Feminized Seeds Vs Standard

[darwinsbulldog]

i went back and read up on what he'd quoted from wiki mate. and with all due respect i still i think i am right.

Here’s exactly what hoosier and I are talking about with respect to wiki being incorrect at times thus is not a great source in the same way primary literature is.

Headband707 quoted this from the feminized seed page on wiki I believe

“Environmental stresses sometimes create pollen bearing male flowers on female plants – known as hermaphroditism or 'hermying'.”

That is NOT correct at all… for one hermaphroditism is where the male and female organs are on the SAME flower, “create pollen bearing male flowers on female plants” that is monoecy, NOT hermaphroditism.

They’ve written “hermying” using the colloquial term that most cannabis hobbyists do, so I’d dare say this page on wiki was written up by a cannabis hobbyist, NOT a scientist or qualified botanist. Ok so now all I do is go to my paper collection and look up plant sex determination, on a table in a paper i have (i'll reference it below):

“Hermaphrodite (bisexual, monoclinous) – bisexual flower with both stamens and pistil”

further down

“Monoecious – both pistillate and staminate flowers on the same plant”

reference - Dellaporta, S. L., Calderon-Urrea, A., (1993) Sex Determination in Flowering Plants. The Plant Cell, 5, pp 1241-1251

he goes on to talk more about hermaphroditic “parents” etc again not correct. There’s only a single reference in any of that huge quote, making claims about feminized seed retaining intersex trait tendencies etc. it’s all speculation as well, using words like “may” and people “believe”. This is just a hobbyist’s semi-biased write up of feminized seeds on wiki, it’s not terrible for sure, it is useful and the information there is mostly good and some of it may be on the money. However it’s not evidence of anything because it’s unreferenced and thus can’t be used as an argument against feminized seeds.

wiki is a great source of info i'm not denying that, but it doesn't hold the same weight in arguments like this the same way published primary literature does. it's best to reference that if anything when trying to prove you're right.

 

[ibjamming]

You're right... IF we're going to have a REAL discussion about this...then by all means, we should use the correct terminology.

Good luck with that though... EVERYONE calls them hermies!

I don't know...sometimes I feel "Wiki is good enough". We're all amateurs just playing around, asking some basic questions.

Other times, I agree with you. If you're going to do it, do it right, use the correct terminology. But then, you lose people quickly. You go over their head.

What are you going to tell a guy who asks "How does THC get you high?"? Are you going to go into the BBB (brain blood barrier)? Talk about molecular transport across a membrane? How about Cannabis receptors? If he's a typical kid these days...he'll get a glaze in his eyes and say...yup, thanks...without a clue to what you just said.

I mentioned englishrick not to say anything bad about him...just to say that I'm fairly science savvy...and I had no clue to what he was referring to. I have a feeling it was gibberish...but I'm not familiar enough with the subject. He could be an expert in the field WAY over my head.

It's tough to have a good discussion when not with peers...

Back to the males showing female expression... I've heard of quite a few. Considering that in MY experience. Getting 1 in maybe 5 males that I've EVER allowed to live past preflower...it's 20%. I really think that IF we were to let more males live...we'd see behavior more like females. Hermi females.

Cannabis (the "seed market") has been selected for non hermi females. I would guess that in "our market", the commercial seed market, and any seeds derived from them, that there are artificially low numbers of hermi females because it's been bred out of them. Think about it...it's the #1 thing people seem to try to avoid in the seed stock...yet it's still here. I think it's DEEP in the genes. And I think there are just as many...probably more...males that turn female...like mine did. We just never let the males go long enough to express it.

Take care...

 

[papie]

I honestly think that there is a gene on the sex-chromosomes that supresses normal monoecious plants (girly is recessive and male dominant) and that that gene is supressable.

One of this type of negative or positive control would be in effect and although I'm not quite on top of this debate I think it's important to have a hypothesis on the genes that cause male/female and monoecious plants.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Well according to some in this thread a male is only "XY" and a female that is "XX" cannot be a male.

I'm wondering what those people attribute male flowers on an "XX" plant to... do they even admit that it happens?

Simply curious...

 

[papie]

Well according to some in this thread a male is only "XY" and a female that is "XX" cannot be a male.

I'm wondering what those people attribute male flowers on an "XX" plant to... do they even admit that it happens?

Simply curious...

Well I think that the genes for stamen en pistillate are in every plant, X or Y. But that the suppressing factor of half of those traits is on the sex-chromosomes.

 

[headband 707]

Yo Hrpuff I have read and love DJ's work and I have read his work about sativa's in the gym and although I do agree with what he is saying about the angle of light and timing . I think it's not an option for most ppl to have a facility that size.. There is always bending lol.. Yes you can work with a seed and work the traits out of the seed this is the idea in the end. That is for another thread LOL I could go into that one too LOL LOL..
Lets talk about PP growing underground and the bud is growing 30% faster!!! lol they think it might be the electromagnetic fields/copper .. perhaps it's because it's hermeticially sealed .. .. too bad thier bud really sucked lol . I There is a lot of hype about seeds floating around the net and I have falling for that hype only to get ripped off and I don't plan to let that shit happen again... Still the net is a great place to learn.. lol peace out Headband707

 

[hoosierdaddy]

"everyone calls em hermie"
lol...well, perhaps if folks were to start making distinctions, and pointing out the truth about things, instead of allowing the internet dunces to take control of the discussions, then perhaps our community as a whole would have the truth as common knowledge.
Voodoo and bullshit belongs elsewhere, IMO...and until we wise up, we are going to look, and be, stupid.

Does it cause trouble and hurt peoples feelings when they get challenged with these issues? Sure they do...but big fuckin deal. Get over it. I for one would like to see this culture advance and be led by the learned, instead of our representation being a bunch of goons who aren't going to do much in society to begin with, no matter what venue they frequent. Sorry to be so blunt...well, no not really sorry if the truth be known...but stupid is as stupid does.

If our own ranks are knowledgeable as a whole, then we will be a hard lot to fuck with.
As is, we are seen as a bunch of dumb stoners...which equates to the general populous as lazy bums with no motivations or passions, or even criminals.

 

[ibjamming]

"everyone calls em hermie"
lol...well, perhaps if folks were to start making distinctions, and pointing out the truth about things, instead of allowing the internet dunces to take control of the discussions, then perhaps our community as a whole would have the truth as common knowledge.
Voodoo and bullshit belongs elsewhere, IMO...and until we wise up, we are going to look, and be, stupid.

Does it cause trouble and hurt peoples feelings when they get challenged with these issues? Sure they do...but big fuckin deal. Get over it. I for one would like to see this culture advance and be led by the learned, instead of our representation being a bunch of goons who aren't going to do much in society to begin with, no matter what venue they frequent. Sorry to be so blunt...well, no not really sorry if the truth be known...but stupid is as stupid does.

If our own ranks are knowledgeable as a whole, then we will be a hard lot to fuck with.
As is, we are seen as a bunch of dumb stoners...which equates to the general populous as lazy bums with no motivations or passions, or even criminals.

Well they do...how are you going to change that? What would you have us call them? Remember...it has to be catchy and easy to type. Or nobody will change.

I don't know...weed smokers put regular procrastinators to shame. They're not known for their "energy". I don't see a movement coming any time soon.

Personally, I don't see how constitutionally, the government can outlaw a plant. I didn't see it in there anywhere. As a moral person of sound mind, I believe the Constitution gives me the right to do just about anything I wish. I hurt nobody smoking weed. What is the protection the government is providing...and to whom?

 

[Hrpuffnkush]

I There is a lot of hype about seeds floating around the net and I have falling for that hype only to get ripped off and I don't plan to let that shit happen again... Still the net is a great place to learn.. lol peace out Headband707

Headband a little fire under that booty can stimulate is good ....
buts its a fine line to walk web can be sensitive lol

i think Papie is on to somthing there , copper is the stimulate female production.... LOL thats all im typin about that
Thanks for some clues papie

Pollen is either Y or X when it lands on stamine enzyme is released and carries pollen to female embryo then seed is produced

Sex is an inherited trait in Cannabis, and can be explained in much the same terms as human sexuality can. Like a human being, Cannabis is a diploid organism: its chromosomes come in pairs. Chromosomes are microscopic structures within the cells on which the genes are aligned. Cannabis has 10 pairs of chromosomes (n=10), for a total of 20 chromosomes (2m=20).
One pair of chromosomes carries the primary genes that determine sex. These chromosomes are labelled either X or Y. Male plants have an XY pair of sex chromosomes. Females have XX. Each parent contribute one set of 10 chromosomes, which includes one sex chromosome, to the embryo. The sex chromosome carried by the female ovule can only be X. The one carried by pollen of the male plant may be either X or Y. From the pollen, the embryo has a 50/50 chance of receiving an X, likewise for Y; hance, male and female progeny appear in equal numbers (in humans, the sperm carries either an X or a Y chromosome.

Some hermaphrodites seem to be genetically determined (protogenous). That is, they naturally form flowers of both sexes given normal growing conditions. Possibly genes carried on the autosomes (the chromosomes other than the sex chromosomes) modify the normal sexual expression. Monoecious varieties have been developed by hemp breeders in order to ensure uniform harvests.
It is also possible that these particular are polyploid, which means they have more than the usual two sets of chromosomes. This kind of hermaphrodite may have XXY (triploid), or XXYY or XXXY (tetraploid) sex chromosomes. However, no naturally occurring polyploids have ever been verified (by observation of the chromosomes) in any population of Cannabis. Polyploids have been induced in Cannabis by using mutagens, such as the alkaloid colchicine.
Whatever then genetic explanation may be, one or more of these natural hermaphrodites may randomly appear in any garden. They are sometimes faster-maturing, have larger leaves, and are larger in overall size than their unisexual siblings. They usually form flowers of both sexes uniformly in time and distribution, and in some unusual patterns. For example, from Mexican seed, we have seen a plant on which separate flowering cluster consisted of both female and male flowers: and upper section of female flowers had upraised stigmas, and a lower section of male flowers dangled beneath the female flowers. In other plants from Mexican seed, the growing tips throughout the plant have female flowers; male flowers sprout from the leaf axils along the main stem and branches. Plants from "Thai" seed sometimes form male and female flowers on separate branches. Branches with female flowers tend to predominate, but branches having mostly male flowers are located throughout the plant.
Abnormal Flowers, Intersexes, Reversals
Gender is set in the new plant at the time of fertilisation by its inheritance of either the X or the Y chromosome from the male (staminate) plant. With germination of the seed, the environment comes into play. Heritage sets the genetic program, but the environment can influence how the program runs. (Sexual expression in Cannabis is delicately balanced between the two.) The photoperiod, for example, controls the plant's sequence of development. Also, the plant's metabolism and life processes are dependent on growing conditions. When the environment does not allow a balance to be maintained, the normal genetic program may not be followed. This is mirrored by abnormal growth or sexual expression.
Abnormal Flowers
Abnormal sexual expression includes a whole range of possibilities. Individual flowers may form abnormally, and may contain varying degrees of both male and female flower parts. For instance, a male flower may bear a stigma; or an anther may protrude from the bracts of a female flower. Abnormally formed flowers are not often seen on healthy plants, although if one looks hard enough, a few may be found in most crops. When many of the flowers are abnormal, an improper photoperiod (coupled with poor health) is the most likely cause. Abnormal flowers sometimes form on marijuana grown out of season, such as with winter or spring crops grown under natural light.
Intersexes and Reversals Much more common than abnormally formed flowers is for the plant's sex to be confused. One may find an isolated male flower or two; or there may be many clusters of male flowers on an otherwise female plant, or vice versa. These plants are called intersexes (also hermaphrodites or monoecious plants). Intersexes due to environment causes differ from natural hermaphrodite in having random distributions and proportions of male and female flowers. In more extreme cases, a plant may completely reverse sex. For example, a female may flowers normally for several weeks, then put forth new, sparse growth, typical of the male, on which male flowers develop. The complete reversal from male flowering to female flowering also happens.
All other things being equal, the potency of intersexes and reversed plants is usually less than that of normal plants. If there are reversals or intersexes, both of the sexes will usually be affected. Female plants that reverse to male flowering show the biggest decline. Not only is the grass less potent, but the amount of marijuana harvested from male flowers is negligible compared to the amount of marijuana that can be harvested from a normal female. Plants that change from male to female flowering usually increase their potency, because of the growth of female flower bracts with their higher concentration of resin. Female flowers on male plants seldom form as thickly or vigorously as on a normal female. Between the loss in potency and the loss in yield because of females changing to males, a crop from such plants is usually inferior, in both yield and potency, to one from normal plants.
Environmental Effects
Many environmental factors can cause intersexes and sexual reversals. These include photoperiod, low light intensity, applications of ultraviolet light, low temperatures, mutilation or severe pruning, nutrient imbalances or deficiencies, senescence (old age), and applications of various chemicals. If artificial light is used, the length of the photoperiod can influence sexual expression. Normal flowering, with about equal numbers of male and female plants, seems to occur when the photoperiod is from 15 to 17 hours of light for a period of three to five months. The photoperiod is then shortened to 12 hours to induce flowering. With longer photoperiods, from 18 to 24 hours a day, the ratio of males to females changes, depending on whether flowering is induced earlier or later in the plant's life. When the plants are grown with long photoperiods for six months or more, usually there are at least 10 percent more male then female plants. When flowering is induced within three months of age, more females develop. Actually, the "extra" males or females are reversed plants, but the reversals occur before the plants flower in their natural genders.
Some plants will flower normally without a cutting of the photoperiod. But more often, females will not form thick buds unless the light cycle is cut to a period of 12 hours duration. Don't make the light cycle any shorter than 12 hours, unless the females have not shown flowers after three weeks of 12-hour days. Then cut the light cycle to 11 hours. Flowers should appear in about one week.
Anytime the light cycle is cut to less than 11 hours, some intersexes or reversed plant usually develop. This fact leads to a procedure for increasing the numbers of female flowers indoors. The crops can be grown for three months under a long photoperiod (18 or more hours of light). The light cycle is then cut to 10 hours. Although the harvest is young (about five months) there will be many more female flower buds than with normal flowering. More plants will develop female flowers initially, and male plants usually reverse to females after a few weeks of flowering.
Of the other environmental factors that can affect sexual expression in Cannabis, none are as predictable as the photoperiod. Factors such as nutrients or pruning affect the plant's overall health and metabolism, and can be dealt with by two general thoughts. First, good growing conditions lead to healthy plants and normal flowering: female and male plants occur in about equal numbers, with few (if any) intersexes or reversed plants. Poor growing conditions lead to reduced health and vigour, and oftentimes to confused sex in the adult plant. Second, the age of the plants seems to influence reversals. Male plants often show female flowers when the plant is young (vigorous) during flowering. Females seven or more months old (weaker) often develop male flowers after flowering normally for a few weeks.
Anytime the plant's normal growth pattern is disrupted, normal flowering may be affected. For instance, plant propagated from cuttings sometimes reverse sex, as do those grown for more than one season.

im pretty sure thats from breeders bible.... little more reputable than Wiki i think lol

 

[darwinsbulldog]

You're right... IF we're going to have a REAL discussion about this...then by all means, we should use the correct terminology.

Good luck with that though... EVERYONE calls them hermies!

I don't know...sometimes I feel "Wiki is good enough". We're all amateurs just playing around, asking some basic questions.

Other times, I agree with you. If you're going to do it, do it right, use the correct terminology. But then, you lose people quickly. You go over their head.

What are you going to tell a guy who asks "How does THC get you high?"? Are you going to go into the BBB (brain blood barrier)? Talk about molecular transport across a membrane? How about Cannabis receptors? If he's a typical kid these days...he'll get a glaze in his eyes and say...yup, thanks...without a clue to what you just said.

I mentioned englishrick not to say anything bad about him...just to say that I'm fairly science savvy...and I had no clue to what he was referring to. I have a feeling it was gibberish...but I'm not familiar enough with the subject. He could be an expert in the field WAY over my head.

It's tough to have a good discussion when not with peers...

Back to the males showing female expression... I've heard of quite a few. Considering that in MY experience. Getting 1 in maybe 5 males that I've EVER allowed to live past preflower...it's 20%. I really think that IF we were to let more males live...we'd see behavior more like females. Hermi females.

Cannabis (the "seed market") has been selected for non hermi females. I would guess that in "our market", the commercial seed market, and any seeds derived from them, that there are artificially low numbers of hermi females because it's been bred out of them. Think about it...it's the #1 thing people seem to try to avoid in the seed stock...yet it's still here. I think it's DEEP in the genes. And I think there are just as many...probably more...males that turn female...like mine did. We just never let the males go long enough to express it.

Take care...

yeah mate i'm totally on board with you, what i was mainly pointing out though was when someone like headband is going to diss on feminized seeds, the process, the result etc and makes huge claims then he needs to back them up with more than just what a single wiki page says on it. but yes i agree with everything you stated 100%, and i too am far from an expert and also need things dumbed down from time to time so i definitely respect that with other people who are experienced or not, or have a background in science or not. all the best

 

[englishrick]

englishrick...I can't read his posts because I'm not about to go look up all that jargon! This isn't the place for it. Speak simply...it can be done. Just a suggestion englishrick...just a suggestion.

its cool ibjammin,,,,,

but i honestly feel some words i use a fundermental in breeding,,,like , "homozygote",,,"deleterious mutations",,,"co dominance",,,,"overdominance",,,"polygeneric",,,"epistatic",,,etc,,,,just by googling the above words you can become more hardcore with your weed

4th of july by kelise,,,wickid track
i listen to this sh1t when i write my posts,,boppin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fg4WkoOihY

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Well according to some in this thread a male is only "XY" and a female that is "XX" cannot be a male.

I'm wondering what those people attribute male flowers on an "XX" plant to... do they even admit that it happens?

Simply curious...

i was trying to convey to someone at some point stuff about sex determination and didn't want to get too complex so stayed to the XX and XY version though i know it's much more advanced than that it's hard to jump in the deep end with people who don't have a genetics or biology background.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Well I think that the genes for stamen en pistillate are in every plant, X or Y. But that the suppressing factor of half of those traits is on the sex-chromosomes.

i'd say you may be right, guess we won't really know until the genome of cannabis is sequenced and we know where the genes for sexual determination lie. but yeah it's highly plausible that they're either on the X or other chromosomes, talking about staminate genes, not isolated on the Y chromosome, in which case all plants would have the genes for both pistillate and staminate flowers.

Well they do...how are you going to change that? What would you have us call them? Remember...it has to be catchy and easy to type. Or nobody will change.

I don't know...weed smokers put regular procrastinators to shame. They're not known for their "energy". I don't see a movement coming any time soon.

Personally, I don't see how constitutionally, the government can outlaw a plant. I didn't see it in there anywhere. As a moral person of sound mind, I believe the Constitution gives me the right to do just about anything I wish. I hurt nobody smoking weed. What is the protection the government is providing...and to whom?

it shouldn't matter if it's catchy or not, for me i don't care as long as it's the correct terminology, it seems that the problem is that the average person doesn't understand anything about their own biology let alone that of Cannabis, and by breeders and growers alike misusing the word hermaphrodite or "hermie" to explain what occurs with plants that become intersex or monoecious it scares a lot of people. hermie's become one of those dreaded terms that people cringe at when it's mentioned. if people had a better understanding of what is really going on with the biology of a plant, why "intersex-ism" occurs (maybe that's what would could term it lol intersexism, intersex, or intersexie haha) and how it can be passed on, prevented, selected against etc the community would only benefit. but yeah i don't think laziness is a valid excuse for not wanting to correct the majority when they are very definitely wrong in using the term "hermie" to explain intersex plants. i'm just that anal scientist minded kinda person who needs to always be using correct language and terms etc, and if i work out i'm wrong or am kindly corrected i've no problem switching to whatever it is, that way i look like less of a fool next time i talk about it.

its cool ibjammin,,,,,

but i honestly feel some words i use a fundermental in breeding,,,like , "homozygote",,,"deleterious mutations",,,"co dominance",,,,"overdominance",,,"polygeneric",,,"epistatic",,,etc,,,,just by googling the above words you can become more hardcore with your weed

4th of july by kelise,,,wickid track
i listen to this sh1t when i write my posts,,boppin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fg4WkoOihY

i totally agree with you rick, i even have to go back and google or wiki these words to refresh and remind myself of their proper definitions from time to time so it's definitely worth doing for anyone who wants to know a little more about this beloved plant

 

[headband 707]

Hum what is in headband707's head LOL I'll lets you know when I find out lol.. Can't say I'm a sativa lover but there are some out there I've had I wouldn't throw away. To each his own I always say. Some say you either like sativa or indica and I lean to indica. PK ,GC as far as hermies I still cull all the hermies I run into in my grow as I have no time or space to fuck around with them. Don't know about anyone else and I'm never happy when I'm told that the strain has been worked with and it hasn't and I buy it and it turns this is what I call a rip off on the net.Still doesn't mean I don't want that out of my grow bro. I can still find DJ's work interesting but not like his bud. peace out Headband707

 

[cannaboy]

I will use the terminoligy I want as most books tell lies and some encounters on the way are not explained in terminoligy already outlined has flaws.. and terminoligy that sesies to exist is not termnioligy but discussion tools to copy and paste SHIT.

 

[lumenator]

dont have an epispazm. youre a true polipidity.. Now, if youre dungi over yickalotta, thats half the wigliggi, baby.

 

[cannaboy]

dont have an epispazm. youre a true polipidity.. Now, if youre dungi over yickalotta, thats half the wigliggi, baby.

Classic my signature will be this,,

 

[TLoft13]

Very interesting discussion, thanks to all contributors.
I have an related question and some of you bright heads should be able to help me out:
Is there a quantifiable difference in the heterogenity between:
Regular F2s
Selfed F2s aka S1
Femmed seeds from F1 (SF2s?)
I'm asking because i've read on more than one occasion that the latter two are more heterogen, but that makes no sense, doesn't it?
Greetz,
TLoft13

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The numbers for the F2's and the R2's should be the same. The S1 will be more homogeneous than either of the others at the same generation, however you asked about selfed F2...and I have to assume you mean selfed F1, which would be the generation to compare to the others.

 

[latscholax]

I´d prefer regulars anytime, because it seems more natural to me. i´ve tried few femmed beans and it´s the same as with regular stuff outta my expreience: some do well some don´t(as regular breeds also)...had blackjack and an SAD from a friend as clones which didn´t turn out too bad, but nothing special. dusted a branch each with an proven dad and ALL progeny turned out runts/slow growth/all males....so carefull with breeding such strains...
had a few FMS, which where all great, but i didn`t try to cross any of them...
I got some STS around just for the case of preserving a strain... which i did sometimes with success,but only if theres no access to regular males/seeds. for instance on a 6 year old blockhead mommy, that didn`t want to stop throwing out preflowers/clones didn`t grow anymore, even under 24h of light. The seeds turned out very uniform and even a cross with a male was successful.Same on an very old Satdom NL clone...
if u can get regular go with them, especially if you do some crossing ....greez