Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Balarama67]

I'm going to give this a go - I have some ladies in veg and some just started in flower -
so I'll be trimming later today - barbershop style - any requests?!

Thanks for the OP and thanks to all who have said it works for them -
that is what has given me the confidence to give this a shot.

 

[InducedSerenity]

Thanks for the kind words and reinforcement. I needed that.

Its safe to say that in the amount of time I spent reading and acquiring my gear, I could have grown and cured a crop.

Isn't that the truth... I think in my case it could have been 2-3 crops

I'm finally started on my first grow and my clones had been pretty heat stressed from the first couple of days - I've already removed more than half of the leaves due to that damage alone, so I guess I'm on my way to give this a shot.

 

[VerdantGreen]

ive worked out who you are - Edward Scissorhands !!!

VG

Before

After

 

[El Toker]

It's been interesting reading, but I still have my doubts. When I look at the above post the first picture shows a distribution of leaves that captures nearly all of the light falling onto that area.

On the second photo most of the light passes through the plant to the floor.

I don't understand why a plant only capable of catching half as much light should have more energy for creating new plant material.

Under optimum conditions there's practically a direct correlation between the amount of light falling onto the plant and it's rate of growth. Up to 50W pSqM you get a straight line. e.g. You should get more than twice as much yield out of a 600 W than you can out of a 250 W. Many growers compare their results by grammes per watt. Yet this technique has most of the light shinning onto the ground below the pot and never touching the plant.

I also don't understand why the net is so high above the pot, there seems to be about a foot there, when you only need an inch.

However, stranger things have been true, so I'll wait until a few brave souls have risked their yields to check this out.

 

[ibuster57]

Ive always defoliated my outdoor crops two weeks before harvest. Fan leaves go early august before flowering starts. Always wary of removing too many leaves indoors because of the reduced lighting. I just pluck the ones that shade lower branches and bud sights.
Will experiment in the fall when I move back inside. Great post

 

[Motta-Tokka]

I just trimmed and supercropped all of my ladies. Thanks for reminding me guys! I was wondering why these ladies were kinda sucking but then I remembered I have been messing with these girls WAYYY less than I did last time. The last grow was INSANE because of proper trimming and supercropping. Anyone running full sativa landraces can have some real fun doing this. I started Celestial Temple sativa with a top, then I supercropped both of those colas right from clone. She grew into a hybrid looking bush! Seriously awesome.

 

[darrmann]

ok im totally with you on everything, just one question. Do you have to bend them or can this technique of defoliation work without bending?

 

[darrmann]

It's been interesting reading, but I still have my doubts. When I look at the above post the first picture shows a distribution of leaves that captures nearly all of the light falling onto that area.

On the second photo most of the light passes through the plant to the floor.

I don't understand why a plant only capable of catching half as much light should have more energy for creating new plant material.

Under optimum conditions there's practically a direct correlation between the amount of light falling onto the plant and it's rate of growth. Up to 50W pSqM you get a straight line. e.g. You should get more than twice as much yield out of a 600 W than you can out of a 250 W. Many growers compare their results by grammes per watt. Yet this technique has most of the light shinning onto the ground below the pot and never touching the plant.

I also don't understand why the net is so high above the pot, there seems to be about a foot there, when you only need an inch.

However, stranger things have been true, so I'll wait until a few brave souls have risked their yields to check this out.

what i want to know is are you getting 12 oz. a plant, if so show us your technique if not quit being a doubter

 

[k33ftr33z]

It's been interesting reading, but I still have my doubts. When I look at the above post the first picture shows a distribution of leaves that captures nearly all of the light falling onto that area.

On the second photo most of the light passes through the plant to the floor.

I don't understand why a plant only capable of catching half as much light should have more energy for creating new plant material.

Under optimum conditions there's practically a direct correlation between the amount of light falling onto the plant and it's rate of growth. Up to 50W pSqM you get a straight line. e.g. You should get more than twice as much yield out of a 600 W than you can out of a 250 W. Many growers compare their results by grammes per watt. Yet this technique has most of the light shinning onto the ground below the pot and never touching the plant.

I also don't understand why the net is so high above the pot, there seems to be about a foot there, when you only need an inch.

However, stranger things have been true, so I'll wait until a few brave souls have risked their yields to check this out.

Maybe you missed the part about 1.2gpw average on mine, or the 12oz diesel I just posted on the previous page. Risky... eh.

That plant that has the light shining through is on it's 4th or 5th deleafing. For some funny reason it keeps growing more leaves and will yield 10-12 oz....without any leaves, imagine that. And less than 30" tall. Need any more evidence.

That net is actually 15" above the pot and need not be any lower. It is at that height to provide some support to the branches that are layed out radially to soak up all that light. Any lower and it would not provide any support.

The key parts of the plant are still there, that would be the budsites. They are soaking up plenty of light and there will be a whole new canopy of leaves any day.

I know this is quite hard to understand...that is why I have posted so many pictures and so have the other participants. Your doubts are natural, that is the purpose of this thread, to post the real evidence. Hopefully you are able to take time to see it and you won't be as confused.

 

[k33ftr33z]

ok im totally with you on everything, just one question. Do you have to bend them or can this technique of defoliation work without bending?

Bending is not mandatory. It is part of my strategy to have most of the productive structure arranged into a horizontal plane. My compartment is designed for this and yours may not be.

I'll be doing a thread in time about grow compartment design that will go deeper into this and why it makes sense over tall plants. Basically light diminishes as a factor of distance in a vertical column. If you allow plants to stretch you leave the lower and mid behind as you raise the light. My strategy is to keep the light as low and as close as possible to get the most out of the wattage and thus I must bend and shape to keep things from going vertical. Just as shading leaves are undesirable so is excess height. So bending is a part of the process and should be explored as a part of the strategy to maximize yield.

 

[_Dude]

experience is science.

Especially in this biz. Not like we can dial an expert, lol.

 

[_Dude]

Actually the space pictured is the roomiest ever for my setup and they still demand deleafing attention.

I SOGGed for years using various spacings from 4"-12" until it became clear that SOG was overrated and far more work. As spacing increased to now at 32" it seems that SOG theory was a dream that it could produce more than larger plants in a given space. It sounded good but proper training of a large plant replicates the space efficiency of SOG.

You seem to be saying that yields for SOGs and properly trained bush grows are the same. If so, then SOG IS more efficient, since you can use that veg light for flowering another SOG.

 

[Harinama]

I've been deploying this method out of a gut instinct over the years, but my mind always told me i was crazy. Nice to see others are applying it even more intensely to great effect. I've redoubled my efforts and snipped all fan leaves. I wait, however, until the budding joint has grown a bit, maybe 1/2".

Generally i just "snap" off the fanleaf below the joint, instead of leaving 1". Do you think that it may negatively affect the budding joints? If so i haven't noticed it.

I've also begun lollypopping much more to get rid of the lower, useless branches. Now the veg plants are big, healthy, airy and cleaned up. That will make for a better bloom cycle, bigger buds and much less trimming!

To clarify, so i should be continuing the fanleaf defoliation into bloom? Also, I noticed that you do it in "rounds". Is that better than just defoliating consistently as they are growing?

I would be happy to just get 2zips/plant, i have a good feeling about this next bloom round!

Thanx for teaching an 'ole dog new tricks!

 

[k33ftr33z]

You seem to be saying that yields for SOGs and properly trained bush grows are the same. If so, then SOG IS more efficient, since you can use that veg light for flowering another SOG.

Not sure I understand about which veg light to use instead for budding another SOG. Is it because of the extra veg time? If so, that is inconsequential in my setup.

My veg unit runs 2 x 70 watt hps cheapo(<$40) home depot outdoor lights. Sometimes I can get by with just the one 70w. This little unit provides as large and hefty a clone as necessary. By setting only six plants instead of a hundred in 40sq' the work is plenty easier. Whether those clones take a week(SOG) or a month(SCROG) to get to their appropriate size is inconsequential. The reason being that once the extra veg time has been factored into the overall timeline it becomes routine. Clones are just taken earlier back in the timeline.

I find it far easier to prepare large plants instead of small ones. The margin of error in getting uniformity and filling the grow space full of finished buds is just more forgiving with large trained plants. As long as a plant is of a proper minimum size it will fill the space in nugs.

SOGging at hi densities requires tight scheduling and reliable launches of many individuals. I'm not saying it cannot be done. I've done it and had consistently 1.2gpw and sometimes better. Good SOGGers are a testament to tight growroom management.

This is another subject to thread. I know it has been discussed at length, but perhaps not recently.

SOG is certainly a HI-Yield technique and defoliation was a part of my SOG routine. There is simply no case for me to produce a hundred clones when half dozen will do.

In short, Same yield, less work.

 

[smokefrogg]

my thai is bulking up, i applied this technique to her on the 1st., got more aggressive with it a few days later, the bud site growth seems to have accelerated quite a bit, i keep training to also allow more light to hit the bud sites, it seems a combination of defoliation and training for maximum light to bud sites is really making a difference in my tiny 250watt setup. thank you to all who are posting about experiences with this technique, i'm so glad i stumbled into this thread, i am kind of surprised it is working but at the same time it seems to make sense, more light directly on bud sites = bigger and faster growing bud sites, kind of a no brainer i guess hehe. THANK YOU!

 

[k33ftr33z]

I've been deploying this method out of a gut instinct over the years, but my mind always told me i was crazy. Nice to see others are applying it even more intensely to great effect. I've redoubled my efforts and snipped all fan leaves. I wait, however, until the budding joint has grown a bit, maybe 1/2".

Generally i just "snap" off the fanleaf below the joint, instead of leaving 1". Do you think that it may negatively affect the budding joints? If so i haven't noticed it.

I've also begun lollypopping much more to get rid of the lower, useless branches. Now the veg plants are big, healthy, airy and cleaned up. That will make for a better bloom cycle, bigger buds and much less trimming!

To clarify, so i should be continuing the fanleaf defoliation into bloom? Also, I noticed that you do it in "rounds". Is that better than just defoliating consistently as they are growing?

I would be happy to just get 2zips/plant, i have a good feeling about this next bloom round!

Thanx for teaching an 'ole dog new tricks!

It wasn't just your mind telling you that you are crazy. Conventional wisdom also works to punish the adventurous.

All the books, vids, pictures, columnists, "experts", etc. have all profoundly advised against this over the last 40 years. Even now the doubters are hopelessly wallowing in what they read when a simple experiment(which brings about personal experience) will show that at the very least defoliating is harmless and when used as a management technique can increase yield in controlled situations.

The only reason to allow a plant to leaf out completely is in outdoor situations when you want as large a plant as possible. In that case you can save deleafing for mid to late summer after full stretch and branching

I don't think snapping or however you remove the leaf is of any issue. In very damp climates you need to take more care but otherwise just dont damage the underside of the stem. I pinch or nip them off as fast as I can with the thumbnail, both handed. I clutch the plucked leaves in my other fingers until I have too much of a wad. That way I can keep working as fast as possible. I make no decisions about which leaf to remove other than if is large enough to be seen and obscuring anything below, it will be removed.

If you having to lollipop, your plants may be getting too tall or you are not deleafing enough. See my pics of the lower growth. Yes, by all means defoliate into bud. In fact if you have not defoliated by then, you are waiting too long. 2zips/plant...how about 10. Of course depends on your density/array.

I'm really going to have to start a SOG vs SCROG thread to discuss this further. There is a lot of wrestling with plant size, veg time, crowding, media, training/bending issues. It may be time to reopen the discussion for the sake of beginners who are trying to decide the path of least resistance. I think I can make a better case for large plant SCROG over any density SOG.

 

[k33ftr33z]

No-Brainer

No-Brainer

my thai is bulking up, i applied this technique to her on the 1st., got more aggressive with it a few days later, the bud site growth seems to have accelerated quite a bit, i keep training to also allow more light to hit the bud sites, it seems a combination of defoliation and training for maximum light to bud sites is really making a difference in my tiny 250watt setup. thank you to all who are posting about experiences with this technique, i'm so glad i stumbled into this thread, i am kind of surprised it is working but at the same time it seems to make sense, more light directly on bud sites = bigger and faster growing bud sites, kind of a no brainer i guess hehe. THANK YOU!

No-Brainer is right bro. When you see results before your eyes it only has you removing more leaf and training for the light. Keep it up.

 

[Balarama67]

I'm not claiming to be an expert but I'd like to offer these thoughts for discussion - not flaming...

Nature does not know best, even after millenia - all nature does is survive as well as it can, not as well as is possible.

Plants may well have adapted to survive being eaten somewhat (defloring?) - a bit for the herbivorous animals and enough for it to produce its seeds, offshoots, etc.

Our aims are therefore different to nature - hence tweaking, pruning, etc, taking off tomato, strawberry flowers before they bloom so that the remaining ones can fatten up for human consumption. This is what defloring does here...

The root mass has developed to take into account all the fan/sun leaves before we took them off - when denuded there is too much root mass and so roots do not develop at the same rate until the plant mass has caught up i.e. bud sites, and so we see an increase in bud site growth.

It doesn't matter how much light hits the floor as long as the plant itself is getting enough. Sure it's a waste of lumens, but hey lets go scrog to deal with that, no?

Over to you, what do you think?

btw, fwiw, I took my fan/sun leaves off 24 hours ago and my bud sites are already showing an improvement more than what I expected - first time I've done this is. Thanks guys.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I'm not claiming to be an expert but I'd like to offer these thoughts for discussion - not flaming...

Nature does not know best, even after millenia - all nature does is survive as well as it can, not as well as is possible.

Plants may well have adapted to survive being eaten somewhat (defloring?) - a bit for the herbivorous animals and enough for it to produce its seeds, offshoots, etc.

Our aims are therefore different to nature - hence tweaking, pruning, etc, taking off tomato, strawberry flowers before they bloom so that the remaining ones can fatten up for human consumption. This is what defloring does here...

The root mass has developed to take into account all the fan/sun leaves before we took them off - when denuded there is too much root mass and so roots do not develop at the same rate until the plant mass has caught up i.e. bud sites, and so we see an increase in bud site growth.

It doesn't matter how much light hits the floor as long as the plant itself is getting enough. Sure it's a waste of lumens, but hey lets go scrog to deal with that, no?

Over to you, what do you think?

btw, fwiw, I took my fan/sun leaves off 24 hours ago and my bud sites are already showing an improvement more than what I expected - first time I've done this is. Thanks guys.

Great post.

Good to hear your willing to risk a little for real knowledge.

I'm all for the nature thing in every sense. I think of this technique as enhancing nature rather than working against it. Cannabis takes many shapes and produces many products.

Pictures of hemp fields reveal a close planting that shades out unwanted side branching. The crowding produces a single all powerful mainstem, best thing for hemp fiber.

Seed planters would be breeding for oily or tasty seeds and planting accordingly.

This situation is for producing medicinal flowers indoors with limited directional light source. I manage accordingly.

 

[k33ftr33z]

As far as light hitting the floor..

My "floor" is the top of the buckets because they are inserted through the tabletop(floor). It's lined with B/W poly. I want the light to hit the bright white plastic. I want the light to reach the reflective doors and ends too. This creates as much reflective light as possible from all directions. Removing leaves allows this pass through and everyone is happy.