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Vertical Closet FLO rDWC

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
Education is expensive.

Education is expensive.

pH was stable for two days, then climbed to 6.1 (could be irrelevant and simply the accuracy of the pen). Maybe more nitrogen is being taken up as the plant's chemical needs are changing (transition into full flower / rebuilding roots), or the pH rise is the result of the root decay in the system, or because the month of June is the six month of the year, or some combination of the three. I really don't know.

Rather than petition to remove June from the calendar, I'm choosing to attack the crappy condition of the root zone with the chlorine methodology. It is cheap, but will it be effective? When I establish new and healthy root growth, I plan on another res clean out, debris removal, and then have considered adding beneficials to the system. My thought is not so much as a direct preventative measure, but as an effort to proactively keep the recirculating system stabilized and assist in the nutrient uptake; of course, in theory, this would generate a healthier root zone and thereby reduce the possibility of such nastiness in the future. Or, as a simpler alternative, I could just not poison my girl.

Passive res dropped ~1 gallon since yesterday, and ambient temps have been low. I'm choosing to interpret this as plant transpiration rather than direct reservoir evaporation. Certainly not the four gallon uptake that I was experiencing before this situation, but promising...

An observation: I experienced my first physical leaf burn of the run immediately following the lack of H2O uptake. This is consistent with Krunchbubble's description in the early part of his current MPB run that his plants were growing within 6" of a bare 1000 without burning. My interpretation: the positive pressure of fluid through active high levels of transpiration is protecting the leaf from immediate heat source...

????? Presuming I could sell my liver to raise the funds, should I consider some product like H&G root accelerator to try and regenerate my root mass?????? F'n expensive... not to mention that I have no idea what it really is...

No. I always try to fix problems with money. This is not a sustainable approach, considering the limitation of that resource.

Moreover, this is a learning experience. This run, although another shit-show, went better than the last. I feel like my system design is an improvement. For a moment, I caught a glimpse of the RDWC growth that is being made famous in the undercurrent and DD's MPB system. I am beginning to develop a sense of perspective on the strengths and liabilities of such a system, from medium through nutrient supply systems. I'm developing a perspective on the relationship between nutrient supplies and nutrient buffers. I am gaining perspective on root structures and their relationship to water levels, etc. This, in the end, is not a bad thing.

It may be true that learning derives from our failures rather than our blind and easy successes.

I just wish I wasn't learning so much.
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
Fatman's Chlorox recomendations:

Fatman's Chlorox recomendations:

Well, to say that I'm learning is likely a lie.

Do to the idiosyncrasies of my design, it isn't possible to to a full drain during lights-off... so I swapped the passive res twice. And again, working out of my head, figured a solid 2mL Chlorox addition was the appropriate (albeit conservative) dosage to my system. Today, I reread the Chlorox thread, took appropriate notes and to clarify the back and forth of the first few pages of the posting. I once again saw how I got confused initially (I didn't remember that some of the volumes were based on a diluted solution), and saw where I failed to follow through accurately in the last few days...

Fatman's simplified recommendations (I'm probably overlooking something again.)

Preventative
Day one: 2mL per 10 gallons Chlorox from the bottle
Thereafter: 1 mL per 10 gallons

If you have Root Rot
5mL per gallon, as most of the chlorine concentration will to oxidize dead roots.

So, in a 40 gal system, at 5 mL / 10 gallons, I need 20mL to address this issue. So there we go. Added.

Looking at the roots tonight was more than disappointing...

Flower 2/12/15



Canopy showing signs of nutrient deficiency:

picture.php
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
I've introduced 45mL of Physan 20 into the reservoir. Instant foaming in the active res and that has moved into the root zone as I type.

I am concerned with the amount of dead root mass, and am uncertain on how to best remove it. I filled the tub with water, and bounced the root ball around last night. This dislodged a certain darkness (Liquid Karma again?), and dead organics. I was not very comfortable doing that, but I am beyond confused these days.

I am considering cycling Hygrozyme and Physan 20, in hopes that the dead organics will break down, get suspended in solution, and then and the Physan will slay the nasties as they come in to feed.

I elected to go with an initial cycle of Physan simply based on the cost and newness of the bottle: That is, I have lots more 45mL doses in the container, but only two full res change outs of Hygrozyme (which costs significantly more off the shelf anyway).
 

*mistress*

Member
Veteran
trim dead roots... if pruned, they should branch out w/ new tips...
apply h202 (regular 3%) @ 5ml (1 tsp) every other day... may help...
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
Hi mistress,

During the Physan 20 circulation (about two hours) I worked through the root mass and stripped out as much soft and mushy material as I dared. I used a submerged pump to hose down the root mass, and 'massaged' it much like one might have their head shampooed in the barber. The muck and slime is gone (for now). How much damage the root system sustained, and how much it can handle, I do not know.

Roots now:

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Currently, I there is a tap water flush of the system. After the Physan, I drained both the root zone and the active reservoir, added all water directly to the root zone, which flooded back into the active res, where I pumped it out, and added back to the root zone. Rinse and repeat times sixty gallons. So any Physan still in the system should be relatively dilute. (I can smell a chlorine odor from the passive res, which is curious. I think it might be the off-gassing of the chlorine leaving the chloramines behind. If I leave a glass of drinking water beside the bed overnight, it has a strong clorine odor associated with it, not present fresh from the tap.)

While the mass left attached to the net pot is hardly something to be proud of, it is significantly cleaner and less slimy than it was eight hours ago.

My current plan is to allow this res to cycle during the light cycle, and then change out at least half of it in 12-14 hours. Hopefully, the res will run dead long enough for the roots to recover, and the plant can drink up a little water for a couple of days.

I currently have Botanicare's TriFlex nutes, and intend to run them at 1/2 strength flower in a couple of days. (n:p:k::4:8:7) Close enough?

I am curious, mistress, why you think the pH should be run all the way down to 5.0?
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
After the last post, I removed the bottom third of the root mass, and manually untangled everything. There was a bunch of rotten organics suspended in the hammock:

picture.php


I was not gentle pulling apart the nappiness. Here's what was left:

picture.php


I went to bed... woke up and checked on her:

picture.php


Sadness.

Lights on for her today:

picture.php


Crappy pic, as always, but she looks great. You can see some of the foliage burns on the edges... when I had roots, this was not a problem... but she can't keep fluid in her cells when I killed off her roots.

Other notes: Set up RO / Bubbled batch of RO EWC + powdered bennies + hydrogard for cloner / cleaned cloner / dropped from 100w t-5s to a 20W CFL / put sprayer on cycle timer (10sec on, five minutes off)... when I get some loot I guess I'll get a kit of Rapid Rooters.

UPDATE:
Down to just 370W. Plant is wilting pretty badly again. Too few roots to keep up with the canopy, I guess. I'll give it another day or two... I am considering an 30% canopy prune, and reverting to veg. If I do it sooner than later, I'll only be a month behind. Which, for me, is ahead of schedule. I tossed unprepared cuttings into my cloner a few weeks ago, when everything was grand. If I had taken the time to take care of that situation, I might have some replacement plants on the go, and it would be pretty easy to clone this poor girl right back to nothing and start over... But as I didn't make adequate preparations, I have to decide how to best manage my time.
 

*mistress*

Member
Veteran
The form in which N is absorbed has an effect on the media pH. As NH4is absorbed, the plant releases H+ ions to maintain electrical balance, and therefore, the pH drops. As NO3 is absorbed, the pH increases due to presence of increased amounts of OH-ions.
generally, ph rises w/ n03- (nitrate nitrogen) absorption. @ 5.0 & ph drift up to 5.8 or so in 3-5 day.


 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
Dear mistress,

My pH drifted up to 5.8 this evening, so I tossed in some pH down. Just for you. Down to low fives. We'll watch the drift over the next couple of days. ppm is stable at 580ish (no uptake).

I picked up some Rapid Rooters, and took a bunch of cuttings from the interior of the plant. My plan, god willing, is to grow out three FLOs, running one in some version of this sketch RDWC and two in smartpots coco/chow DTW. Maybe I'll follow your formula on the coco.

Definitely N migration from the lower growth. Pulled a lot of those leaves. I'm looking to reduce transpiration while the roots reestablish themselves. However, maybe their sugars are necessary while the roots reestablish themselves. We'll see, I guess.

Roots are not funky at all. Firm. No slime. I just wonder if my aggressive handling has left just celulose stalks all-a-dangle. I mean, even when you cut a plant, there's still a root ball that won't go away. I wonder if that's the case in this case?

Reintroduced indirect air circulation.

Added the second light at 370W, so 740W on two sides. Three hours into light, and no wilt. Yay?
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
pH went crazy.

Only way I could manage the wilt was to pull the light. A no light grow is no good. No evidence of root rot returning, but the roots never recovered from my abuse. No signs of regrowth.

I pulled the plug today.

Sliced up all her stable growth for clones. Hopefully, something will root.

Time to clean, rethink, redesign, and regrow.

Best wished to everyone out there.

This diary is done.
 

superusa

Member
pH went crazy.

Only way I could manage the wilt was to pull the light. A no light grow is no good. No evidence of root rot returning, but the roots never recovered from my abuse. No signs of regrowth.

I pulled the plug today.

Sliced up all her stable growth for clones. Hopefully, something will root.

Time to clean, rethink, redesign, and regrow.

Best wished to everyone out there.

This diary is done.

Wow, sorry for the bad luck man. In the future I have found florashield to be effective at defeating root rot with the quickness.

That said, start simple. Liquid Karma is probably not the best additive to start out running in DWC (not saying it can't be done). Bio-buckets operate on a different principle with the lava rocks proving a "bed" for the bennies. Good luck on your next run. I'll try to check in and help you out
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
So many things are different now than they were when I began... (vague, but true.)

With a nod toward bio-buckets, my media was lava rocks. My solution level, however, was not maximized as described in the bio-bucket sticky (only covered a few inches, instead of the whole bucket).

For years, I grew alone and in isolation. I 'invented' dwc in that same dark, without ever reading of it. And I had more than adequate results for my needs.

Now I am somewhere else. Circumstances change. Life change. Nutes are different. Water is different. Experiences are different.

I believe that my mistake was in the way that I managed the organic content of my solution... that is... how I addressed the dead organics. Traumatized by my last grow, I grew anxious when my root mass started to change in quality. Up to that point, all was golden. I made a gross mistake in chlorine application rates (trusting too much in my brain when maybe it was a bit hazy) and slayed my roots, which generated the exact environment I feared. And I failed to correct in a timely manner... well, 'failed' sums it up.

In my struggles, I have watched a lot. I have looked into other fields. Cross-referenced searches... I have new ideas... even as other ideas and guidance disappear '.........'.

Please watch out for me... and please check in when I start my next grow.
Best wishes.
 

Zealious

Member
Dont be so hard on your self bud. you did a great job..

Keep up the green! Maybe go more simple..

In my understanding of organics microbeasties dont like to live in water.. they live in soil. thats why its impossible to go organic with hydroponics unless its drain to waste.

chlorine kills microbeasties.
Chemicle nutes kill Microbeasties..
a well colonized root system is not bright white.. It has a brown tint.. the way to know if is a good brown or a bad brown is to smell the roots.. if they smell sort of sweet then its Micros. if its stinky its root rot.

If you go hydroponic go synthetic ferts.. Well sure synthetic organic blens do probly offer more to the plant.
if you go organic.. go soil and you get to recycle your soil.. over and over again.
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
Zelious,

Yeah man...

Out of a kagillion cuts, I have two rooted... hoping for three. The two rooted girls (FLO) are already in coco and showing signs (if you look really carefully) of starting to start growing. I plan on moving those to ten gallon smart pots, DTW, with a 75/25 chunky perlite/coco mix. Maybe feed with Tromfs or whatever the hell they are called (I have it all written down somewhere). I love being with my girls and spend as much time as I can with 'em. But I think the girls appreciate the consistency of automation more than I do.

When I get a third rooted, I'll run her in a net pot, and keep playing with techy/risky things like a rDWC set up or some kind of uber-prone-to-fail aero set up. A blend between a conservative approach and my compulsive need to tinker and tech and under-think growers that are smarter and more experienced than me (you know, because why would I run a predictable/proven systems?).

It seems like, for me, advice is only meaningful to me in retrospect.

As for the micros: I've got plenty of thoughts but no pics or sucessess that justify them I'll pick up on that in some later date. 'Course, most of that thought is based on working around rDWC's inherent challenges. I have slowly come to terms with the idea that there are options that do not need so much help.

I'm committed to two plants in this next run in coco... and the last girl in something I haven't built yet... (If rDWC, it'll be modified from my current build... most of the parts will be salvaged, but I'll need new containers at least to correct some things that bothered me.) Hopefully, in a proper tent too...

Best of luck... I'll keep watching your work.

Peace.
 
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