A few breeding questions

[darwinsbulldog]

but at the same time, inbreeding depression can be a good thing like with the Mauritius pigeon, population dropped to <10 individuals and there was huge inbreeding because of the bottle neck, but by doing so, initially there were issues with doubling up of recessive deleterious alleles, but as that happens and individuals with them are inviable or suffer a fitness cost, they'll be lost from the gene pool thus strengthening it! now their population is in the 100s possibly 1000s and could potentially be as strong if not stronger than it was before hand. everything has it's place/use when it comes to evolution, it always wins.

so what initially may be a really unhealthy gene pool, through inbreeding depression etc you can end up ok. haven't seen any papers on it with respect to cannabis though.

 

[toryscum]

but at the same time, inbreeding depression can be a good thing like with the Mauritius pigeon, population dropped to <10 individuals and there was huge inbreeding because of the bottle neck, but by doing so, initially there were issues with doubling up of recessive deleterious alleles, but as that happens and individuals with them are inviable or suffer a fitness cost, they'll be lost from the gene pool thus strengthening it! now their population is in the 100s possibly 1000s and could potentially be as strong if not stronger than it was before hand. everything has it's place/use when it comes to evolution, it always wins.

so what initially may be a really unhealthy gene pool, through inbreeding depression etc you can end up ok. haven't seen any papers on it with respect to cannabis though.

Yes undiserables are quickly brought to the fore and eliminated... did you do anything with them SamS or ditch ?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

By the 3rd selfing of individuals all plants were suffering from inbreeding depression. But it did not matter for my goal.

-SamS

 

[toryscum]

By the 3rd selfing of individuals all plants were suffering from inbreeding depression. But it did not matter for my goal.

-SamS

safe to say then, they served their purpose. and where of value for a particular project ?

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

My experience selfing was accidental. I just had a plant that pollinated itself with a late banana, and was left long enough after to develop seeds. If I remember correct, the seeds were from some very good stuff grown in Kentucky by a guy named Jim Smith. Ring a bell anyone? I had quite a few to start with, but they all turned out to be female 'feminized' as we call them now. Since I never got a male JS in that first batch, I felt a bit lucky when a plant made it's own seeds. But, the feeling wore off when all those seeds (F2) were female and out of probably 60+, didn't have enough variation to mean much. I didn't go any further with the selfing, because I didn't see why I should. Seemed like beating a dead horse. I just solved it in my usual way and outcrossed. So, I've never selfed plants on purpose since then, but over the years I've had quite a few selfed seeds thrown my way, and always found the same problem; lack of variation. What can I say, I like variation! I'm sure you do too, Sam.

About 'the numbers', I learned plant breeding as a tot from my ancient, organic gardening grandmother who had her own strains of tomatoes, beans, lettuce, squash etc. I'm not even going to go into a discussion about selective pressure here, but I will point out that during the mid 70's, I lived in a 3k sq ft loft in Brooklyn and had a HUUUUUge indoor garden with many HID's. Also, during that time, I was quite the 'nazi' and made very few crosses, mainly spending my time maintaining and selecting IBL's. As Sam can no doubt tell you, that takes some population size.

I don't mind discussing breeding, but I get bored easily when I have to keep defending myself. Folks can learn much more from me by asking me questions than trying to prove that I'm a crank, which is unfortunately not true.

 

[Custy Noob]

it doesn't fucking matter how big or small a pool of genes you are working with if your discrimination lacks depth


the reason the cannabis gene pool is getting downgraded is simple

the death of insane genetics in the mainstream are a result of down breeding.

All greed based

some get downbred to avoid detection ( yeah stank = dank and commercially really stank pot makes cashing harder)

add to the the fact no one is a real smoker

do no other substance but WEED, smoke nothing but the same exact nuggets for a number of years, smoke all day and tell me when you found the right one cause if that hasn't been your test you are far behind those who came before you

the 5 boroughs dank in the 90s had to cut through the hard drugs to put you down .. the old school dank, the same nug always cut through, never got played

not that they don''t exist, these epic genes but the people with the discrimination to breed em

REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY MAKE THAT HAPPEN

LMAO

fucking very few and far between


ill take a discriminating palate over genetic botany skills any day because otherwise you are putting the cart before the horse

if your a breeder and your a not a true passionate pot head connoisseur, to me thats like a chef who doesn't eat his own food

the true heads that breed all have some magic in some way shape or form and I see both sides of the seeming contradictions

keep on keeping on

simple came to spill

 

[toryscum]

My experience selfing was accidental. I just had a plant that pollinated itself with a late banana, and was left long enough after to develop seeds. If I remember correct, the seeds were from some very good stuff grown in Kentucky by a guy named Jim Smith. Ring a bell anyone? I had quite a few to start with, but they all turned out to be female 'feminized' as we call them now. Since I never got a male JS in that first batch, I felt a bit lucky when a plant made it's own seeds. But, the feeling wore off when all those seeds (F2) were female and out of probably 60+, didn't have enough variation to mean much. I didn't go any further with the selfing, because I didn't see why I should. Seemed like beating a dead horse. I just solved it in my usual way and outcrossed. So, I've never selfed plants on purpose since then, but over the years I've had quite a few selfed seeds thrown my way, and always found the same problem; lack of variation. What can I say, I like variation! I'm sure you do too, Sam.

They had no variation for a reason, maybe you just didn't know why?

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Hey, I obviously just don't know anything. Apparently, in the 70's I was even worse. I was a greedy, non smoking, gene degrading, punnet square ignoring, indiscriminate follower (who I was following has not yet been determined). So, why was I asked back to this thread again? Seriously folks, there's nothing to see here...move along.

 

[toryscum]

Hey, I obviously just don't know anything. Apparently, in the 70's I was even worse. I was a greedy, non smoking, gene degrading, punnet square ignoring, indiscriminate follower (who I was following has not yet been determined). So, why was I asked back to this thread again? Seriously folks, there's nothing to see here...move along.

sorry if your feelings get hurt so easy, I tend to leave feelings aside in a debate or in search of facts.

From what I can read you have preserved plenty and theres no harm there from my point of view, but selfing has a purpose as does preservation... what f number is cherry bomb at? is it still very diverse? have you took lines from it and experimented with selfing etc.. is the aim to keep great diversity for others to explore?

We all have different views its part of life...

 

[dustin27]

I'd take Greengenes word over toryscum. Theres something about a bar full of green rep and a thousand post count... If he was full of shit, or went around starting " I know more than you" arguments, he wouldnt be as highly revered around here as he is . . .


Not that anyone is wrong, because I am not knowledgeable to know, but I asked a question and from I remember Green was helping, when things turned into "who knows more".
The point to prove is to answer the questions and help each other out, the lesser experienced grower, like me, not to prove who has the bigger ego.

 

[toryscum]

I'd take Greengenes word over toryscum. Theres something about a bar full of green rep and a thousand post count... If he was full of shit, or went around starting " I know more than you" arguments, he wouldnt be as highly revered around here as he is . . .

interesting just go with the squares, if you don't know the reason for lack of variation as well, don't comment! and sorry but he can be more than rude and has been on a number of occasions.

I'll stay away.

 

[dustin27]

Whatever guys, I'm sorry I got involved. I started a question and I think in there somewhere I can divulge an answer, and thats what counts; thanks everyone for the input.

 

[toryscum]

I'd take Greengenes word over toryscum. Theres something about a bar full of green rep and a thousand post count... If he was full of shit, or went around starting " I know more than you" arguments, he wouldnt be as highly revered around here as he is . . .


Not that anyone is wrong, because I am not knowledgeable to know, but I asked a question and from I remember Green was helping, when things turned into "who knows more".
The point to prove is to answer the questions and help each other out, the lesser experienced grower, like me, not to prove who has the bigger ego.

nice edit, no one was point scoring, he took offence quite easily IMO, yet seems to be offhand with others at times, I am simply trying to pick his brain nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I didn't take offense so much as I got bored. I'm sorry if I seem offhand at times, but I'm much worse in person. In 'real life', I'm what you'd call severely autistic, and communicating with people only by words like I do online, is a great relief and comfort to me. Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful, I only come here to help and make friends. I will try to pay more attention, but talks about breeding seem to always descend into me having to prove myself, which I think I've already done...? In some circles anyway.

 

[toryscum]

I didn't take offense so much as I got bored. I'm sorry if I seem offhand at times, but I'm much worse in person. In 'real life', I'm what you'd call severely autistic, and communicating with people only by words like I do online, is a great relief and comfort to me. Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful, I only come here to help and make friends. I will try to pay more attention, but talks about breeding seem to always descend into me having to prove myself, which I think I've already done...? In some circles anyway.

I'm not asking you to prove anything, you have preserved a worthy line IMO, one I'm interested in... and my apologies i had no idea about the autism etc, I'm severely dyslexic and get annoyed at myself for basic errors most of the time.. like I said earlier I'm here to pick brains..

So with that out of the way, what F number is the CB at? and hows the variation? are certain things locked into the line?

Regards

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Cherry Bomb is somewhere between F15 and F22. I've kept records over the last 15 years, but previous to that I was too paranoid to write stuff down, so I can only estimate. Variation or whatever you want to call it, of CB is something you can check yourself, assuming the server fund folks get them (I sent a fat sack) up on seedbay. More questions?

 

[toryscum]

Cherry Bomb is somewhere between F15 and F22. I've kept records over the last 15 years, but previous to that I was too paranoid to write stuff down, so I can only estimate. Variation or whatever you want to call it, of CB is something you can check yourself, assuming the server fund folks get them (I sent a fat sack) up on seedbay. More questions?

thanks for the info.. I'll have to get a seedbay account then! out of interest are the particular phenos to go for? (obviously a cherry flav) and at what freq will I find them? roughly just so I know how many packs to get..

thx for your time.

@dustin, hope you don't mind the little detour/hijack.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

The seedbatch I mailed is nearly open pollinated. I rogued about 1/5th of the population, and that left 18 females and about the same number of males contributing. The batch that this generation came from was what I call a KS, or 'kitchen sink', meaning I threw together seeds from different generations (F's). Reason being that earlier generations of CB will have a bit more variation. Most will have slightly lower potency, looser bud structure, more red-stem and cherry flavor. I planted a KS batch to promote as much variation in my donated seeds as possible. People are more likely to find the plants they want that way. I made the packs into 12 each, I don't think you'll need more than that to get a good representation. If your aim is to cross, using the CB males will work well because they're going to influence future generations in such a way that it will be easy to sort out CB traits from whatever the other source contributes. Going the other way may not be so easy unless you have another IBL that you, or someone else, is very familiar with.

 

[dustin27]

@dustin, hope you don't mind the little detour/hijack.

Not at all, I'm always still learnin from what you guys have to say.

 

[dustin27]

.. like I said earlier I'm here to pick brains..

Hey while I have you guys here:
Worst case scenario; If I had a "stable strain" ibl. ect, female, but no male, could I just let it flower late and extract pollen to use on a fresh female clone, to make seeds of that strain. Since I have no males, hypothetically?