Powering ~12,000W through a sub-panel?

[Absolut]

In the planning stages of a new grow. These are just rough sketches of the space. Probably will not have that many plants, just wanted to show the scale.





2 Flowering rooms and 1 Veg room. Space is just a finished basement which I plan to insulate completely using pink foam board, wood framing, and finally black and white poly.

Big Flower room (12x12x8) will have 6,000W. Smaller room (10x10x8) will have 4,000W. Veg room will have two 600W MH and 2 large fluorescent fixtures (12 bulbs each? haven't decided yet).

Generously guesstimating total ventilation wattage will be 3000W.

So in total there will be around 15,000W. Using 240V that comes out to 62.5 amps. Obviously this does not include misc wattage such as heaters, etc. I'm estimating about 75 amps just to be safe.

Here's the main panel:



Near the hot tub, there's a junction box:



The sun room doesn't need any power. The hot tub never gets used/is broken. This gives me 4 breaker spaces. The sun room uses 4x15 amp breakers= 60 amps. The hot tub uses 2x50=100 amps. 160 total free amps???

Now the reason I started this thread:

Simply put, I want a panel in the basement were I can control everything and diagnose any problems right there. Ideally I'd like to set it up like GeorgeSmiley : https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3175343&postcount=1

Pretty much just clean and simple. Also plan on mounting all my ballasts on the wall near or around the panel. I plan on running more wire for outlets throughout the grow space.

1. Is it possible to take out the existing breakers and replace them with the ones I need? I want to get new wire and breakers specifically for this grow.

2. 80% load is the safe zone so can I run my grow using just a 100A sub-panel?

3. I initially wanted to make it a 200A panel just to have more amperage just in case. Is this possible considering the free space in the main panel (above)? Or would this just be overkill?

4. What kind of equipment will I need? Will I need relays for the lights? What are relays for exactly?

5. I plan on using the commercial grade Intermatic timers to control my lights. Any suggestions? Can you wire 6x1000W lights to one of these timers? I'd like to have the big and small flowering rooms to be completely separate, no sharing circuits on anything. Same goes for the veg room.
5a. All the fans for ventilation will be running 24/7 with the exception of the fans cooling the light hoods. Any reasons I couldn't wire the light fans to the same timer as the light?

6. Any other suggestions or tips are VERY WELCOME.

 

[iSMOKE.KUSH]

a run a 10,000 watt grow and a 4 ton A/C off a 100 amp sub panel. with 2 50 watt subpanels off that. each 50 watt sub panel can run 6 lights. check out the first couple pages of my grow. there is pics.

 

[Absolut]

a run a 10,000 watt grow and a 4 ton A/C off a 100 amp sub panel. with 2 50 watt subpanels off that. each 50 watt sub panel can run 6 lights. check out the first couple pages of my grow. there is pics.

Nice setup.

So I'm probably going to have to get 3 timers right? Since you said each timer could only run 4 lights.

For the box with 6 outlets, if you have it split between 2 timers how come all the outlets are connected together?

Also I plan on have the subpanel inside the grow space so do you think I'll need to make 2 more subpanels? Couldn't I just rig the timers up from the main subpanel?

 

[iSMOKE.KUSH]

Nice setup.

So I'm probably going to have to get 3 timers right? Since you said each timer could only run 4 lights.

For the box with 6 outlets, if you have it split between 2 timers how come all the outlets are connected together?

Also I plan on have the subpanel inside the grow space so do you think I'll need to make 2 more subpanels? Couldn't I just rig the timers up from the main subpanel?

they aren't actually all wired together. some of those gromnets are empty. haha don't ask, but i like stuff to be symmetrical.

 

[mr. bojangles]

You only have 95 amps free on that panel if you take out the circuits you mentioned. The hot tub breaker is a 50 amp double pole., not 2 50 amp circuits. The 4 15 amp breakers your referring to are really 2 15 amp single pole circuits and 1 15 amp double pole breaker. The 2 15s tied together in the middle are your 2 pole, makes 240v.

In reality, you could probably just pull the 50 and put in a 70. Run at least a 6 gauge feed to a sub panel, and run your flower rooms off that. Then pop a 30 in where the 4 15s are at and run a 10 gauge feed to timer and then to your veg lights. I recommend for flower using a relay to separate the two rooms and that way you can run one while the other is off. Get a double pole/double throw relay.

If you need more info check out the electrical sticky in this forum. It's really long, but very useful, ie; read the whole thing. Everything you need to know is in there and there is usually someone there to answer your questions. Good luck and happy gardening

Edit: Thats not a junction box, it's a disconnect. Forget about any old wire. If your gonna use it, make it new.

 

[dtfsux]

edit

 

[AOD2012]

damn....

 

[Absolut]

You only have 95 amps free on that panel if you take out the circuits you mentioned. The hot tub breaker is a 50 amp double pole., not 2 50 amp circuits. The 4 15 amp breakers your referring to are really 2 15 amp single pole circuits and 1 15 amp double pole breaker. The 2 15s tied together in the middle are your 2 pole, makes 240v.

In reality, you could probably just pull the 50 and put in a 70. Run at least a 6 gauge feed to a sub panel, and run your flower rooms off that. Then pop a 30 in where the 4 15s are at and run a 10 gauge feed to timer and then to your veg lights. I recommend for flower using a relay to separate the two rooms and that way you can run one while the other is off. Get a double pole/double throw relay.

If you need more info check out the electrical sticky in this forum. It's really long, but very useful, ie; read the whole thing. Everything you need to know is in there and there is usually someone there to answer your questions. Good luck and happy gardening

Edit: Thats not a junction box, it's a disconnect. Forget about any old wire. If your gonna use it, make it new.

Thanks for the input. I was talking to someone and they said the main breaker could either be a 200A or 400A. Do you think it'll be hard to remove the MAIN BREAKER just to move it up on the panel and make more room for other breakers? I do have some electrical experience but don't want to screw anything like this up.

Also instead of a relay, someone recommended a CAP light controller:
http://www.discount-hydro.com/productdisp.php?pid=723&navid=5

If I get this I won't need relays right since this is one????

 

[mr. bojangles]

It's hard to tell, your pic is a little fuzzy, but it looks like you have a 100 amp main. It sure as hell ain't a 400. Do you already have a sub panel some where else in the house? What are the 2 spaces directly below your main? Is that a sub panel in the pics? And yes you could get one of those lighting controllers, but they won't do what I was describing, they only turn your lights on or off based on input from the timer.

I was suggesting using the DP/DT relay, or more accurately a contactor. That way you can use one timer to control both flower rooms, 1 on 1 off. Then you just run your 50 amp 240v feed to the contactor, which in turn flips power between your 6k and your 4k. Next, hook your timer to a 120v power source and then from the timer run power to the coil on your contactor.

If you really want to use the controller your going to have to have to have all your lights on at the same time. Why have 2 flower rooms if you do that though? That just seems like alot of wasted money in environmental controls to not take advantage of the reduction in amp load you would get if you flipped between 2 rooms.

I personally would just run 10k at night and forget about everything else. 1 bloom 1 veg less headache.

 

[Absolut]

It's hard to tell, your pic is a little fuzzy, but it looks like you have a 100 amp main. [You mean the breaker is a 100A? ] It sure as hell ain't a 400. [I do believe the main feed is more than 100A, this house is a pretty good sized house.] Do you already have a sub panel some where else in the house? [Yes, the panel pictured, is feeding a subpanel which is in the garage, all the stuff in the house is controlled through this subpanel. ] What are the 2 spaces directly below your main? [No idea, maybe it's just space holders or something?] Is that a sub panel in the pics? [Nope, this is the main panel which I plan on pull a feed for a new subpanel.] And yes you could get one of those lighting controllers, but they won't do what I was describing, they only turn your lights on or off based on input from the timer.

I was suggesting using the DP/DT relay, or more accurately a contactor. [Any links for this kind of equipment?] That way you can use one timer to control both flower rooms, 1 on 1 off. [Is there a timer 'heavy duty' enough to switch on 10,000W? I read that those Intermatic timers can only run 4-1000W lights.] Then you just run your 50 amp 240v feed to the contactor, which in turn flips power between your 6k and your 4k. Next, hook your timer to a 120v power source and then from the timer run power to the coil on your contactor.

If you really want to use the controller your going to have to have to have all your lights on at the same time. [Well initially when I am getting started (starting from seed) I probably won't need both rooms to be on at the same time. This is why I wanted to option to run both rooms separately. Unless you have some suggestions, I'm open to ideas. ] Why have 2 flower rooms if you do that though? That just seems like alot of wasted money in environmental controls to not take advantage of the reduction in amp load you would get if you flipped between 2 rooms.

I personally would just run 10k at night and forget about everything else. 1 bloom 1 veg less headache.[Yea this would be ideal. But until all the rooms are filled up, I'll probably need to control each room separately. Again, I'm open to suggestions.]

Don't really need anything fancy, want to keep it as simple as possible.

 

[mr. bojangles]

Fuck I was about to post and my browser crashed, oh well here goes again.
Is your meter right next to the panel in the pics?
Something like this for your relay https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=35561

And the whole reason you run a relay is to take the load of your timer. Basically your just isolating the circuit. Really though, you need to read thru that electrical sticky, it will really help you get a better understanding of what you need to know. It will give you some ideas, too.
good luck, you can do it, just educate yourself and the skies the limit.

 

[Absolut]

Fuck I was about to post and my browser crashed, oh well here goes again.
Is your meter right next to the panel in the pics?
Something like this for your relay https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=35561
[Yep the meter is directly/connected next to it]

And the whole reason you run a relay is to take the load of your timer. Basically your just isolating the circuit. Really though, you need to read thru that electrical sticky, it will really help you get a better understanding of what you need to know. It will give you some ideas, too.
good luck, you can do it, just educate yourself and the skies the limit.

Yea I'll definitely go through and read that sticky. Thanks for your help again.

 

[Absolut]

Ok. I read through that sticky and it did give me a lot of useful information. Only got to about page 30 but plan on finishing the rest later.

So after digesting some of that information I'm still not really understanding relays (from what I got relays are good if you don't have the money to get more ballasts or enough amps to spare? is this right?)

However, I got the general idea of what I'll need to power a 100A subpanel. Just wanted to get this as polished as possible before I go out and buy everything. Here's a general plan of electric.

What do you guys think about these for the subpanel?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_89671-82364-BR1020B100F11RN_4294858489+4294851240_40?productId=3129821&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_Eaton%2BCutler-Hammer_4294858489%204294851240_40_?rpp=30$No=30$Ns=p_product_price|0

http://www.lowes.com/pd_103209-82364-BR1220B100_4294858489+4294851240_40?productId=3006032&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_Eaton%2BCutler-Hammer_4294858489%204294851240_40_?rpp=30$No=30$Ns=p_product_price|0


This is the breaker for the service panel (is it big enough?):

http://www.lowes.com/pd_103015-82364-BR2100CS_4294821906+4294851240+4294820085_40?productId=3127493&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_20_4294821906%204294851240%204294820085_40_?Ns=p_product_price|0


Four of these to feed the flowering rooms:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_94436-82364-BR220_4294821906+4294851240+4294820085_40?productId=1114097&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_20_4294821906%204294851240%204294820085_40_?Ns=p_product_price|0

And 2 of these for the veg room:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_94433-82364-BR120_4294821906+4294851240+4294820107_40?productId=1114091&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_10_4294821906%204294851240%204294820107_40_?Ns=p_product_price|0

For the cable I was deciding between the THHN or the SER

This is the THHN:
http://www.nassaunationalcable.com/THHN2___THWN2___TFFN.html

SER:
http://www.nassaunationalcable.com/SER_Copper_Cable.html

What do you guys think?

Of course I'm going to buy all of this at an electrical supply warehouse, not home depot or lowes. They wouldn't have the THHN or SER anyway.

 

[dtfsux]

Your available electric has nothing to do with the hot tub or sun room. Your available electric depends on what is coming in, and what else is being used. If you look at a normal house panel, and add up the #'s on all the breakers, it usually far exceeds what is actually available. Why do they do that? Because nobody is going to max out each circuit.

I would just pop out the hot tub breaker and disconnect the wire from the breaker feeding the hot tub and cap/wire nut them. In the future you can always reconnect the hot tub.

Pop in a 125 amp breaker, run the appropriate wire to a 125 amp sub panel and you are done. 125 is bigger than 100 but not way overkill like 200. The cost of the panel is negligible. The real expense is wiring, breakers etc.


A contactor/relay is like a big automated switch. You use a tiny, tiny tiny amount of power to turn on a much larger load. You understand the limits to voltage/current loads are mainly the size of wire, contacts etc right? So a relay basically has two large pieces of metal in it that are held apart by a spring. There is also a magnet in there that will pull the metal together when power is applied. The relays have a load connection one end, and a power end on the other. You connect one end to the light, and the other to a constant power source. These are usually not marked as it makes no difference which side is load and power, the connection remains broken in the middle. Then there are two smaller connections elsewhere that are referred to as the "coil" These two connections are different on various contactors and for our purposes we want 120V. These would be connected to a standard digital timer. So when the timer turns on, it energizes the magnet and closes the switch and powers anything connected to it. When the timer shuts off, the magnet is released and power is shut off. You could run 1 $15 timer to power all the lights in an NFL stadium by using multiple contactors. You just daisy chain from contactor to contactor.

You asked about lights and fans? the contactor is great for this. You use one contactor for the lights, and one for the fans, both controlled by one timer. You simply jump from contactor to contactor. They are set up to do this.

Here is a great pic
http://www.cshincorporated.com/popup_image.php/pID/3231

see the tabs on the side, those are for the timer. You just make a wire with a plug on it and connect the other end to the relay. then you jump from the second connection to the next contactor

In general all contactors can handle up to 600 volts. What you need to be concerned with is amperage and coil. You will usually see 24V and 120 V. This is what energizes the coil or magnet. You want 120V since the timer is 120. Amperage you want 30 or 40 amps depending on what you want to run

Contactors CAN be used in a flip where you use ballasts for different rooms. But that is by far not the only purpose. Contactors are very common in lighting controls where HIDS are used, parking lots, gas stations, stores, etc. It is just a way to control large amounts of power.


Mr Bojangles seems to be implying the use of a DT (double throw) relay. This has two more connections on it. One set is feed, and two sets are load. The feed is always hot, and one of the loads will always be hot based on if the magnet is energized or not

I have used the intermatic hot water timers and timers with the contactors. I prefer the contactors


Some of the links you posted did not work. It really does not matter. Any panel from Home Depot or Lowes is going to work. Some may prefer one or the other but they all do the same thing. You will need DP breakers for the 240 items, and SP for the 120 items. Just get the correct breaker for that brand.

I suggest you figure out everything, where your fans are going, water pumps, where your DH will go, etc. Then you can place outlets and figure what each circuit will need.


That is alot of wattage. I suggest you run the rooms on a flip

 

[mr. bojangles]

yep