Current Can. seed rules?

[arcticjake]

Anybody up on current Can. seed rules? In regards to importation (Can. border services) or possession of (RCMP). At various times in my life I've seeds taken by Can Customs, RCMP, Calgary Police Services and lately Can. Border Services sent me a letter. I've never felt the need to battle these confistications for various reasons but I'm wondering why they care anymore when seeds can be purchased fairly readily.
I'm not trying to discuss any particular vendor or shipping practise just the implications within Canada.

Jake

 

[Chimera]

Rarely prosecuted but technically illegal.

Check the controlled drugs and substances act for specifics. Any part of the cannabis plant is technically illegal- the only exceptions are fiber stalks and non-viable hemp seed.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

 

[Marco Renda]

Well I have to say that the law pertaining to seeds here in Canada will be challenged in the courts real soon. I'm one of the owners of a wholesale seed company and we have been importing seeds into Canada and paying taxes for over 3 years now. Canada Customs & Revenue have NO PROBLEM with our company so much so that they have given IMPORTATION / EXPORTATION BIN #. It's HEALTH CANADA that has the problem with seeds as they want to have a manopoly on seed sales. I have over 7,000 packs of seeds sitting at Pearson Airport that Canada Customs want to release but Health Canada is saying NO. So we are taking Health Canada to court. The RCMP were called when I brought the seeds into Canada and told the folks at Customs that my paperwork was in order and that they will have to deal with Health Canada on this matter.

Take Care and Peace
Marco Renda
Federal Exemptee
Publisher
Treating Yourself
The Alternative Medicine Journal

 

[fatigues]

Cannabis is a controlled drug under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Cannabis is defined in Schedule II of the Act.

Cannabis is defined to include virtually everything related to or derived from the plant, excepting:

but not including
(8) Non–viable Cannabis seed, with the exception of its derivatives
(9)Mature Cannabis stalks that do not include leaves, flowers, seeds or branches; and fiber derived from such stalks

Non-viable seeds are not illegal to sell within Canada or to import or export them according to our law, as they are not "cannabis" under Schedule II of the CDSA. (Note: they may well be defined as "cannabis" and illegal to import/export under the law of another country, i.e., the USA, which leads us to Marc Emery and we know how that story ends.

More recently, Richard Baghdadlian, the owner of Heaven's Stairway and Overgrow.com was fined and sentenced to two years less a day as a non-custodial sentence for import/exporting seeds via OG before it was raided and closed in 2006.

Now, as to what is a viable vs. a non-viable seed? It's impossible to know without attempting to germinate a given seed, isn't it? Accordingly, proving the mental component of the crime -- the intention to possess, traffick, import or export viable seed is extremely difficult if there are only a small number of seeds involved.

But that's about the Crown proving a person's criminal intent over a relatively SMALL number of seeds.

Proving a right to possess a seed that happens to be impounded by the police is another matter. If the Police (or Customs) have the seed but won't give it back, you are essentially left with an action for a mandatory order (replevin) to compel them to release the seeds to you.

While criminal law may require proof of intent in order to be guilty of possession, import, export, trafficking and so forth, a civil motion for the return of property is another matter. In that case, the police will say "it's cannabis, or, on a balance of probabilities, likely to be cannabis" and we aren't giving it to you because it is illegal to import cannabis.

If you have a ATP, you are exempted from prosecution from possession, but the MMAR does not permit you to import or export viable cannabis seeds for any purpose.

While the police can't prosecute you for possession, they CAN prosecute you under the CDSA for importation of cannabis. (Theoretically, a serious offence by the way - that's potentially a life sentence under the CDSA).

While I wish Marco Renda all the best, his case has some inherent difficulties -- and it would appear to be inviting the police to prosecute him for importation of cannabis. While viability of a few given seeds is in doubt, given a number of thousands of seeds? In my opinion, no judge will accept that viability of those seeds - or a portion of them at least -- is in real doubt. And therefore both the act and the requisite criminal intent are present and the crime will be proved by the Crown.

That reasoning would make anybody who imported a large number of seeds in Canada potentially guilty of the offence of importation a Schedule II drug under the CDSA.

I assume that Marco is inviting the charge to challenge the CDSA import prohibition under constitutional grounds analogous to R. v. Parker, where the object of the Charter challenge is that the sale by Health Canada of only one tepid strain of a middle of the road indica is an illogical and unreasonable restriction on patients with an ATP and Personal Production License under the MMAR. Given that certain strains are believed to be better at treating some symptoms, the argument follows that by preventing the importation of a seed strain needed by the patient which Health Canada won't sell, this prohibition is, in turn, a violation of a patient's s. 7 Charter rights.

Thus Marco essentially invites Health Canada to be a Gypsy Nirvana / Seedbay / Attitude Seed Bank reseller

[Note: the argument that one strain is better at treating some symptoms than others is, for the most part, a highly anecdotal and subjective argument without much real scientific evidence or fact. Most of these reputed properties attributed to certain strains in terms of the strain’s different therapeutic value is pretty much, in a word: bullshit on a scientific basis. But "most" does not mean "all" and there is some scientific evidence of a difference between an indica and a sativa high, certainly, because of the differences in the THC and CBD/CBN components. There is also ample and unquestioned evidence concerning relative strengths of certain strains in THC and CBD/CBN. So the strains argument simply in terms of strength may have merit on its own - without getting into whether or not White Berry is, say, better at treating restless leg syndrome than Master Kush might be.]

So, if I had to guess, that argument will probably fly in Court. Note that "probably" is a lawyer's way of saying "maybe not", all while still sounding very encouraging to the client.

Given this current federal government in Ottawa, it's also exceptionally clear that Harper and Co. will appeal any adverse ruling all the way to the SCC before the matter is resolved. Accordingly, you need to be able to dig-in for the long haul on such litigation.

Good luck on the case Marco. Public Interest litigation where there is a potential for a criminal sanction is a long, dangerous and expensive climb.

 

[straintester]

Rarely prosecuted but technically illegal.

Check the controlled drugs and substances act for specifics. Any part of the cannabis plant is technically illegal- the only exceptions are fiber stalks and non-viable hemp seed.

Hope that helps,
-Chimera

YEP!

Cannabis is a controlled drug under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Cannabis is defined in Schedule II of the Act.

Cannabis is defined to include virtually everything related to or derived from the plant, excepting:

Non-viable seeds are not illegal to sell within Canada or to import or export them according to our law, as they are not "cannabis" under Schedule II of the CDSA. (Note: they may well be defined as "cannabis" and illegal to import/export under the law of another country, i.e., the USA, which leads us to Marc Emery and we know how that story ends.

More recently, Richard Baghdadlian, the owner of Heaven's Stairway and Overgrow.com was fined and sentenced to two years less a day as a non-custodial sentence for import/exporting seeds via OG before it was raided and closed in 2006.

Now, as to what is a viable vs. a non-viable seed? It's impossible to know without attempting to germinate a given seed, isn't it? Accordingly, proving the mental component of the crime -- the intention to possess, traffick, import or export viable seed is extremely difficult if there are only a small number of seeds involved.

But that's about the Crown proving a person's criminal intent over a relatively SMALL number of seeds.

Proving a right to possess a seed that happens to be impounded by the police is another matter. If the Police (or Customs) have the seed but won't give it back, you are essentially left with an action for a mandatory order (replevin) to compel them to release the seeds to you.

While criminal law may require proof of intent in order to be guilty of possession, import, export, trafficking and so forth, a civil motion for the return of property is another matter. In that case, the police will say "it's cannabis, or, on a balance of probabilities, likely to be cannabis" and we aren't giving it to you because it is illegal to import cannabis.

If you have a ATP, you are exempted from prosecution from possession, but the MMAR does not permit you to import or export viable cannabis seeds for any purpose.

While the police can't prosecute you for possession, they CAN prosecute you under the CDSA for importation of cannabis. (Theoretically, a serious offence by the way - that's potentially a life sentence under the CDSA).

While I wish Marco Renda all the best, his case has some inherent difficulties -- and it would appear to be inviting the police to prosecute him for importation of cannabis. While viability of a few given seeds is in doubt, given a number of thousands of seeds? In my opinion, no judge will accept that viability of those seeds - or a portion of them at least -- is in real doubt. And therefore both the act and the requisite criminal intent are present and the crime will be proved by the Crown.

That reasoning would make anybody who imported a large number of seeds in Canada potentially guilty of the offence of importation a Schedule II drug under the CDSA.

I assume that Marco is inviting the charge to challenge the CDSA import prohibition under constitutional grounds analogous to R. v. Parker, where the object of the Charter challenge is that the sale by Health Canada of only one tepid strain of a middle of the road indica is an illogical and unreasonable restriction on patients with an ATP and Personal Production License under the MMAR. Given that certain strains are believed to be better at treating some symptoms, the argument follows that by preventing the importation of a seed strain needed by the patient which Health Canada won't sell, this prohibition is, in turn, a violation of a patient's s. 7 Charter rights.

Thus Marco essentially invites Health Canada to be a Gypsy Nirvana / Seedbay / Attitude Seed Bank reseller

[Note: the argument that one strain is better at treating some symptoms than others is, for the most part, a highly anecdotal and subjective argument without much real scientific evidence or fact. Most of these reputed properties attributed to certain strains in terms of the strain’s different therapeutic value is pretty much, in a word: bullshit on a scientific basis. But "most" does not mean "all" and there is some scientific evidence of a difference between an indica and a sativa high, certainly, because of the differences in the THC and CBD/CBN components. There is also ample and unquestioned evidence concerning relative strengths of certain strains in THC and CBD/CBN. So the strains argument simply in terms of strength may have merit on its own - without getting into whether or not White Berry is, say, better at treating restless leg syndrome than Master Kush might be.]

So, if I had to guess, that argument will probably fly in Court. Note that "probably" is a lawyer's way of saying "maybe not", all while still sounding very encouraging to the client.

Given this current federal government in Ottawa, it's also exceptionally clear that Harper and Co. will appeal any adverse ruling all the way to the SCC before the matter is resolved. Accordingly, you need to be able to dig-in for the long haul on such litigation.

Good luck on the case Marco. Public Interest litigation where there is a potential for a criminal sanction is a long, dangerous and expensive climb.

Damn.



I'm speechless and that doesn't happen often

 

[straintester]

You bring up some very good points and are obviously more up to date with the government laws than I am . With that being said, since cannabis is legal to grow for people with exemptions , according to the laws on Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, there needs to be a source for obtaining seeds, besides purchasing them from Health Canada. If you think about it, ALL the people who have obtained these licenses to possess and use this as an alternative medicine, have previously used cannabis grown from various strains globally which is what they based their personal experience on. From this information a doctor prescribes it to the patient.
These people aren’t getting their prescription based on a strain dished out by Health Canada and if this is the case then it would make everybody’s prescription VOID!
People only know the benefits of cannabis through their own personal use and since nobody really knows about Health Canada’s one strain, then how could any doctor possibly prescribe it?
If a carded patient within the MMAR program seeks a grower, how is any grower supposed to know of this information before hand?
The levels of THC in most of todays cannabis strains are far beyond what Health Canada is claiming should be. The maximum potency, according to them being 12.5%.
Its all crushed up into a powder with seeds, stock and all. Quality inspection is as lame as this strain obviously...lol


Since cannabis is legal for some growers but yet nobody in Canada has the right to breed seeds for ‘use of ’ , how are legal growers supposed to obtain seeds?.
Its even against the law to produce seeds as a legal grower but how does a grower possibly prevent this from ever happening? This leads us to licensed made to grow but no legal seeds in which to do so.
The laws in Canada state that legal growers have permission to use seeds but it does not state that the seeds have to be from Health Canada. This seems to be HC’s guidelines which conflict with the actual law. If they are not from Health Canada and nobody in Canada is legally allowed to breed and sell seeds, where are legal growers supposed to obtain their seeds from? Wouldn’t they HAVE to come from outside Canada since breeding seeds in Canada is illegal? Importing seeds is illegal also.
This is a HUGE flaw in their system which desperately needs to be addressed so I would hope that Marco or someone is addressing this issue. A one strain fits all regimen of self medication is also never gonna fly when you truly think about it.
Although I tend to agree that the strain evaluation is pumped up far more than needed , but this is partially how the medical marijuana movement proceeded forward. Research needed to be done to prove that cannabis can relieve certain disorders and if WE, as patients, cannot experiment, how are we EVER going to progress? It was because of THIS very reason that got people their cards.
Nobody tried Health Canada’s one strain cannabis, went to their doctor and said they have had such relief from this one strain that they just HAD to have it.
Even if HC wanted it to pan out this way, it can’t legally be accomplished so they sort of screwed themselves in this regard, if you follow what I am saying.

It does all boil down to Health Canada’s prohibition against other strains being a violation of a patients rights.
I’m not a doctor, lawyer or scientist nor do I work for anyone related in the MMJ industry but do KNOW that strain selection is crucial for any grower in order to care for a patient properly. There can be a significant difference between a trippy sativa and a sedative indica which is why there are professionals in the cannabis industry.
Health Canada NOT being one of them but if they have issued licenses for other Canadians to act as professionals in the health care industry, then they need to be more realistic otherwise they could have many others wanting to sue them.

One thing anyone wishing to obtain a license in Canada may want to do is to educate their doctor on what strains work best for their certain disorders and have the prescription written as such. If the license is for 4 grams per day the doctor could ask that 35 % be sativa crosses and 65% be a variety of indica crosses to ENSURE that they are receiving the 'correct' prescription. This is one way to stop HC from monopolizing the patients in Canada who are relying on this medicine for one reason or another.

Having licensed growers but no legal seeds is just retarded.

Here is the only legal seed in Canada according to Health Canada

Specifically they describe their strain as: "The production line MS-17/338 consists of female Cannabis sativa L. 'Indica' and is described as moderate in height (90-120 cm) with a moderate degree of branching (10-15 side branches) from the main stalk. The main stalk terminates in a dense, conical, resin laden flowering head of an average length of 25-45 cm."

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/marihuana/supply-approvis/index-eng.php



NOTE: I am neither for or against Marco's actions in regards to this but was pointing out these facts out of principle and common sense alone.

 

[fatigues]

These people aren’t getting their prescription based on a strain dished out by Health Canada and if this is the case then it would make everybody’s prescription VOID!

Uhm....No. Who said that?

First off, while a doctor could, theoretically, write a prescription for marijuana in Canada - they don't. Nor is there any drug store that could fill it if they did.

Signing a MMAR form is not a prescription.

The fact that a person with a MMAR card is growing Super Lemon Haze is not, in itself, contrary to the regulation. It's not illegal for a person to buy an ounce of Super Lemon Haze off of a local dealer either (not that this strain is generally available from any dealer, but, if it was).

Now, it's illegal for a dealer to traffick in marijuana - but it isn't illegal for a person with an ATP to buy it.

The levels of THC in most of today’s cannabis strains are far beyond what Health Canada is claiming should be. The maximum potency, according to them being 12.5%.
Its all crushed up into a powder with seeds, stock and all. Quality inspection is as lame as this strain obviously...lol

Sounds to me like you are buying into some of the propaganda about how bad Health Canada's weed is. It's not that bad - it's actually almost decent weed. I've bought far worse from dealers. It is, most assuredly, not schwag or anything close to "downtown brown".

It's a little better than "mids" in California dispensary slang, as Health Canda's weed is not grown outdoors.

That said, it is also clearly not top shelf meds either. It does happen to be pre-ground, so there is some settling and more kief than you would prefer ends up near the bottom of the bag. It's not that big a deal - but it is less than ideal, to be sure.

Since cannabis is legal for some growers but yet nobody in Canada has the right to breed seeds for ‘use of ’ , how are legal growers supposed to obtain seeds?.

Who said that? If you have a personal production license, it is completely legal for you to breed your own seed.

Its even against the law to produce seeds as a legal grower but how does a grower possibly prevent this from ever happening?

Uhm... No. It isn't. Who said that?

The laws in Canada state that legal growers have permission to use seeds but it does not state that the seeds have to be from Health Canada. This seems to be HC’s guidelines which conflict with the actual law.

No. Look, you are getting confused here. Health Canada well knows that the vast majority of people with an ATP/PPL are not going to be buying seeds from them.

But if they didn't offer viable seeds for sale, it would be a hole in the system and they'd be in litigation over it as another reason the CDSA should be suspended for violations of s. 7 of the Charter. So Health Canada does the bare minimum to comply with that potential argument arising out of R. v. Parker on analogous grounds.

It all comes down to this: the Federal Government in Canada does not WANT to be growing weed and they don't WANT to be selling it. But they have no choice, as the Courts essentially forced them into doing so against their will.

Given that the Federal Government feels that they must do this to comply with the Courts' orders, they do so only to the extent they are required to do it. No more. On a policy level, one of the biggest "political" aspects of the Federal Government's program is to deter "diversion" of government grown weed/seeds from ending up on the black market and resold by patients. Government of Canada weed is therefore designed not to be especially attractive to street buyers. The same approach has been taken with governent seeds, too. They don't want to carry every line that Gypsy Nirvana or every seed Bank in B.C. or Ontario sells.

That's why they sell pre-ground bud from a middle of the road indica. It's not top shelf because they don't want it to be. It's pre-ground because very few people will buy pre-ground weed. They sell only one seed strain because they don't want to be selling seeds at all -- but given that they feel they are forced to -- what they sell is essentially Prairie Medical's version of a middlin of the road NL#5, non-feminized seed. That's it and that's all.

On the plus side, it's only 66 cents a seed (a pack of thirty for $20 plus HST) and it's really not that bad. Grow it well, you'll have decent smoke. The best? No. Connoisseur grade weed? Hell no. Better than outdoor grown beasters? Hell yes.

It does all boil down to Health Canada’s prohibition against other strains being a violation of a patients’ rights.

No, they don't prohibit a particular strain. They just don't sell it. That's not the same thing - that's a distinction with a difference. If a MMAR card holder gets hold of seeds they would prefer to grow, nothing is stopping them from doing so. No patient has ever been charged for importing viable seeds -- so it is a difficult law to have declared void on constitutional grounds as it remains (for the most part) a law that is not used and so is rarely challenged.

I’m not a doctor, lawyer or scientist nor do I work for anyone related in the MMJ industry but do KNOW that strain selection is crucial for any grower in order to care for a patient properly. There can be a significant difference between a trippy sativa and a sedative indica which is why there are professionals in the cannabis industry.

I don't know about that. I admit it is very (and probably extremely) likely to be so. But I'm not aware of any clinical studies which demonstrate -- on a scientific basis -- that there is a difference, let alone what that difference might be.

To be sure, it's a chicken and egg situation. If the only weed that scientists can use in their testing is government grown weed, and the government grows only one type of weed, it's just not possible to obtain the scientific data necessary to compare the effects of certain strains relative to each other, is it?

While that conundrum is rather plain, it's a bit of a leap to then say that the scientific literature supports findings of a particular strain being more useful to treat a given symptom than another. There really is no scientific evidence of that at all. It's all subjective and highly anecdotal evidence. Some of it is doubtless true -- but most of it is bullshit when evaluated on a scientific basis.

One thing anyone wishing to obtain a license in Canada may want to do is to educate their doctor on what strains work best for their certain disorders and have the prescription written as such.

Once again, doctors in Canada do not write prescriptions for marijuana. They could, if they chose to -- but they don't. Accordingly, what you suggest is simply not practical advice.

If the license is for 4 grams per day the doctor could ask that 35 % be sativa crosses and 65% be a variety of indica crosses to ENSURE that they are receiving the 'correct' prescription.

Well I suppose a doctor could do that. And if the doctor did that, then I suppose that might be evidence which a court could look to in support of ordering some sort of relief or mandatory order. If it was backed up by some form of study or other expert evidence that was accepted by the Court, I think it likely that evidence might fly too and be accepted as "fact" for the purposes of that case.

The point is, however, that none of this conjecture has actually happened in a real case.

Having licensed growers but no legal seeds is just retarded.

Again, you are overstating the effect of the law. I think it's also fair to say that there are about 4,000 licensed growers in Canada - and a miniscule minority of them are growing the seeds received from Health Canada. Clearly, they are getting their seeds anyway.

Hell, at one point, Health Canada was informally directing people who inquired to purchase seeds from Marc Emery and Heaven's Gate. Ironic, (if not plainly hypocritical) isn't it?

Here is the only legal seed in Canada according to Health Canada

Again, you are overstating the case. It's the only seed you can buy from Health Canada. If you otherwise get ahold of seeds from a seed bank in Canada (of which there are many) there is nothing "illegal" about that viable seed once it is in the licensed patient's hands. So... while the situation could clearly use some cleaning up, on balance, it's not that it is an entirely unliveable situation.

Now, if the seed banks suddenly started getting busted? Different story. But that has not happened (yet).

More to the point, where can a patient buy an off the shelf clone in Canada? It's nowhere near as easy as it should be to do that. From the few sources that do exist -- they are ridiculously expensive, too.

I'd rather see a fight about making clones available, than seeds. But that's a rather tangential point, I suppose.

It does appear that one seed bank which Marco is involved with has had inventory they imported confiscated by Canada Customs. Nobody has been charged over it, but the expense to purchase "thousands of seeds" -- presumably from coffee shops in Netherlands or from seed sellers in the U.K. -- is very considerable. Might be 30-60k in capital tied up in that inventory.

I would personally love to see Marco proceed and succeed with his action. However, I'm realistic enough to know that the risks are high, the cost is significant and the time, energy and commitment involved in carrying that action all the way through to the finish line is a weighty task indeed; it should not be undertaken lightly.

 

[Marco Renda]

My wholesale seed distribution company has been issued a Permit to IMPORT / EXPORT Marijuana Seeds and it's issued by Canada Customs & Revenue. We have a BIN # and pay taxes on all of our sales.

Take Care and Peace
Marco

 

[Marco Renda]

It does appear that one seed bank which Marco is involved with has had inventory they imported confiscated by Canada Customs. Nobody has been charged over it, but the expense to purchase "thousands of seeds" -- presumably from coffee shops in Netherlands or from seed sellers in the U.K. -- is very considerable. Might be 30-60k in capital tied up in that inventory.

I would personally love to see Marco proceed and succeed with his action. However, I'm realistic enough to know that the risks are high, the cost is significant and the time, energy and commitment involved in carrying that action all the way through to the finish line is a weighty task indeed; it should not be undertaken lightly.

It's alot more that 60k that's for sure!

Both my business partner and I are commited to proceding with this to the very end. Our lawyer has already filed the paperwork with the courts so we are definitely moving forward with our legal action against Health Canada.

I have been involved in legal battles against Health Canada in the past so I am well aware at what is involved. The only way to get things done here in Canada is through the courts as the SPINELESS POLITICIANS refuse to do what is right.

Take Care and Peace
Marco

 

[straintester]

Fatigues- As I mentioned you are more up to pare with the rules and regulations and your mind works quick so I dont have a response at the moment but of course WILL have one later.

YES I am most confused AND frustrated between the marijuana laws and HC guidelines.
Some of the guidelines are written right ON our licenses so how as a grower are we not to be confused?
Its not like there is a site where we can get all of this information
so I REALLY appreciate this discussion.

 

[straintester]

Uhm....No. Who said that?

First off, while a doctor could, theoretically, write a prescription for marijuana in Canada - they don't. Nor is there any drug store that could fill it if they did.

Signing a MMAR form is not a prescription.

The fact that a person with a MMAR card is growing Super Lemon Haze is not, in itself, contrary to the regulation. It's not illegal for a person to buy an ounce of Super Lemon Haze off of a local dealer either (not that this strain is generally available from any dealer, but, if it was).

Now, it's illegal for a dealer to traffick in marijuana - but it isn't illegal for a person with an ATP to buy it.



Sounds to me like you are buying into some of the propaganda about how bad Health Canada's weed is. It's not that bad - it's actually almost decent weed. I've bought far worse from dealers. It is, most assuredly, not schwag or anything close to "downtown brown".

It's a little better than "mids" in California dispensary slang, as Health Canda's weed is not grown outdoors.

That said, it is also clearly not top shelf meds either. It does happen to be pre-ground, so there is some settling and more kief than you would prefer ends up near the bottom of the bag. It's not that big a deal - but it is less than ideal, to be sure.



Who said that? If you have a personal production license, it is completely legal for you to breed your own seed.





Prescription is a common term that most people use whether it is technically correct or not. The only reason we were allowed to have this right to possess this is due to the fact that a doctor signed a form stating so. No?
Most people who have applied to get an exemption have tried illegal cannabis grown throughout the world. Todays market has strains above 12.5 % and since there is now the technology to prove this, some seed breeders actually have it tested as proof. When the patient applies to HC many of them are told that HC's standards are the ones that they have to follow to obtain anything legally. By this I mean either cannabis or seeds. According to HC if their strain is the only legal one that is available in Canada, then it would make everyone's license void because nobody grows or uses it.
Of course once any seed is in a licensed growers hand , then it is legal so why does it matter where the seed came from?
If the patient has been medicating themselves with strain xyz and it is what the doctor is evaluating the patients prescription on then why can't those seeds be legally available in Canada?
The doctors evaluation isn't based on Health Canadas strain. Its the patients strain of choice.
My point being that if there are patients across Canada who are legal growers then why do we still all have to purchase seeds from illegal seed banks?
Wouldn't Canada want to profit from the revenue it would have the potential to bring in?

You are the only person I have ever met who has claimed that HC's strain isn't that bad and almost decent so it makes me wonder what types of strains you usually have.
With your knowledge about the Canadian laws etc., you astonished me but then when i read this my heart sank.
Are you serious?
I should grow it to try?
No thank you! I might not be up to snuff on the law vs guidelines but this I don't think you could convince me of.
You compare it to outdoor grow from california.
To my knowledge I haven't tried any but from the pictures and what i have seen at this forum I find that most difficult to believe. Some of them have a variety of top notch strains that look to be grown and cared for beautifully.
My own outdoor strains would be better than their stuff and I do realize that indoor grow is preferred and usually better that outdoor grow which is why it is worth more but that isn't to say it is a rule. Its certainly cleaner and from a more controlled environment making it more appealing but thats not to say that it is better. Its personal choice I suppose.


The breeding of seeds was what I was the most confused about because it states with the guidelines that we are not supposed to breed, import or export seeds or sell them.
I thought that meant we were not allowed to breed any of our own seeds to create our own strains.
If this is the case then why can't Canada allow people who are seed breeders to sell them?
If a grower works on a strain to help their patient and it works extremely well then why not allow these people the legal right to do this? This would further research for the medical marijuana movement as well as helping the economy. That way people would be more willing to purchase seeds within Canada.
If HC suggests going only to Canadian seed banks to get seeds and yet they are all illegal, isn't this sort of hypocritical?
Just like many patients have been directed to compassion clubs and yet they are illegal.





No. Look, you are getting confused here. Health Canada well knows that the vast majority of people with an ATP/PPL are not going to be buying seeds from them.

But if they didn't offer viable seeds for sale, it would be a hole in the system and they'd be in litigation over it as another reason the CDSA should be suspended for violations of s. 7 of the Charter. So Health Canada does the bare minimum to comply with that potential argument arising out of R. v. Parker on analogous grounds.

It all comes down to this: the Federal Government in Canada does not WANT to be growing weed and they don't WANT to be selling it. But they have no choice, as the Courts essentially forced them into doing so against their will.

Given that the Federal Government feels that they must do this to comply with the Courts' orders, they do so only to the extent they are required to do it. No more. On a policy level, one of the biggest "political" aspects of the Federal Government's program is to deter "diversion" of government grown weed/seeds from ending up on the black market and resold by patients. Government of Canada weed is therefore designed not to be especially attractive to street buyers. The same approach has been taken with governent seeds, too. They don't want to carry every line that Gypsy Nirvana or every seed Bank in B.C. or Ontario sells.

That's why they sell pre-ground bud from a middle of the road indica. It's not top shelf because they don't want it to be. It's pre-ground because very few people will buy pre-ground weed. They sell only one seed strain because they don't want to be selling seeds at all -- but given that they feel they are forced to -- what they sell is essentially Prairie Medical's version of a middlin of the road NL#5, non-feminized seed. That's it and that's all.

The history of medical marijuana and how it came about makes sense to me. The goverment just did not want it around so made getting these licenses most difficult purposefully. Anybody finding their way down this path is soon to discover this but this is now 2010.
Like you mentioned, there are thousands of card holders but not that many growers. If they don't want to do this then why make it so difficult for growers? Why can't the government allow licensed growers to supply the meds for the people who do not want to grow? Surely there are enough professional people in the MMJ business that this entire thing could be taken off their hands.


On the plus side, it's only 66 cents a seed (a pack of thirty for $20 plus HST) and it's really not that bad. Grow it well, you'll have decent smoke. The best? No. Connoisseur grade weed? Hell no. Better than outdoor grown beasters? Hell yes.



No, they don't prohibit a particular strain. They just don't sell it. That's not the same thing - that's a distinction with a difference. If a MMAR card holder gets hold of seeds they would prefer to grow, nothing is stopping them from doing so. No patient has ever been charged for importing viable seeds -- so it is a difficult law to have declared void on constitutional grounds as it remains (for the most part) a law that is not used and so is rarely challenged.



I don't know about that. I admit it is very (and probably extremely) likely to be so. But I'm not aware of any clinical studies which demonstrate -- on a scientific basis -- that there is a difference, let alone what that difference might be.

To be sure, it's a chicken and egg situation. If the only weed that scientists can use in their testing is government grown weed, and the government grows only one type of weed, it's just not possible to obtain the scientific data necessary to compare the effects of certain strains relative to each other, is it?

While that conundrum is rather plain, it's a bit of a leap to then say that the scientific literature supports findings of a particular strain being more useful to treat a given symptom than another. There really is no scientific evidence of that at all. It's all subjective and highly anecdotal evidence. Some of it is doubtless true -- but most of it is bullshit when evaluated on a scientific basis.

Once again this is where there seems to be a big discreptency between the law and Health Canada and now after what you wrote, it makes MUCH more sense. They didn't want a good seed strain because they did not want it too appealing.
Ok if that is what they were going for then they did VERY well.
You see many of us who asked about seed strain selection were told directly from HC that their seed strain was the only one we were legally allowed to grow. Recently it even got to the point where patients inquiring about inspections were told to have their receipts ready to show proof of sale but not one of them have had this happen to them. I wasn't sure whether to take this seriously or not.
Now they seem to be purposefully stalling people's licenses.
At first when people would call to inquire and or complain they were told that each time they call it will delay their license even further.
If you were a grower you were told to cut down your plants since you do not have a license.
To me this is totally unacceptable and seems deliberately done to scare peope away from growing which I find appauling.
If the government was forced to get us licenses so we can grow for ourselves or the sick and dying patients of Canada, then isn't this tactic of stalling putting us in harms way and should they not be accountable?
Who needs this kind of pressure?
As far as I am concerned, the doctor has signed all the correct forms and they are in so this is completely out of my hands.
If HC is doing this on purpose to cause problems for us, isn't this against the law somehow?
It just seems wrong in so many ways.


Once again, doctors in Canada do not write prescriptions for marijuana. They could, if they chose to -- but they don't. Accordingly, what you suggest is simply not practical advice.

Well I suppose a doctor could do that. And if the doctor did that, then I suppose that might be evidence which a court could look to in support of ordering some sort of relief or mandatory order. If it was backed up by some form of study or other expert evidence that was accepted by the Court, I think it likely that evidence might fly too and be accepted as "fact" for the purposes of that case.

The point is, however, that none of this conjecture has actually happened in a real case.

Again, you are overstating the effect of the law. I think it's also fair to say that there are about 4,000 licensed growers in Canada - and a miniscule minority of them are growing the seeds received from Health Canada. Clearly, they are getting their seeds anyway.

Hell, at one point, Health Canada was informally directing people who inquired to purchase seeds from Marc Emery and Heaven's Gate. Ironic, (if not plainly hypocritical) isn't it?

Again, you are overstating the case. It's the only seed you can buy from Health Canada. If you otherwise get ahold of seeds from a seed bank in Canada (of which there are many) there is nothing "illegal" about that viable seed once it is in the licensed patient's hands. So... while the situation could clearly use some cleaning up, on balance, it's not that it is an entirely unliveable situation.

Now, if the seed banks suddenly started getting busted? Different story. But that has not happened (yet).

More to the point, where can a patient buy an off the shelf clone in Canada? It's nowhere near as easy as it should be to do that. From the few sources that do exist -- they are ridiculously expensive, too.

I'd rather see a fight about making clones available, than seeds. But that's a rather tangential point, I suppose.

It does appear that one seed bank which Marco is involved with has had inventory they imported confiscated by Canada Customs. Nobody has been charged over it, but the expense to purchase "thousands of seeds" -- presumably from coffee shops in Netherlands or from seed sellers in the U.K. -- is very considerable. Might be 30-60k in capital tied up in that inventory.

I would personally love to see Marco proceed and succeed with his action. However, I'm realistic enough to know that the risks are high, the cost is significant and the time, energy and commitment involved in carrying that action all the way through to the finish line is a weighty task indeed; it should not be undertaken lightly.

The reason why I suggested people ask their doctor to make their prescription more specific is because I felt it might broaden the field in allowing acceptible research done for other strains. Its the same as people asking their doctor to increase their prescription for the use of edibles.
Many people do not like to smoke their meds and prefer to eat them. Most doctors prefer their patients to medicate themselves this way as it is less harmful and yet there are rules and guidelines to this also that are quite inconsistent.
Many are told that they cannot make canna treats or any by products of any kind and yet last year I saw a program on television about a guy from out west who grew his own plants, made canna butter and sold it.
If they could make a television progam out of this then why is it ok for some people and not others?

I also wish the best of luck to Marco regarding his seeds.

Thanks for clearing some of this up for me.
I'd written this out yesterday but lost it since my connection timed out.

 

[Snowberry]

Luck to Marco on your court battle.

My two cents....Buy a $20.00 packet of Manitoba hole in the ground beans, toss em and get the genetics that work best for you.

Most you are gonna get is a $200.00 fine if you are buying small lots, even from overseas.

Been there, done that.

 

[fatigues]

Many are told that they cannot make canna treats or any by products of any kind and yet last year I saw a program on television about a guy from out west who grew his own plants, made canna butter and sold it.
If they could make a television progam out of this then why is it ok for some people and not others?

First: just because Watermelon shows you how to make cannabudder online does not make it legal. It just makes it her crime and not yours, ok? That's it; that's all. No greater mystery to it than that.

I am not going to go through your comments one by one. What I stated in my first post is the law, I assure you. I cannot comment on anecdotal stories of what patients have supposedly been told by Health Canada or not. Even if true, that doesn't make it the law -- it just makes it some civil servant's comment over the phone.

All I can tell you is what the law is and what it isn't. Health Canada may have a view; they may not. Their "view", in terms of what the actual law is, is irrelevant. Or more to the point, not binding on the Courts.

I did want to comment, however, on one point. You mentioned that Health Canada says that people are not authorized to make budder or other extracts under the MMAR. Health Canada is correct. The MMAR, as drafted, does not permit someone with an ATP or a PPL to make an extraction, infusion, cannabudder nor, most especially, iso, or bubble hash or any other form of resin extract.

So Health Canada is being perfectly correct in that advice and caution under the MMAR.

Now, that said, in my view, if any patient were to be charged with unlawfully making cannabudder under an ATP, that charge would be thrown out in a heartbeat by the Court and that aspect of the MMAR would be declared unconstitutional pursuant to s. 7 of the Charter in a matter of seconds. There isn't much a wise lawyer will guarantee -- but I would guarantee that.

The form signed by the doctor under the MMAR has a recommendation for grams per day and method of taking it, via inhalation or ingestion. Seeing as cannabis is not even digestible unless the Delta-9 THC is rendered readily digestible by first binding it to a fat or some other oil , the ridiculousness of that aspect of the MMAR is absolutely clear on its face.

Make no mistake -- Health Canada KNOWS that the current regulation concerning extracts does not have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving constitutional scrutiny. It is plainly and obviously nonsensical and conflicts with the doctor's recommendation on their own goddamned form. Every lawyer in government and in private practice who is familiar with the MMAR knows that aspect of the MMAR is overwhelmingly likely to be declared unconsitutional after 30 seconds of judicial scrutiny -- and probably less.

That's why nobody has been charged for a violation of an ATP for having an extract or infusion - and why nobody is ever likely to be charged (for that reason alone), imo.

Why does the Government do it? Because the Government of Canada does not WANT to be "fair and co-operative" about this. The Courts forced them to do this -- and the Government does not like doing it one little bit. So like a spoiled brat, they resist compliance with the spirit of the Court Orders and obey each of them only to the letter of the Order; that far -- no further (and sometimes -- not even that). The Government of Canada must be fought kicking and screaming on the MMAR almost every step of the way.

 

[Reverend Mojo]

Like everything having to do with cannabis.....viable seeds are illegal in Canada.

Like everything having to do with cannabis, it is also highly politically charged.



Let me be for jebus sake! I just grow a damm plant and smoke it to myself!!! I've never hurt a person in my life and I never will! I'm NOT a criminal!!!!!!!!! WTF is wrong with people!

 

[Marco Renda]

Make no mistake -- Health Canada KNOWS that the current regulation concerning extracts does not have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving constitutional scrutiny. It is plainly and obviously nonsensical and conflicts with the doctor's recommendation on their own goddamned form. Every lawyer in government and in private practice who is familiar with the MMAR knows that aspect of the MMAR is overwhelmingly likely to be declared unconsitutional after 30 seconds of judicial scrutiny -- and probably less.

That's why nobody has been charged for a violation of an ATP for having an extract or infusion - and why nobody is ever likely to be charged (for that reason alone)

Well back in 2005 when I was raided they found 2 babyfood jars filled with ISO OIL and 2 oz of ICE WATER HASH.

I was charged with possession for the purpose of trafficking for those. I was also charged with 3 counts of exportation and trafficking.

When I went to court I plead NOT GUILTY to all counts.

To make a long story short they dropped the charges in order for me to plead GUILTY to PUBLIC MISCHIEF misuse of the postal service without authorization. I got a $2000 fine and 2 years probation

Now I wanted to fight the Oil and Hash charges but they wouldn't let me.

I was helping med patients all over the globe back then with FREE Meds , seeds , etc who couldn't afford to purchase and those that could I gave them meds for $150oz

Take Care and Peace
Marco

 

[fatigues]

Well back in 2005 when I was raided they found 2 babyfood jars filled with ISO OIL and 2 oz of ICE WATER HASH.

I was charged with possession for the purpose of trafficking for those. I was also charged with 3 counts of exportation and trafficking.

When I went to court I plead NOT GUILTY to all counts.

To make a long story short they dropped the charges in order for me to plead GUILTY to PUBLIC MISCHIEF misuse of the postal service without authorization. I got a $2000 fine and 2 years probation

Now I wanted to fight the Oil and Hash charges but they wouldn't let me.

Well - by "not letting you" you mean that it was a global plea bargain? You could have rejected the plea bargain offer and have fought it if you wanted to Marco - albeit at great personal risk to your own liberty and at great financial and emotional cost, too.

I'm not saying your choice was unreasonable (FAR from it as it sounds like the right call to me), but there is no "letting you" fight it.

[yoda]You fight or you don't; there is no "let". [/yoda].

You made a choice, right?

To be clear, my reference in the prior post regarding constututionality was with respect to knocking out that aspect of the MMAR as it relates to cannabudder. Hash or any other resin concentrate is a different matter and I don't think the court is nearly as likely to knock out that aspect of the MMAR for that reason.

Doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Simply that when it comes to budder and its use in medical marijuana, that's a no brainer. Hash? Not the same thing (even though the text of the MMAR itself as it relates to failing to allow for making budder is the same as its falure for providing for hash).

Is that a reasonable distinction for the court to make? Probably not. It's the same active ingredient, after all. Problem is, there isn't much concerning the prohibition of marijuana that is rational.

The problem with prohibition and any sentencing guidelines tied to or based upon weight of the drug in question is that such guidelines tend to always promote a refining and concentration of the active ingredient in the prohibited drug for profit/risk assessment reasons.

When alcohol was prohibited, the smuggling and selling action was in overproof Rum and Whiskey. Not because people suddenly took a preference to 151 Rum, but because it was a smaller and more refined volume of the illegal substance. It was therefore easier to ship, easier to hide and easier to deliver.

The same with hash. For reasons that are not especially clear, hash (and especially hash oil) became the drug of choice in Canada in the late 70s and early 80s. Because the public really doesn't understand what hash actually is and how it's made, the sentencing principles of the court treat hash differently than bud -- and appear to do so on a reasonable basis to the average Jane.

It's not rational -- but it is still true nevertheless.

Street level hash also tends to be imported across the oceans and is usually not marketed from mom & pop home gro-ops.

Budder, however, as it related to the use of MMJ is another matter entirely.