and the mines are gonna be mined anyway... might as well use the minerals.
The Organic Think Tank
- Thread starter NiteTiger
- Start date
EatMoGrass
Member
I have never used bone or blood(well maybe very little fish bone meal) as I do try to avoid any factory farmed soil amendments. However if I had a source for blood and bone meal from a family run organic farm I would consider using it as I have seen so many photos of others having great results with the stuff.
But yeah I agree and wouldn't touch/breath the commercial blood bone meals sourced from factory farms.
And I cant wait to grow my own alfalfa this fall for the first time. Alfalfa along with my homemade worm compost will go along way in supplying my needs. For next to nothing!
But yeah I agree and wouldn't touch/breath the commercial blood bone meals sourced from factory farms.
And I cant wait to grow my own alfalfa this fall for the first time. Alfalfa along with my homemade worm compost will go along way in supplying my needs. For next to nothing!
You know I've actually never thought about asking for the blood and bone, I think next time I will make sure I am there for the slaugter.
Phospate facilities will shut down in a heartbeat if demand drops, costs a lot of money to keep them places running, I've worked in abandoned plants as well, It's actually pretty cool running around an industrial wastland.
Phospate facilities will shut down in a heartbeat if demand drops, costs a lot of money to keep them places running, I've worked in abandoned plants as well, It's actually pretty cool running around an industrial wastland.
Make sure you pasteurize everything before grinding.
Wouldn't want to get mad cow or e coli some such.
R
RNDZL
I want to first say thank you very much for the compliments I have received
as much as I would like to take credit, I am simply reflecting some of the brilliance I learned from others over the years
The purpose of this thread can easily be lost if we don't reign it in.
I think if we define some goals, maybe some guidelines and purpose we could all benefit
First before I continue, the first and foremost let us not forget that we require diversity among our horticultural techniques.
Not one single technique is perfect in all situations, its very important to remember in THINK TANK thread, we are sharing practical experience and conjecture to form a more accurate vision
there is no right or wrong, there are only degrees of relativity
we are discussing an evolving science; we are discussing creating the next level of horticulture that is give the best and most biomass, in the most synergistic and ethical manner we can
Legal big business doesn't have the ethics the worst of us have, so lets stop comparing the evils of each other
all pot heads were created equal,let the haters in babylon judge each other
as much as I would like to take credit, I am simply reflecting some of the brilliance I learned from others over the years
The purpose of this thread can easily be lost if we don't reign it in.
I think if we define some goals, maybe some guidelines and purpose we could all benefit
First before I continue, the first and foremost let us not forget that we require diversity among our horticultural techniques.
Not one single technique is perfect in all situations, its very important to remember in THINK TANK thread, we are sharing practical experience and conjecture to form a more accurate vision
there is no right or wrong, there are only degrees of relativity
we are discussing an evolving science; we are discussing creating the next level of horticulture that is give the best and most biomass, in the most synergistic and ethical manner we can
Legal big business doesn't have the ethics the worst of us have, so lets stop comparing the evils of each other
all pot heads were created equal,let the haters in babylon judge each other
I try not to make a habit of arguing with mods, but out of curiosity are you referring to me?
There are a lot of OPINIONS being spouted about organics, most of it not factual. I'm trying to keep the conversation fact-based in order to settle a debate. I think a number of points have been made and conceded in this thread, and if being right makes me egotistical than so be it. If anyone can prove me wrong (in this thread or any other) please show me research to the contrary. But when it comes to facts, opinions are utterly worthless.
The research and studies that have been done on this topic are staggering, and have persisted for decades. When I see 99% of research papers finding in favor of hydroponics or salt ferts vs organics, does that make me wrong as the messenger? Or do I need to drag a bunch of PhD's in here personally so they can refute some of the craizer claims made in this thread?
I think it ends up that way, because what else is there to compare organics to? Nothing? We have to have a baseline of some sort.
Agreed, I think RNDZL is a valuable contributor to this thread.
I haven't had time to peruse the albums of others, but again I'm curious who you're referring to here.
True, there is always someone more proficient than you are in this game, but riddle me this: Is there more improvement to be had with organics, or mineral-based ferts? I would argue that organic users may have simpler feeding regimens (or none at all) but the upper echelon of salt ferts allow exploration of higher yielding and more efficient grows than organics can achieve.
Earthjuice in peat/worm/perlite.
Nice looking plants, what week are those at?
R
RNDZL
before i try to suggest and get some feedback on goals and directives i think we need to talk about the bigger picture
what is it about hydro organics that should get us excited
really what does hydro organic mean to ME in terms of cannabis horticulture
and this is real big because my relative definition differs a bit form the classical one, but i believe mine is more relative
Hydro Organic, as applicable to marijuana is feeding a inert (or mostly inert*) medium with components from the organic gardening ecosystem, that is, the natural world
as science has proven we can limit the environment and give the plant want it needs for optimal growth
and in fact the biggest argument against organics is not the cost, or the effort, its the fear that the "classical" scientific observation of perfect plant growth will throttled by an imperfect soil web
WRONG
in nature the soil web is self renewing, it is balanced.
in an environment tended by man we take responsibility for maintaining balance
this is the greatest failure in 20th century agriculture
let me explain
the reverse engineering of nature is so infantile, that we are still forgetting to duplicate a few more components in our redesigned artificial environments.
the biggest problem is our angle of attack
see the beauty of organic hydro is that you can get organic compound that are already available to the plant on an ionic level, and then you can add, culture and maintain a variety of specific bacteria and micrboial life that fills the void of biological balance
fish people ahve been doing this forever, creating systems that host a balanced array of microbials
We dont want to use microbes to take ions out of the organic compounds in the soil at their own pace because we can be interactive enough to measure exact densities of minerals for the benefit of maximum plant growth
its a huge paradigm that microbes have to make ions in the soil opposed to in a tea or even by a company for the ease of the gardener
now this is not complete organics, but not every one is a good fit for complete organics
we are however in a good position to create systems that have the benefits of science without deviating so far form the natural system that we need to augment the living world with the such a great percentage of toxic and caustic chemical solutions
in fact if we were to come up with microbrial "engines" that processed waste organics into raw ions we could use diverse sources for the same composition of macro and micro elements and off load the need for non waste organics by a great percentage
this is why i see compost teas as being so so so intriguing. In essence you are controlling the ionic and microbrial processes in the making of the tea giving you fast and more complete access to provided nutrients
how much amended soil goes to waste under utilized?
i can easily g off on a tangent and would like to avoid it but I think this highlights that some of our traditional fears may be immature
what is it about hydro organics that should get us excited
really what does hydro organic mean to ME in terms of cannabis horticulture
and this is real big because my relative definition differs a bit form the classical one, but i believe mine is more relative
Hydro Organic, as applicable to marijuana is feeding a inert (or mostly inert*) medium with components from the organic gardening ecosystem, that is, the natural world
as science has proven we can limit the environment and give the plant want it needs for optimal growth
and in fact the biggest argument against organics is not the cost, or the effort, its the fear that the "classical" scientific observation of perfect plant growth will throttled by an imperfect soil web
WRONG
in nature the soil web is self renewing, it is balanced.
in an environment tended by man we take responsibility for maintaining balance
this is the greatest failure in 20th century agriculture
let me explain
the reverse engineering of nature is so infantile, that we are still forgetting to duplicate a few more components in our redesigned artificial environments.
the biggest problem is our angle of attack
see the beauty of organic hydro is that you can get organic compound that are already available to the plant on an ionic level, and then you can add, culture and maintain a variety of specific bacteria and micrboial life that fills the void of biological balance
fish people ahve been doing this forever, creating systems that host a balanced array of microbials
We dont want to use microbes to take ions out of the organic compounds in the soil at their own pace because we can be interactive enough to measure exact densities of minerals for the benefit of maximum plant growth
its a huge paradigm that microbes have to make ions in the soil opposed to in a tea or even by a company for the ease of the gardener
now this is not complete organics, but not every one is a good fit for complete organics
we are however in a good position to create systems that have the benefits of science without deviating so far form the natural system that we need to augment the living world with the such a great percentage of toxic and caustic chemical solutions
in fact if we were to come up with microbrial "engines" that processed waste organics into raw ions we could use diverse sources for the same composition of macro and micro elements and off load the need for non waste organics by a great percentage
this is why i see compost teas as being so so so intriguing. In essence you are controlling the ionic and microbrial processes in the making of the tea giving you fast and more complete access to provided nutrients
how much amended soil goes to waste under utilized?
i can easily g off on a tangent and would like to avoid it but I think this highlights that some of our traditional fears may be immature
R
RNDZL
his organic technique and his garden (jiggywhompus) outproduces 90% of the hydro here
hes an indoor tom hill (minus the breeding)and has spent more time with me teaching me about organics through his observational experience than all the previous support ive received in the past combined and squared
and while I myself have nothing but respect for your grow and technique, i myself would not try to compare myself to him, at least apples to apples, unless i was able to pull in a COMPLETELY organic garden, 2 LBS + per 1000 NO CO2 OF PRE 98 Bubba, in soil repeatedly
At this time I would also like to give great thanks to Dr Long bottom
he shared with me his hybrid organic hydro tech which is what got me motivated to blend the tech in the first place.
He also gave me a starting point that was very easy to transition in without feeling like I was going to lose control of the garden
I think different philosophies here have different goals (please correct me if I misinterpret.)
Organic fans are seeking to create sustainable, natural growth closely mimicing the natural soils outdoors in order to preserve, or at least not damage the environment. They want to feel good about smoking their product and want to feel like they are making the Earth a better place.
Salt fans are seeking to create a more evolved nutrient regimen and indoor grow, in order to surpass mother nature's abilities and to get every last percentage point out of the indoor environment in terms of efficiency and conservation of resources.
It cannot be proven that organic weed is any better for you than weed grown with salt ferts, as was posted earlier, organic ferts often contain unhealthy amounts of heavy metals that are not allowed in salt ferts. That single fact is enough to make me rather wary of organic weed.
I believe that its possible to do the same, or even less harm to the environment using salt ferts. Our ferts are more pure and applied in lower doses. In greenhouses, salt ferts outyield organics, produce foods free of heavy metals, use substantially less water, and make much more efficient use of space. I think I've posted enough research data that illustrates those points as facts.
So my question is, what is better about organics? If it's not better for you, or the environment, who is it better for?
Organic fans are seeking to create sustainable, natural growth closely mimicing the natural soils outdoors in order to preserve, or at least not damage the environment. They want to feel good about smoking their product and want to feel like they are making the Earth a better place.
Salt fans are seeking to create a more evolved nutrient regimen and indoor grow, in order to surpass mother nature's abilities and to get every last percentage point out of the indoor environment in terms of efficiency and conservation of resources.
It cannot be proven that organic weed is any better for you than weed grown with salt ferts, as was posted earlier, organic ferts often contain unhealthy amounts of heavy metals that are not allowed in salt ferts. That single fact is enough to make me rather wary of organic weed.
I believe that its possible to do the same, or even less harm to the environment using salt ferts. Our ferts are more pure and applied in lower doses. In greenhouses, salt ferts outyield organics, produce foods free of heavy metals, use substantially less water, and make much more efficient use of space. I think I've posted enough research data that illustrates those points as facts.
So my question is, what is better about organics? If it's not better for you, or the environment, who is it better for?
It's quite alright, but again, citing specific grows as an example of a philosophy tends to be anecdotal at best. For example, I would counter with Dongle69's 6000w coco room, which yielded 14# off 6 lights with no CO2, using chem ferts.
I also believe that for every exceptional organic grower getting outstanding yields, there are ten salt growers doing just as well, or better. For example DoubleD's 42# 11.2KW grow, which is all hydro and salts.
There are certainly a handful of very knowledgeable and talented organic growers, but they are dwarfed in numbers by the hydro/salt guys achieving the same results or better.
It reminds me of my last trip to Tahoe. On the slopes were roughly 100 people. 90 of them were on skis, whipping down the mountain. 10 were on snowboards, and of those 10, 7 were on the ground trying to get back up. Would you not conclude that skiing was statistically superior to snowboarding based on that sampling?
R
RNDZL
see this is the problem or perception
we cannot do better than mother nature
we can replicate bits and pieces, but if it isn't sustainable that is the proof its not worth the extra benefit
but you can get the same or even better yield in a garden fed hydroponic, ionically with the added beneficial microbes that provide so much more than ionic break down of nutes
i would not argue that we need to extrapolate certain facets of nature and redesign them to meet more immediate need
but don't try to justify that your doing better than nature?
nature evolved and will continue without use
you think our ability to manipulate now for the untold cost we pay later makes us better
that is another very faulty perception
and if you got 9.5 from 8k how can you contend you even come close to a 2k per 1000 organic soil grower who runs Bubba Kush
you keep pushing the measure for to qualify success, but when you ain't fucking dropping colas like Health Robinson I think
how can you continue to talk shit about organics
ohh btw before we get this into a big dick dragging contest i had bred my own gear, passed it out with lessons on how to grow and saw it kill 3 lbs per 1000
not a one trick pony or a one pupil student
and its where i have to agree with head that if you are doing a controlled environment hydroponics that anything but macro.micor is a waste
but let me give you a hot synthetic tip
not being a dick, this is experiential
lose your AN
get IONIC by Hydrodynamics international
grow bloom boost .. maybe ..MAYBE a call mag
and tell me what the fuck youv'e been thinking wasting your fucking hard earned dollars in AN
Hydro will be a joy, you will KILL it with yield and it HAS THE BEST ORGANIC MISCIBILITY properties ive seen to date
u will have 1 tenth the issues you do
ive never had any of the fucking problems any of you dudes in water except power (pump) loss and it being so fucking overwhelming aggressive i went back to promix just so i could keep it form growing inches a day and too fast for proper training and fondling
im a lazy fuck i design a my own persy grow around being a lazy fuck
NO DISSING you at all
none of this is disrespect man but you guys gotta understand this whole new generation fo obnoxious put you to teh test with our opinion generation has turned off a vanguard of legendary growers that i cant even look past my shoes in teh same room cause they so fucking good
they wont have anything to do with this vibe
good, so you so sure of your mediocrity, good, money in my pocket then, maybe you'll learn on your own dime, maybe you won't learn at all.
growing plants is the easy part, how growing affects you 20 years down the road when the people you taught start dying and lives come and go
well then maybe you'll see what the fuck im talking about
after a certain point quality may be negligible but yield certainly is not
perfect plant health is about a plant producing maximum biomass at all times
in essence perfectly fed plants grow perfect on their own, WE are the variable that limits their growth, not themselves
this is so much more than tree hugging its about plant worship
you dont get that yet either
these plants live and die for us and I should care less about the satisfaction, that it could indeed not have the same plateau i sense cause I get cause not the optimus prime of the weed universe i fool myself into being
OHH and before you hate me completely
ive done the same shit in 90% of my life with 90% of things, many of us have had and still battle our own ego
However I always humbled myself at the alter of the herb, she has her own wisdom and i cant learn it if all i do is listen to myself
if i sound wise at all its only when i am humble enough to let her do the talking
peace
R
RNDZL
here are some half ass grown first run promix plants fed organic hydro nutes an a lil salts
room with lights no controls no fancy pens no shit cause its was a half ass closet grow
where environmental control was not an opinion
didnt come with instructions, any info, all first run, all fed the same shit cause I dont give a fuck
they do what i want in my sleep its a fucking weed right, now if you remember what you read i don't do water cause when you get to over 2.5 + lbs per light its problematic, its too much fucking work when your getting 2 + ounces per gallon of soil
i can get 6 of those under a 1000 all day long, do fucking magic, crazy bulb tricks, water stunts, Chillers, and all that jazz
one fan one filter and some light some organic nutes a touch of salt
should I post more pics? really wanna have a sword fight?
room with lights no controls no fancy pens no shit cause its was a half ass closet grow
where environmental control was not an opinion
didnt come with instructions, any info, all first run, all fed the same shit cause I dont give a fuck
they do what i want in my sleep its a fucking weed right, now if you remember what you read i don't do water cause when you get to over 2.5 + lbs per light its problematic, its too much fucking work when your getting 2 + ounces per gallon of soil
i can get 6 of those under a 1000 all day long, do fucking magic, crazy bulb tricks, water stunts, Chillers, and all that jazz
one fan one filter and some light some organic nutes a touch of salt
should I post more pics? really wanna have a sword fight?
R
RNDZL
R
RNDZL
I disagree, wholeheartedly. Show me an outdoor grow or even a greenhouse with the following characteristics:
85*F Daytime temp every day
75* Nighttime temp every day
50% RH 24X7
1500PPM CO2
Air filtered to remove odors, bugs, pollen and spores
Rain on demand, just hitting the soil and not the plant please, and filtered to remove the crap it absorbs from the atmosphere.
You can't, because it cannot be done. If I want I can provide a custom spectrum of any type of light, red blue, UV-B, any intensity you want. I can adjust the types of light and lighting schedules in seconds These things cannot be done with sunlight.
Most species of Mycorrhizae cannot withstand a P concentration in excess of 32ppm, and trichodermas usually die around 400PPM. In even an organic grow these numbers are often surpassed. What other benefits do these microbes provide in a plant that is only in that medium for a maximum of 60 days?
Again, we can replicate Pleistocene-era levels of CO2, with very tightly controlled atmospheric conditions that outdoor growers can only dream of. The main reason outdoor plants outyield indoor ones is due to longer veg times (months) coupled with brighter and more well-balanced light. Because it isn't economical to have 10K lumens psf indoors, does not mean it's impossible.
Please explain exactly how I'm damaging the future of this world any more than an organic grower.
I never said I was the best indoor hydro grower, in fact I'm far from it. In that particular grow I was in an uninsulated tin building, with little ability to control temperatures. It was also severely restricted by time, allowing for no more than a 2-week veg, as I had 6 month inspections and broke it all down and set it back up every 6 months. I could probably do better with organics now if I had been doing it for years, but I think ultimately I can outyield organics with salts, and don't plan on flipping back and forth to get there.
Again, because for every organic guru doing it big, there are ten doing it bigger with salts. And again, when applied at large scales, do you see organics outyielding hydro grows for food? No? Then that higher level is what I believe we must strive for. I feel like oroganics is "Settling" for acceptable yields, and rarely pushing the envelope.
That's cool, how many of them did so with organics and how many used salts/hydro? My current grow looks to exceed 2# per light air cooling, with AC and CO2 I'm shooting for 4.
I don't really have any problems with AN, been using it for years with success. But I haven't seen Ionic in stores, got a link? I've got the ability to do side-by-side grows again and wouldn't mind further experiments.
My current grow only has one water pump, only used when I handwater in freshly transplanted cuttings. Everything else is gravity fed drip, no power, timers or pumps.
NO DISSING you at all
Not sure what you mean here, quality may be negligible, but whose yield is not? Every study I could find on organics vs hydro shows hydro outyielding organic by some 400%. Is that not factual?
I think there are plenty of people who love the plant. Mine are babied quite carefully and kept as healthy as I can manage from day 1. Again, we have different philosophies about how to accomplish the same goals.
OHH and before you hate me completely
ive done the same shit in 90% of my life with 90% of things, many of us have had and still battle our own ego
However I always humbled myself at the alter of the herb, she has her own wisdom and i cant learn it if all i do is listen to myself
if i sound wise at all its only when i am humble enough to let her do the talking
I spend roughly ten hours a day, every day on this site, reading, writing, and learning. Accumulating knowledge, and more importantly, forming consensus on important issues. All the knowledge in the world is useless to the guy that can't understand it, or how it relates to his grow. I try to consolidate data into easy to understand terms for the layman, and illustrate how simple a grow can be.
I strive for perfection in my grows as well as my knowledge. Accept the facts, filter out the bullshit, and pass it on to the next guy. We all win! Peace
R
RNDZL
dont need to plants with a full spectrum of microbes adapt to the environment while giving max yield
show me anyone here ANYONE with better trees than TOM HILL
ANYONE
you cant
how does he grow
ORGANIC
thats a fucking checkmate BTW
hahah read above
GOOD THING I NEVER MENTIONED MYCO ONLY BACTERIA
btw we havent identified all myco and the properties it adheres to just as a fyi AND those environmental cues are salt ppm not natural ppm due to mineral deposits
good thing your answers are so tight you cant read what your answering
WTF does this have to do with growing better tops Cash Hobby or Caregiver ??? WTF man
this is the least important component of the argument, its the added benefit of organics but i can explain it
i suggest hybrid methods, less salts
your automation stuff is excellent. im not knocking anything about you being sure about stuff. your not excellent about stuff you dont know but you sure you are and thats what im knocking
we all do it as people, as growers, as husbands, as friends
hardest part of life is learning your not as hot shit as you hoped you are, me neither trust me
come on man
A) yes i see organics outperform synthetic all day long, getting organics to do that is tougher, the big revolution is ACT,aerated compost tea, the microbial portion "BACTERIA"
hybrid organics is not
all those plants are salt.organic hybrid all fed in the water
I for many many many years used the freshest bottle on the shelf not by brand i have used most of AN stuff its good, but in a controlled hydro environment much like head says all things perfect you dont need more than micros and macros to kill it (maybe there are some amino's in the boost, that I do not know)
modern science and the industrial revolution that popularized it are about 100 years old and the agricultural science markets are not where all the brightest minds flock
do not underestimate your own practical experiential experience
i truely in my heart of hearts feel we have all teh data we need to know ore than science does now if we could only share it gracefully
adn thats my critique of you that your sure "they" the modern world has reached the ultimate refinement
i contend it has not
other than that i am impressed by your contributions and teh eagerness you hae to help people
predetermining projeccted success wiht conjecture keeps us all from advancing or id never open my mouth to you
in matters of principle stand liek a rock in matters of taste swim like a fish
t., jefferson
plus jiggy is my hero so I have to get riled ppl ? his wisdom
um really i wrote the above before i read this
and salts alone work great in a controlled environment 100%
and IVE NEVER EVER questioned you in threads where you are expert
but you realize your a salt grower in aorganic think tank thread telling us its futile
i didnt come after you to be a dick, jsut want you to see even though it may have no relativity to your grow world, organic hydro is the future for many if not for you
basically if this was a plain hydro thread - i dont think id be adding any more value than you do probably less cause i do less automation
First of all, you're putting words in my mouth trying to exacerbate the situation, are you that hurt? Or are you just depserate to vilify me because I'm an evil chem grower?
Second, I did no such thing, I asked for stats on his indoor op, as comparing outdoors to indoors is ludicrous. Or did you hallucinate me saying "I am a better grower than Tom Hill!" I am not that guy. As listed in my threads, my best yield thus far has been .72gpw with salts, and about .5gpw with bottled organics in hydro/coco.
He's using a mere 15.625wpsf, that's interesting. I've just dropped from 62.5 to about 25, but it's good to see some numbers on guys pulling weight off minimal light. And in a flat garden no less!
So in order to have a runoff, we'd basically need the same cuts side by side in a grow, one as Tom did and one with coco or RW or something, preferably in the same room. Wouldn't that be fun?
I said it earlier, lots of guys grow better than me, but again, for every 3 better organic growers I see 30 better salt growers. Am I wrong for making that observation, when you can see it here on these very forums? I didn't really want to get into a link war, as specific examples of gardens mean nothing unless they show two systems side by side doing comparisons. Wouldn't you agree?
My point is sort of like the arguments between drag racers, 4cyl FWD cars vs V-8 RWD cars. Sure there are some fast 4 cyl FWD cars, but the cars turning the very fastest laps all have V-8 RWD cars. The V-8 just has more potential and will take you further in the long run.
It's all about the maximum potential of the plant, and I'm not planning on being satisfied with something that doesn't reach 100% potential. From what all the research I can find shows, that potential is not exploited fully with organic nutrients.
If organics yield better in general, and not just in a couple specific grow rooms, why would anyone use anything else?
I don't want to be just a decent grower. I want to grow the most amount of weed possible per watt or per square foot, and chemistry allows more precision feeding than I believe nature can provide. Maybe I'm not experienced enough yet to do just that, YET. But I believe master of salts will outyield a master of organics, and the larger the scale the more evident that becomes.
I know if I wanted to grow peppers, strawberries, tomatoes, or cucumbers on a commercial basis, it would definitely be in hydro as the stated 400% yield increases are more than a little appealing. What would you do?
