Wanna Ask The Old Farts A Question?

[hoosierdaddy]

foaf,
I would consider tying them down to keep them within the light. You can also smash the stalk and bend it down, which I would prefer to do over nipping a top.

I have found that flowering out long winded plants from seed produces some fantastic results. Better than I ever expected.

SSH that had to be tied down in cab. Ended up near 7' tall.

I bred that SSH to an angel dust and grew these out 12/12 from seed. Both were about 2ft tall at finish.

 

[Billy Burroughs]

lol yeah i love beat era authors what can i say but i just dont see the ufo's going anywhere and they were name brands that i used just very bad results even vegn under a shop fluro sux but having 3 1000 watt HPS lights in flower room and co2 makes up for where they lack though

 

[stagger lee]

IMO theres really no need to smash the stalk when bendind it. If anything that would stress and constrict the flow of nutrients ect..my sis doesnt think the smashing stalk technique worked well on the SSH in first pic. And Billy Ive enjoyed a few W Burroughs books years ago....(if what you meant by beat era authors?)

 

[Gold123]

IMO theres really no need to smash the stalk when bendind it. If anything that would stress and constrict the flow of nutrients ect.. And no offense but that SSH doesnt look very happy/healthy in the garden pic.is this after using the smashing stalk technique. did it get overfert'd or what? And Billy Ive enjoyed a few W Burroughs books years ago....(if what you meant by beat era authors?)

Am I correct, didn't Stagger Lee shoot Billy?

 

[stagger lee]

yeah, but he also had the finest females around! depending on what version(I like G Deads)in the end stagger took one in the balls though!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

IMO theres really no need to smash the stalk when bendind it. If anything that would stress and constrict the flow of nutrients ect..

If you do some study on the procedure of "supercropping" you will find that when a stalk is smashed, it is a stress that the plant responds to in a very quick manner. Hormones are rushed to the point of the damage (where you smashed and bent the stalk) and they work very quickly to heal the wound. As a result the stalk will actually go into an overdrive of sorts, and all the buds will see an increased vigor, due mostly to the flush of hormonal material that gets sent to the area.

Besides, if you do not smash the stalk, it will not stay where you put it no how..no way..unless you tie or weight it to keep it there. Smashing it allows you to make it stay where you want it.

The response of a freshly supercropped plant is so fast and robust that you will have a hard time keeping many strains bent. You will see them knuckle up and start to straighten up overnight. Just force it back down for a day or two and it will stay. The wound will be about twice the size as it was before. It actually allows a far better flow of things as a result. The buds on the bent stalk will all now be competing for top spot and will be larger than they would have been.

Trust me...it is a hard thing to do to damage a perfectly good stalk so close to the top colas. Suck it up and go for it. The results are well worth it. It is a wonderful tool in our box.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

..my sis doesnt think the smashing stalk technique worked well on the SSH in first pic.

Well, tell you sis that it wasn't an example of supercropping. That SSH was tied and had weights hanging on it to train it.

 

[HempKat]

Aloha B.B.

Really sorry to hear that.

Maybe you're doing it wrong.



To be fair, this was not grown with a UFO.
Most of the UFO knockoffs truly suck.
And the good ones are just adequate.

I don't use UFOs myself, but I do have a friend that grows excellent meds with 2 of them.

Prolly 'cause he's a rank beginner and had less to "un-learn".

One can not treat leds like shop lights, or HPS!
They are very different animals.

They require a different style of growing from what most of us are used to.
Very easy to overwater, over fert and over light.

Hence the bleaching and stunting.

And that, was the original question that got my attention.

So, I answered it, and may have prevented the asker from overlighting, and thus "proving", that all leds are crap.

Not selling anything, jus' statin' facts.
If I had cheap electricity, I'd be using HIDs.

Thanks for your input, B. B.
(I've read Burroughs).

In spite of my jape, I do take you seriously but I find your conclusion unacceptable.

Bottom line?
It's all information.

Warm aloha
Wee zard

So by what you're saying here, I take it that if you're used to working with the space needed for a 1000W light and you're comfortable with how plants respond to that much light. In addition if you like the yields you get then you'll probably be unhappy switching to LED's, even if you like the money you save on energy use and not having to deal with too much heat? Does that about sum it up?

I say that because if you have to water less and fert less the plant will likely grow less, even if it's getting as much energy from the LED's as a 1000W HID. Which would make sense because the problem I've always seen in then is they're inability to radiate as much energy or to put it another way, lack of penetration.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking LED's they sound like a great solution if you're willing to rethink growing. I mean they sound ideal for micro grows and their lack of heat and low energy consumption make them very very attractive for stealth purposes. I'd say from all I've heard that their biggest problem right now is cost because it follows the typical pricing of new technology. If it can get to the point of being dirt cheap where someone can throw a whole mess of them into a medium sized room loaded with 1 foot plants then maybe. Or if energy costs get so riddiculously high that we're forced to conserve wherever possible then maybe but for now it only seems like a suitable replacement for CFL's but not HID's if you can handle the needs of a HID (energy costs and temperature control).

 

[Weezard]

Thanks fo' da soapbox, my friend.

Thanks fo' da soapbox, my friend.

So by what you're saying here, I take it that if you're used to working with the space needed for a 1000W light and you're comfortable with how plants respond to that much light. In addition if you like the yields you get then you'll probably be unhappy switching to LED's, even if you like the money you save on energy use and not having to deal with too much heat? Does that about sum it up?

Yes sir. that sums it up very well.

I say that because if you have to water less and fert less the plant will likely grow less, even if it's getting as much energy from the LED's as a 1000W HID. Which would make sense because the problem I've always seen in then is they're inability to radiate as much energy or to put it another way, lack of penetration.

The lower transpiration results from less heat actually, and is a direct cause of the lower fert needs.
With less heat/transpiration, yes growth is slower, but not by much.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking LED's they sound like a great solution if you're willing to rethink growing.

Bingo! Spot on!

Mr Burroughs, it seems treated, them like shop lights.
That is, he had them way too close to the tops.
Fluorescents need to be very close.
An inch or two.
A decent UFO at the same distance will do just what he observed, it will stop growth, and bleach the tops.


I mean they sound ideal for micro grows and their lack of heat and low energy consumption make them very very attractive for stealth purposes. I'd say from all I've heard that their biggest problem right now is cost because it follows the typical pricing of new technology.

Amen to that!
Had to build my own to afford it at all.
We pay north of $ .50 per KWH. here so it's well worth it, for me. They amortized first grow.

If it can get to the point of being dirt cheap where someone can throw a whole mess of them into a medium sized room loaded with 1 foot plants then maybe.

Well, that's one way to do it, but...
(Actually Oldmac did exactly that and outgrew his 1000W HPS with a lower wattage of leds)

Or if energy costs get so riddiculously high that we're forced to conserve wherever possible

I think that, is inevitable.

then maybe but for now it only seems like a suitable replacement for CFL's but not HID's if you can handle the needs of a HID (energy costs and temperature control).

"the problem I've always seen in then is they're inability to radiate as much energy or to put it another way, lack of penetration. "

I must address this.

"Penetration" is no more, or less than HIDs or any small source light.

Here's why;
If you use a cfl, or any underpowered light, it will have to be quite close to the crown in order to reach saturation,
If saturation is at, say, 2" and is a relative point source with say a 180 degree spread.
The Inverse Square Law then says that at 4" you will only have 1/4 the intensity. And at 8" distance 1/4th of that, or 1/16 the relative intensity!
So growing tall is not really an option with weak lights that need to be that close to the plants.

Great for scrog.

If your leds are strong enough, to saturate at 12" from the crown your 1/4 strength point is then 24" and 1/16 strength is at 4 feet!

And this at frequencies that plants absorb and use with the most efficiency.
Less light gets wasted and fewer watts are converted to radiated heat.

The farther your lights are from the crown of the plants at full saturation, the better will be ones "penetration".
Bottom line, stronger lights grow taller meds.

The UFOs are bottom of the line and most use 1W. emitters.
Adequate, but not great.

The better, lights use 3W. emitters at 660nm. red and 420 - 460 nm. blue. They can grow some serious bud.
(Google "Str8outtaweed")

I use 15W. emitters and I'm very happy with them
I saturate at about 14" and usually run it at 18"
Now were talkin good size bushes, under LED.
I'm down to 1/4 strength at 2 ' 4"!


If we were using white light, saturation/bleaching would occur at >91K LUX.
Double the distance and we still have more that 22.5K LUX.
That will grow some fine bud.

Mahalo nui Hempkat.
Nice of you to let me run off at the mouth in your thread.

Aloha,
Weezard

 

[HempKat]

I must address this.

"Penetration" is no more, or less than HIDs or any small source light.

Here's why;
If you use a cfl, or any underpowered light, it will have to be quite close to the crown in order to reach saturation,
If saturation is at, say, 2" and is a relative point source with say a 180 degree spread.
The Inverse Square Law then says that at 4" you will only have 1/4 the intensity. And at 8" distance 1/4th of that, or 1/16 the relative intensity!
So growing tall is not really an option with weak lights that need to be that close to the plants.

Great for scrog.

If your leds are strong enough, to saturate at 12" from the crown your 1/4 strength point is then 24" and 1/16 strength is at 4 feet!

And this at frequencies that plants absorb and use with the most efficiency.
Less light gets wasted and fewer watts are converted to radiated heat.

The farther your lights are from the crown of the plants at full saturation, the better will be ones "penetration".
Bottom line, stronger lights grow taller meds.

The UFOs are bottom of the line and most use 1W. emitters.
Adequate, but not great.

The better, lights use 3W. emitters at 660nm. red and 420 - 460 nm. blue. They can grow some serious bud.
(Google "Str8outtaweed")

I use 15W. emitters and I'm very happy with them
I saturate at about 14" and usually run it at 18"
Now were talkin good size bushes, under LED.
I'm down to 1/4 strength at 2 ' 4"!


If we were using white light, saturation/bleaching would occur at >91K LUX.
Double the distance and we still have more that 22.5K LUX.
That will grow some fine bud.

Mahalo nui Hempkat.
Nice of you to let me run off at the mouth in your thread.

Aloha,
Weezard

First of all no problem, I think this is a very interesting area of discussion and so even if it is running the mouth so to speak I think the subject matter makes it well worth it. Oh and it's not really my thread, it's our thread. Our being all of us that participate here regularly.

Okay well I didn't realize they needed to be that far away, somehow I got the impression they needed to be at 6" at 14" that's about as good as a 600W. Do you have some examples of these LED grown bushes you speak of that you could show me or point me towards?

Also I'm wondering what medium you're working in when using these? I'm thinking that if the slower transpiration you're seeing is in dirt then if so possibly something like an Ebb and Flow system using coco might offset things somewhat since coco dries out fairly quickly anyway.

Also I'm interested in your doing your lights as a DIY job, how difficult was that and what sort of savings do you think you realized that way? Also were there some sort of guidelines that had to be followed for this sort of application of LED's and if so where would one obtain such guidelines?

 

[Fat J]

Thanks HK, that link was exactly what i was looking for. ^.^

 

[HempKat]

Thanks HK, that link was exactly what i was looking for. ^.^

No problem but do me a favor, when you read thru it don't just jump to the conclusion that removing leaves equals a better yield. The title suggests that and many seem to have run with that but there's more to what the thread starter is saying then just that. It's also about training and it's also about using the removal of leaves over time to help control how the plant grows before flower.

 

[Fat J]

Yeah, I read the whole thread, looked into a buncha different sources, I have been selectively removing weak/badly placed nodes all during veg, and defoliating (i called it "big leafing") just was always afraid to do it in bloom, I did this time, and it looks like they are loving it. I have good strong light n excellent refloctors, but the lack of penetration was killin the lower nodes. I should have gone 12/12 earlier, but ive never seen this knd of rapid growth during stretch pahse of bloom before. BTW: my "limited space" is half a garage, not a tent etc... just never had em this vigorous during early bloom. But thanks for the link again, was very helpful, ill let u know the numbers lineup vs control numbers when they finish ^^ stay high man.

 

[Weezard]

A gracious host.

A gracious host.

First of all no problem, I think this is a very interesting area of discussion and so even if it is running the mouth so to speak I think the subject matter makes it well worth it. Oh and it's not really my thread, it's our thread. Our being all of us that participate here regularly.

Okay well I didn't realize they needed to be that far away, somehow I got the impression they needed to be at 6" at 14" that's about as good as a 600W. Do you have some examples of these LED grown bushes you speak of that you could show me or point me towards?

https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=734
Is a good place to start.

Also I'm wondering what medium you're working in when using these? I'm thinking that if the slower transpiration you're seeing is in dirt then if so possibly something like an Ebb and Flow system using coco might offset things somewhat since coco dries out fairly quickly anyway.

DWC was far too fruitful and, well, "more than enough is too much", yah?
So now I grow mostly in hand watered coco.

Also I'm interested in your doing your lights as a DIY job, how difficult was that and what sort of savings do you think you realized that way? Also were there some sort of guidelines that had to be followed for this sort of application of LED's and if so where would one obtain such guidelines?

I left you some other links in a P.M. that should serve for the DIY questions.

I uploaded a few more pictures to my Ladies of the light album here, this afternoon.
And corrected some captions.

Thanks for gettin' me posting about leds again.
Gotta admit, I was gettin' a li'l "gun-shy"

I don't do dirt anymore, but I still learn much from this thread allatime.

You write clearly, and well.
I can usually follow you even when medicated to the gills.
So, any way I can help you with this, do not hesitate.
I'm retired and actually have some spare time.


Mahalo nui

Weezard

 

[archer66]

Verry nice work you doing here guys for us the newbys, i hope i got the time to go through the whole tread.
I need some help here couse im in a disaster again
So here is the situation
Plants 1 week old are shyowing signs of pH problem i think (soil grow) .
I have done a grow ( wich failed probably due to salt seriuos salt build up nealry 3wk till finish) and that plant was in the same soil (soil is not some cheap local brand) with the same tap water and didnt had these problems.
Tap water is 7.5 and always left for a few days open.
If the problem is in the 7.5 water, why didnt this ocured in the first grow (same conditions diferent bag seed, small scale grow)???
The pH is measured with reactive test kit couse i cant afford a pH pen or something like that, and i whant to make it clear couse it seems easy to you guys living in the civilized world but a pH metter costs almost 1/4 of my monthly salary, not to mention that i cant find dolomite lime nowhere (thats the situation in easter europe)

 

[shakeyatl]

So I have been feeding Iguana Juice and went out the other day and picked up a bag of Jamaican Bat Guano. I noticed the bag says to feed 1-3 tsp every 4 weeks. ow this would meen that I am only adding BG 2-3 times per cycle and feeding IJ and water the rest of the tome.

My question is. Is this correct, or should I go about it in a differant manner i.e. less bg say 1/2 tsp- 1tsp every 2 weeks.

 

[HempKat]

I left you some other links in a P.M. that should serve for the DIY questions.

I uploaded a few more pictures to my Ladies of the light album here, this afternoon.
And corrected some captions.

Thanks for gettin' me posting about leds again.
Gotta admit, I was gettin' a li'l "gun-shy"

I don't do dirt anymore, but I still learn much from this thread allatime.

You write clearly, and well.
I can usually follow you even when medicated to the gills.
So, any way I can help you with this, do not hesitate.
I'm retired and actually have some spare time.


Mahalo nui

Weezard

You probably understand me so well when you're medicated because I'm pretty well medicated when typing things out usually.

Yeah I got the pm and will be looking thinks over but as far as actually doing anything with LED's that's not going to be happening anytime soon due to my lack of spare money. I only encouraged you to provide more info because it's so rare I run across someone whose opinion I respect and who has a working knowledge of LED's.

As for being gun shy about talking about it, I can understand, people that promote newer technologies often have that backfire on them because something isn't ready for prime time and causes some people problems. Like the digital ballasts, when they first came out some people jumped onboard and encouraged others only to find that there were many conflicts with existing bulbs on the market. So for a time the people that promoted digital lights seemed like the bad guys. Well now that seems to have changed and quite a few people are using digital now. I figure LED's will follow a similar path.

I know for me to use LED's will be a problem because where I grow there is no AC or heat and since I mostly grow in the winter I depend heavily on having that heat from the 1000W HID to keep the grow room at good temps.

 

[HempKat]

Verry nice work you doing here guys for us the newbys, i hope i got the time to go through the whole tread.
I need some help here couse im in a disaster again
So here is the situation
Plants 1 week old are shyowing signs of pH problem i think (soil grow) .
I have done a grow ( wich failed probably due to salt seriuos salt build up nealry 3wk till finish) and that plant was in the same soil (soil is not some cheap local brand) with the same tap water and didnt had these problems.
Tap water is 7.5 and always left for a few days open.
If the problem is in the 7.5 water, why didnt this ocured in the first grow (same conditions diferent bag seed, small scale grow)???
The pH is measured with reactive test kit couse i cant afford a pH pen or something like that, and i whant to make it clear couse it seems easy to you guys living in the civilized world but a pH metter costs almost 1/4 of my monthly salary, not to mention that i cant find dolomite lime nowhere (thats the situation in easter europe)

Yeah 7.5 is too high of a ph and will cause problems. Why it didn't cause problems before is hard to say. Typically fertilizers will lower a water's ph because their ph is typically low or acidic. Perhaps you were feeding it fertilizer regularly enough to keep the ph okay? Perhaps the water's ph wasn't as high then? I know my water's ph tends to fluctuate in the summer time if we don't get much rain (I have well water).

As for meters well there are some pricey ones that do require alot of money but there are more reasonably priced ones to. Like the Ph Checker by Hanna is only about $50

http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=426

There are cheaper options but all the ones I've tried don't work very well. Now if $50 is too expensive then your best bet is to stick with the test kits where you take a sample and add three drops of the test solution and then compare the color of the sample to a chart. The problem there is those become hard to read when your ferts change the color of your water from clear to brownish. Also even with clear water it's hard to be very accurate with those test kits.

As for dolomite lime, I'm sure it's somewhere in your area, people have been using dolomite lime in gardening for centuries. Often times it's sold as garden lime. If worse comes to worse you could always order it online from your favorite online grow store.

Finally, don't feel like you need to read the whole thread. If you want to, that's fine, over the years this thread has been around, many questions have been asked and answered. Unfortunately some of them have been asked and answered many times over which makes reading the whole thread somewhat redundent.

 

[HempKat]

So I have been feeding Iguana Juice and went out the other day and picked up a bag of Jamaican Bat Guano. I noticed the bag says to feed 1-3 tsp every 4 weeks. ow this would meen that I am only adding BG 2-3 times per cycle and feeding IJ and water the rest of the tome.

My question is. Is this correct, or should I go about it in a differant manner i.e. less bg say 1/2 tsp- 1tsp every 2 weeks.

Alas I've little experience working with raw organics like bat guano. The directions sound right in that it's my understanding bat guano is some potent stuff but I really couldn't say for sure. Hopefully one of the other Old Farts hanging around here can answer your question better?

My guess is that it's better to follow the directions, raw organics take time to break down in the soil before they can be used and so maybe that's being factored in when they say to feed 1-3 tsp every 4 weeks? If it takes a while to break down and you feed more frequently then that could create a situation where you develope a toxic build up.

 

[Jopedijoo]

Nice thread Hempkat! And good stuff with the LEDs Weezard, as always

I was wondering about that light saturation point...

If we were using white light, saturation/bleaching would occur at >91K LUX.
Double the distance and we still have more that 22.5K LUX.
That will grow some fine bud.

As you say, with white light saturation occurs at 91K. What about with LEDs at 660nm and 450nm? I took a look at your album and there you seem to have some 70K at 12" and some 25K at 24". What's that inverse square law loophole you're referring to?

I'm using those same 15W red and blue LED emitters and I checked my lux readings. I get similar readings at a few inches closer. The difference for you is most likely due to your lensed LEDs. Well anyways.. I'm kinda puzzled, is 6" good or should it be more like 12"? And is there any way to make use of those lux readings? I got some prolonged flowering times last time and I'm sure a part of it has to do with the lights being too close for some plants, had some slight bleaching too.

Next please