New grower with E&F questions

[spongiereggae]

Not sure if this should go here or in the hydro forum, so apologies in advance if this is in the wrong place....

I'm planning an E&F system with a total of 16 buckets, 8 for flowering and 8 for veg. Obviously the two groups are separated and light-tight. I've done searches and read for what seems like hours without finding what I need--maybe I'm not using the right keywords. As a result I've got a few questions for all the kind folk out there.

First, is there a thread showing a step-by-step setup of an E&F? I'm pretty sure I've got the gist of it, but a tutorial would be great. Second, I assume the nutes for veg are different from those for flowering, so I would need two separate systems. But I'm new to this so I don't know--are there nutes that work well for both so I can use one reservoir? I know that's unlikely but since I want to keep the reservoir in the adjoining room for temperature control, I'd like to keep things as stealth as possible and have only one container to disguise if it's at all feasible. But I can do two if necessary (and I imagine it is).

Last (at least for now ), is there a general rule of thumb for how big a reservoir I need? I'm planning to use 5 gal buckets with 10 inch net pots filled with hydroton. If I'm splitting into two eight-bucket systems, do I need a 40 gal (8 x 5) reservoir for each?

All replies greatly appreciated. I've already gotten great advice from the folks here, hopefully one day I'll have the experience to pass on to others.

 

[Snype]

If you're using the 5 gallon buckets, you mind as well as go with RDWC instead of E&B. If you're doing E&B, why not use trays instead? for a 4x6 tray you can use a 40 gallon rez and for a 4x8 tray, you can use a 70 gallon rez. As far as a nute schedule goes, it's all fake. There is no nute schedule. You have to run tests on your first crop to figure out what your plants want. Every plant and pheno is different and eats differently. Keep things as simple as possible. For nutes, just go with General Hydroponic Flora Series and only use the Micro and the Bloom for VEG and in bloom, add a little Liquid Kool Bloom with the Micro and Bloom. The Micro has plenty of N for VEG that you don't need the VEG nutes.

 

[spongiereggae]

Thanks for the reply Snype. I considered RWDC but--and correct me if I'm wrong--it seemed like I might have an issue with water temps since the buckets are full even between recirculations. I imagine the same would hold true for the trays since they would be in the grow room. I've read that the water temp shouldn't stray much from 68 F. My grow space is well ventilated and keeps reasonably cool (about 76 F) but thats before I add a few hps lamps on the flowering side. I haven't purchased the lamps but I'll probably go with 2 600s or 2 1ks. I may be wrong, but I'm afraid that even with good venting the water temps may get too high. This led me to thinking that E&F with the reservoir in the next room would be a good solution as that room has no heat issues and I can adjust the temps more easily if needed.

I know that there's chillers I can buy, but they seem expensive. Years ago when I was homebrewing a friend and I built a wart chiller out of copper tubing and I've considered doing something like that to cool the reservoir but don't know if that will mess with the water or the nutes. It never hurt the wart when I was brewing, but brewing a good beer was less complex than growing a good plant, so I don't know.

Thanks for the advice on the nutes. There's so many on the market that claim to be the best thing since sinsemilla that it's impossible to make an informed choice without the help of someone with experience. Your help is greatly appreciated!

 

[spongiereggae]

Okay, I've obviously been reading too much and my brain has mushed. I see now what you're saying about the trays--it took me a few minutes to grasp that I was dispensing with the buckets all together. Yeah, that does make more sense. And I can save the 5 gals for some future project.

Thanks again!

 

[Snype]

I've never run water chillers with 4 1000's on 2 4x8 E&F trays and never had any problems. The tray only floods for 15 minutes every 3-12 hours depending on how big your plants are and what cycle you're in. In RDWC it seems like you really need those chillers. I found out the hard way the first time I tried it out. It was really bad. You'll really like the E&B cause it's really easy and there's almost no work to do on your crops except change your rez every 2 weeks but sometimes I don't even change my rez the whole crop at all. I just add back 1/3 nutes right in after 2 or 3 weeks. All depends on the plants that you have though. Learn how they eat by checking the PPMs and pH and you will do well I've been running E&F for over 15 years and if you need any help feel free to PM me or Visitor message me. Good luck! OH and you can still use the 10" net pots that you have on the trays. Personally I like to use a 4"x4"x4" stone wool cube and burry it in the 10" net pot with hydroton. If you choose to use hydroton, remember to wash it out real good with water before use cause it can mess up your pH.

 

[High Country]

How about an ebb/flow tray with hydroton or rockwool cubes in it. All you need is a light, small pump and timer for both. The res sits under the tray. I've tried lot's of methods and now just stick to this.

 

[spongiereggae]

Thanks again Snype, especially for your kind offer of further assistance. I may take you up on that. I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems with your water temps considering how many watts you're putting out. Just to make sure I understand you, are you saying that I don't have to worry overmuch about the water temp of the reservoir? In other words, I can keep the reservoir in the grow room rather in the adjoining one?

High Country--sounds good. I've already got the net pots, so I'll probably use them as Snype suggested. Don't know what else I'd do with them .

One more question: I was initially attracted to using the 5 gal buckets because of the amount of space for root growth. I'm naturally trying to maximize my yields and wonder if the tray method limits root growth?

 

[High Country]

Thanks again Snype, especially for your kind offer of further assistance. I may take you up on that. I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems with your water temps considering how many watts you're putting out. Just to make sure I understand you, are you saying that I don't have to worry overmuch about the water temp of the reservoir? In other words, I can keep the reservoir in the grow room rather in the adjoining one?

High Country--sounds good. I've already got the net pots, so I'll probably use them as Snype suggested. Don't know what else I'd do with them .

One more question: I was initially attracted to using the 5 gal buckets because of the amount of space for root growth. I'm naturally trying to maximize my yields and wonder if the tray method limits root growth?

I can fit 36 clones into a 3x3 ebb/flow tray and grow single cola style SEA OF GREEN. The clones go straight on to 12/12. I bury the clones straight into hydroton, no pots at 4 per sq/ft. Sure the roots all grow into each other but it doesn't seem to matter. Lot's of different ways aren't there. Get's quite confusing as to what is the right way to do it. Trial and error, I've tried lot's of ways and this seems to work for me.

 

[Snype]

Thanks again Snype, especially for your kind offer of further assistance. I may take you up on that. I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems with your water temps considering how many watts you're putting out. Just to make sure I understand you, are you saying that I don't have to worry overmuch about the water temp of the reservoir? In other words, I can keep the reservoir in the grow room rather in the adjoining one?

High Country--sounds good. I've already got the net pots, so I'll probably use them as Snype suggested. Don't know what else I'd do with them .

One more question: I was initially attracted to using the 5 gal buckets because of the amount of space for root growth. I'm naturally trying to maximize my yields and wonder if the tray method limits root growth?

Hydro is a little different than soil in terms of needing big roots to get big crops. The roots don't really need to go looking for their food and it always stays wet so they can stay a lot smaller than soil. With 2 x 600 watt's, you won't have to worry about your rez, unless you live in a hot climate with no AC. Just keep your rez pumping with airstones to help your D.O. and to keep your solution mixed. Personally I like to use the net pots that you have so I can move plants around when I want to instead of just pouring hydroton all over the tray. If you're going to use 10" net pots than I would suggest VEGing your plants (depending on the strain) and topping at least once to bush them out cause your pots are big. With 600 watts, I would finish them at a height of 36" and put 36" tomato cages on each net pot and put them all touching eachother. Focus on the tops and try to have at least 4 tops per plant. This is how I can see you getting good yields with your 10" net pots. If you're going to grow smaller plants, you can go with the 8" net pots. You'll probably want to VEG your clones to 18-24" to get them to finish at 36" but it really depends on the strain and pheno that you are growing. You want to use your lights so they get about 45-55 watts per square foot so you can use that to find the right trays that you'll need to maximize your grow.

 

[spongiereggae]

Thanks again to both of you for your help. I was wondering if you could tell me how deep the trays are? The prices I see for them seem high for what they are, and the descriptions only give me length and width. I'd like to find some cheaper alternative that would fit the bill. Any suggestions? Cat litter trays or something of the sort? Or is there something special about the trays sold at hydro stores?

High Country--thanks for the info. I'm very intrigued by your setup but also see the points Skype makes regarding the ability to easily move plants around. I like the idea of going straight to 12/12--I assume your overall time to harvest is shorter this way? Also, I know a lot depends on the strain, but assuming a good strain what kind of approx. yield do you get per plant? I'd also be interested in what kind of lighting you're using. I'll probably go with a full veg and flower cycle since it's what I've done with my one (soil) crop and I'm comfortable with it, but it would depend on results. I'm growing for a group of people and would like to get 2 lbs per harvest every couple of months or so.

Again thanks to both of you for your help!

 

[spongiereggae]

Okay, I did find the depth on some trays ranging from 4.25" to 8". Is deeper better? I would imagine that it gives more room for roots from what Skype said that may not be an issue. Any info appreciated!

 

[Snype]

Thanks again to both of you for your help. I was wondering if you could tell me how deep the trays are? The prices I see for them seem high for what they are, and the descriptions only give me length and width. I'd like to find some cheaper alternative that would fit the bill. Any suggestions? Cat litter trays or something of the sort? Or is there something special about the trays sold at hydro stores?

High Country--thanks for the info. I'm very intrigued by your setup but also see the points Skype makes regarding the ability to easily move plants around. I like the idea of going straight to 12/12--I assume your overall time to harvest is shorter this way? Also, I know a lot depends on the strain, but assuming a good strain what kind of approx. yield do you get per plant? I'd also be interested in what kind of lighting you're using. I'll probably go with a full veg and flower cycle since it's what I've done with my one (soil) crop and I'm comfortable with it, but it would depend on results. I'm growing for a group of people and would like to get 2 lbs per harvest every couple of months or so.

Again thanks to both of you for your help!

The trays are 7" deep I believe. The trays aren't more than a couple of hundred dollars and they pay for themselves after one harvest and then you have the trays forever. You can build your own trays with 2x3's and stuff but it'll only save you like half your money for something that will most likely be ghetto. I have a lot of friends that say the same thing about everything being expensive and they build there own ghetto things and lose out somehow in the end. I had a friend that was too cheap to buy a 100 gallon rez so he built one himself with 2x4's, plywood and plastic. Eventually his house flooded and ruined a lot of things just because he didn't want to drop less than $200. In terms of weight, there are calculations that you can do to get an idea of what you'll get for numbers. Because you seem new you'll most likely get around .5 grams per watt which would be 600 grams every crop but when you learn more about your plants and how to maximize them you'll get around a gram per watt or 1200 grams with 2 x 600's. It really doesn't matter how many plants you really have cause a good grower will get around a gram per watt with 1 plant or 1000 plants. You'll know that you are doing great when you can get close to a gram per watt. I don't belive that you should just take plants and grow them how you feel like doing them. The plants themselves will tell you how they want to be grown and you have to learn the specific pheno's that you have by growing them out and seeing how your yields compare to your last harvests and so on. Some plants like to be topped, some don't. Some plants can be grown small and still yield large, some don't. Finding your special MOM is the key to everything and can sometimes take years but when you find her, then you are all set. Sometimes I grow some plants small with no VEG cycle and pack in 50 plant on a 4'x4' tray some sometimes I'll put 9 plants on a tray with more VEG time. The point is you want a full canopy to maximize your yields no matter how you do it.

 

[spongiereggae]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about price since me and my friends are splitting the cost, it was just hard to see anything special about the trays I've seen online. And you're right--the first time I don't have to pay for an oz. I'll have more than made up the cost. The rest of what you said makes sense as well. I have a tendency to want to speed things up, but I know from the rest of my life that it usually doesn't work out. Thanks again!

 

[High Country]

Thanks again to both of you for your help. I was wondering if you could tell me how deep the trays are? The prices I see for them seem high for what they are, and the descriptions only give me length and width. I'd like to find some cheaper alternative that would fit the bill. Any suggestions? Cat litter trays or something of the sort? Or is there something special about the trays sold at hydro stores?

High Country--thanks for the info. I'm very intrigued by your setup but also see the points Skype makes regarding the ability to easily move plants around. I like the idea of going straight to 12/12--I assume your overall time to harvest is shorter this way? Also, I know a lot depends on the strain, but assuming a good strain what kind of approx. yield do you get per plant? I'd also be interested in what kind of lighting you're using. I'll probably go with a full veg and flower cycle since it's what I've done with my one (soil) crop and I'm comfortable with it, but it would depend on results. I'm growing for a group of people and would like to get 2 lbs per harvest every couple of months or so.

Again thanks to both of you for your help!

Harvest time is short, about 6-7 weeks with the very indica dominant strain I have. The only problem with SOG is you need quite a few mums initially although this can be cut back with multiple topping to produce lots of branches for clones. You also have to be comfortable with your cloning method to produce high numbers of clones. If plant numbers are an issue SOG is probably not for you.

I generally get the clones going about 3 weeks before harvest and they should have a good root system by the end of 3 weeks. Then straight into the SOG on 12/12, trim lateral growth and grow single cola style.

I have managed about 19OZ under a 600W HPS this way. Not quite a gram per watt. Some SOG growers are close to 2 grams per watt with CO2 and better environmental controls. I recently amped my light up to 1000W and will do another true SOG at 4 per sq/ft single cola style on the next run and see what 1000W can do.

Pots are fine too, I just don't have a need to move the plants.

Good luck, so many different ways to grow.

 

[spongiereggae]

Thanks High Country. It sounds like you've got a good thing going there!

I'm thinking that I'm going to go with pots and less plants, at least initially. I've done some reading here on the forums on SOG, and it sounds like something I might want to try, but not until I'm a little more experienced with hydro in general and have more clones.

Thanks again for the info!

 

[spongiereggae]

Another question. I'll be growing from germinated seeds (planned on using clones but didn't get to it soon enough), what's the best medium to use to grow them? I was thinking rockwool but will that cause any problems down the line when I put into the pots w/the hydroton? Might be a silly question but I'd like to avoid any problems.

 

[Snype]

You can start them in a 1.5"x1.5" rockwool cube and then transfer them into your pot of hydroton or you can put the cube right into a 4x4x4" cube and then put it in the pot of hydroton. I like to put into the cubes first so I can weigh the cubes cause I want them to dry out slightly before they get water again, when they are smaller. I can see this better if they are in cubes. Once the roots fill in, then I take off the plastic and put them into the pot with the hydroton. You'll have to learn how your plants eat and when they want water. Depending on the cycle that you are in and how big your plants are, they will need water more and less frequently. In the beginning I might flood the tray for 15 minutes once a day. As they grow I water more times a day for 15 minutes each time.

 

[dtfsux]

It seems like you ditched the buckets. Either way is fine.

Since you seem to be leaning towards the tables I'll give my input on those. I have built tables with wood and pond liner and bought tables. Building is cheaper, nicer if you need a custom size, mine were 4x11. Downside is not very portable, higher chance of leakage. I did have one leak and had to replace the liner. Store bought is easier obviously, stronger and portable from grow to grow. They also have channels in them to direct water so the pots do not sit in standing water if the tray does not drain 100% They also have resale value on craigslist. etc

For the medium, you can do whatever you want. Rockwool cubes into hydroton is fine. Just remember rockwool holds water so the more rockwool you have, the less frequently you should water.


SOG is IMO the easiest method to learn because all you do is plant, then trim later. No need to LST, tie branches, etc. Just lollipop them a couple weeks into flower. But the high plant #'s do mean more clones, more plants to tend to, more plants to pot up, etc. Plus the legal aspects.

Yes, veg and flower nutes are different so you need separate reses


One more thing, is this a med grow? If not, ABANDON this grow NOW. Friends in a commercial op do not work, trust me.