-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Whole Octagon dying on me - plz help!
- Thread starter ericsson
- Start date
cannaboy
Member
Hey man, nice 2 cya back.
Well, I might try slightly tilting the system towards the res, so no or less water stays trapped in the base.
About starting the seeds in soil - I guess I could, but I'd have to wash it out of the roots later on (which the plants also don't like very much). The worst thing is that I still didn't figure out what set me off track so bad..
As for coco - sure I can, but I've never dealt with it (hell, I don't even know if it's ok to use in a recirculating system?) and I think that I'd be even more lost with the feeding schedule then I am now..
My thread in the vert section was visited by mr cheese, who ran a very similar system to mine and he filled the whole thing with diced rockwool, which was watered 3 times a day for 5min. If this doesn't work out perhaps I'll give that a try? I really don't know, I'm kinda lost at the moment
Is there no way you can keep a mother plant in soil and clone that plant into rockwool!! for your system...
Thats what I want to do, although one will not be enough
Do you think that having around 15 mother plants I'll manage to get ~100 clones off them every 2,5 months?
Hi Tropik - I know they got nute burned (as I wrote, the EC was 1.9 when I got back 2 them), but the bigger problem was with the pH swings - after only 2 feeding it would go off track, and lock out the plants.
I'm hoping to get them back into the octagon on saturday morning. It looks as if the most probable cause of the pH problems was hydroton - as I mentioned earlier on, it was soaked for 24-36h in tap water left to settle for 36h. Now, after 24h of soaking in RO @ 5.5 pH I still have to keep on adding pH - as it's going over 6.4 (for the first few hours it would even go past 7.5!).
Still don't know how the solve the problem with rockwool staying moist. I'll try to cut off the upper layer (covered with alge) and raise it a little, but I suppose that untill the rootmass doesn't fully develop in the tubes, I'll have to change the feeding schedule. The question is - how much should I extend the times? It was 2min on / 10 min off - I was thinking of trying 2min on / 1 hour off. What do ya think?
Do you think that having around 15 mother plants I'll manage to get ~100 clones off them every 2,5 months?
Hi Tropik - I know they got nute burned (as I wrote, the EC was 1.9 when I got back 2 them), but the bigger problem was with the pH swings - after only 2 feeding it would go off track, and lock out the plants.
I'm hoping to get them back into the octagon on saturday morning. It looks as if the most probable cause of the pH problems was hydroton - as I mentioned earlier on, it was soaked for 24-36h in tap water left to settle for 36h. Now, after 24h of soaking in RO @ 5.5 pH I still have to keep on adding pH - as it's going over 6.4 (for the first few hours it would even go past 7.5!).
Still don't know how the solve the problem with rockwool staying moist. I'll try to cut off the upper layer (covered with alge) and raise it a little, but I suppose that untill the rootmass doesn't fully develop in the tubes, I'll have to change the feeding schedule. The question is - how much should I extend the times? It was 2min on / 10 min off - I was thinking of trying 2min on / 1 hour off. What do ya think?
cannaboy
Member
just turn it on and wait look listen take plants out see if there is water spend hour or so doing this and youll ork it out you will see when it needs shutting off,, do this a few times and work out the MEAN time that suits a morning noon and night like feed at 4pm lights on and at 7pm and at 10 and at 1 and at 4am probably only 1 /2 mins is all it needs but try to put a pump recirculateing the nutrients in the rez as it sits for a while,,, also you could ph a bucket of water of 1/2 strength feed to flush the system 1 time a week....
plants generally take a feed every 4 mins...
plants generally take a feed every 4 mins...
A up,
I can't seem to get my hydroton balanced.. it's been in pH (5.5) RO water for over 4days now, I have to keep adding pH - to the water (going as low as 3.0!!) and after 24-36h it's back up to ~6.5. Doesn't look like any more soaking will help. Now, my question is - is this ok?? It's not going over 7.5 any more, but it's also not staying around 5.5..
What do U think??
E.
I can't seem to get my hydroton balanced.. it's been in pH (5.5) RO water for over 4days now, I have to keep adding pH - to the water (going as low as 3.0!!) and after 24-36h it's back up to ~6.5. Doesn't look like any more soaking will help. Now, my question is - is this ok?? It's not going over 7.5 any more, but it's also not staying around 5.5..
What do U think??
E.
TexasToker
Member
Did you wash it with a bleach solutions? ~10% .
That will kill any remaining bacteria that could be responsible for your pH swings. I have never seen hydroton mess with pH that much.
That will kill any remaining bacteria that could be responsible for your pH swings. I have never seen hydroton mess with pH that much.
p0opstlnksal0t
Active member
it sounds like you still have some problems... on another note i wanted to build a setup very similar to yours so ill be sticking around to see how things sort out. sorry to hear they are off to a rough start. what are you using to lower ph back down? something is off with your water, do you have a hardness tester? it should not be swinging so fast... this is just strictly fresh water no nutes right now right? try a nitrate & nitrite tests you can pick up a fish store or petco... i think you can even bring in a water sample to petco and they will test these + ammonia for free.
also in my experience with aquariums, dissolved CO2 is acidic, and as algae removes it from the water during photosynthesis, PH will rise rapidly, especially if its warmer water.
No bleaching, but as I mentioned - the first two days of soaking it would keep going over 7.5 up to 7.8. I kept adding pH - (bringing the water as low as 3.5!) and after a couple of days of adding pH - it would finally stay at around 6.3-6.4.
The plants got back into the system yesterday evening, today in the morning the pH was @6.9. I changed out the res (lots of hydroton dust even though it was soaked for 5 days and rinced out), put in fresh RO + 1tbsp/gal of H202 @ and after 30min's balanced it at 5.5. I aslo changed the watering schedule to 2min on / 4h off. After the first feeding cycle the pH was 5.7, so it's still going up (not over 7.0 after the first cycle, but still going up..). My res is 20 gal, I currently filled it with 11 gal's of water. I'll check the pH later on in the evening If it's past 6 again (and I have a feeling it will be), I'm fucked - don't have any more ideas what to do.
Hello pstInksal0t!
For pH lowering I'm using Hesi pH - for the grow stage. Nothing should be wrong with my water, as it's from a brand new RO set, showing 0.0 EC. And yes, I'm using plain RO water atm with 1 tblsp per galon of H202.
Shit is close to the end atm, and I'm close the the edge.
p0opstlnksal0t
Active member
instead of constantly adding ph down, use new water... your res is so small that it takes no time for nitrates and nitrites to build up swing ph in no time. not like a large 55 gallon res. now that you are flushing with fresh water, keep the ro running and filling up buckets and constantly flushing the water out. there must be something in your system thats doing it. like i said, try taking a water sample into petco and let them test for ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. either the problem is the growing media, the plants themselves or the algae. either way, you need to get to the bottom of this before your next grow. take car bro, hope it gets sorted out soon
Can't use only new water, as the one coming from my RO system is around pH 6.5, so I have to bring it down anyway. Is it possible for nitrates and nitrites to appear in RO water? As for my res, it would be difficult to fit a bigger one in my current setup, but what I can do is fully fill it (it's just over half way now). I don't have any thing like petco around where I'm from, so sampling the water isn't possible. About the alge - could that small layer growing on the top have such an affect on the water pH??
I'll try changin the res out a few more times, if that doesn't help - well, they'll be dead by then and right now I am fearing the worst.
If it happens - what would you suggest for a next run?? A rockwool filled system like mr cheese did, or try coco (never dealt with it, don't know nothing about it, except that a majority find it to work very well). I'm on my way to check out the res right now, I'll post later on.
E.
p0opstlnksal0t
Active member
prolly the reason it swings so fast is that 1. the res is only holding like 18 gallons... thats not alot of cushion for when shit gets out of hand. the more water, the slower shit happens. 2 the ph is high out of ro... i dont know why its not neutral but coming straight out at 6.5 then lowering it with ph down shit takes away buffering abilities. have you checked out the "BigTokes ~ Basic Water Chemistry!!" thread! this is a must read in its entirety! check this out as more than likely there are faults in the way you are implementing your watering and nutes.
p0opstlnksal0t
Active member
here is some useful stuff straight from BigTokes keyboard! this is the stuff we learned in chemistry and biology that no one paid attention to! lolz
pH
pH as we know by now refers to the water being either an acid, base, or alkaline base, with neither (neutral). A pH of 7 is said to be neutral, or another word you might want to know is (equilibrium) that means when there is nothing present or influencing your water to go one way or the other, that’s known as (neutral) or at (equilibrium). A pH of 5.5 is 10 times more acidic than water at a pH of 6.5. Thus, changing the pH by a small amount (suddenly) is more of a chemical change than you might think (and more stressful for your plants!!) than might first appear.
Two aspects of pH are important. First, rapid changes in pH are stressful to plants and should be avoided. Changing the pH by more than .5 units per day is known to stress plants. Thus, you want the pH of your Bio-Systems reservoir to remain constant and stable over the long haul. Second, plants have adapted themselves over time to like a sustain pH rage between (5.5 – 7.0). your job as a grower is to do your best to keep it in-between those numbers for best results.
Most plants can adjust to a pH somewhat outside of their optimal range. If your water's pH is naturally within the range of 6.5 to 7.5, you will be able to grow strain of mj without any problems. If your pH lies within this range, there is probably no need to adjust it upward or downward.
Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)
Buffering capacity refers to your systems water's ability to keep the pH stable as nutrients or additives are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; if the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up in your system water/nutrient, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.
Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). I feel I need interject some here, remember those little things I talk about all the time you know (Beneficial Bacterium) they are responsible for accelerating nitrogen cycle and producing nitric acid that is (nitrate), right about now there’s another one of those little lights going off in a growers mind. Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing), is this all ringing any bell’s or what!! On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your plants, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.
The water that I recommend to use the most in the Bio-Bucket System is simply tap-water, most tap-water has a buffering capacity that is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).
How much buffering does your Bio-System need? The larger the (KH), the more resistant to pH changes your water will be. A Bio-Systems water (KH) should be high enough to prevent large pH swings in your Bio-System over time. If your (KH) is below roughly 5.0, you should pay special attention to your tank's pH (test daily, until you get a feel for how stable the pH is). This is ESPECIALLY important if you neglect to do frequent partial water changes or go long term use such as in the Bio-Buckets. In particular, the nitrogen cycle creates a tendency for an established systems pH to decrease over time. The exact amount of pH change depends on the quantity and rate of nitrates produced, as well as the (KH). If your pH drops more than roughly two tenths of a point over a day or two, you should consider increasing the (KH) or performing partial water changes more frequently. (KH) doesn't affect the plants directly, so there’s no need in immediate action but I would keep an eye on it.
It Should Be Noted, So Pay Close Attention: BigToke does not recommend any kind of softening water methods, it is not a good idea to even use distilled water in your Bio-System. By definition, distilled water has essentially no (KH). That means that adding even a little bit of acid will change the pH significantly (stressing plants). Because of its instability, distilled (or any essentially other soft-water processing methods) is never used directly. Tap water or other salts must first be added to it in order to increase its (GH) and (KH).
General Hardness (GH)
General hardness (GH) refers to the dissolved concentration of magnesium and calcium ions. When it is said that some plants prefer ``soft'' or ``hard'' water, it is (GH) (not KH) that is being referred to.
It Should Be Note: That (GH), (KH) and (pH) Although as different as they are all three properties are distinct, they all interact with each other to varying degrees, making it difficult to adjust one without impacting the other. That is just one reasons why that BigToke recommends that beginner hydro-newbie’s are advised NOT to tamper with these parameters unless absolutely necessary, or under the direct supervision of a mentor or a very experienced grower who understands the basic properties of water chemistry. As an example, ``hard'' water frequently often comes from limestone aquifers. Limestone contains calcium carbonate, which when dissolved in water increases both the (GH) (from calcium) and (KH) (from carbonate) components. Increasing the (KH) component also usually increases pH as well. Conceptually, the (KH) acts as a ``sponge'' absorbing the acid present in the water, raising the water's (pH).
Water hardness follows the following guidelines. The unit (dH) means ``degree hardness'', while (ppm) means ``parts per million'', which is roughly equivalent to mg/L in water. 1 unit dH equals 17.8 ppm.
General Hardness
0 - 4 dH, 0 - 70 ppm : very soft
4 - 8 dH, 70 - 140 ppm : soft
8 - 12 dH, 140 - 210 ppm : medium hard
12 - 18 dH, 210 - 320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard
higher : liquid rock (Lake Malawi and Los Angeles, CA)
Salinity
Did you folks know that by measuring the salinity of your hydroponics systems you can get the total amount of dissolved substances. Salinity measurements count both (GH) and (KH) components as well as such other substances as sodium. Salinity is usually expressed in terms of its specific gravity, the ratio of a solution's weight to weight of an equal volume. One component of salinity that neither GH or KH includes is sodium. Is knowing your Bio-Systems water's salinity very important in nutrient management and long term use? Is knowing (pH), (GH) and (KH) suffices important to any hydro-grower? I will discuss this at a latter time but for now I made up something for you, this is a basic 3D representation of what I am trying to say, once you understand the makeup of basic water chemistry you will have a better understanding of what’s happening in your system.
Nutrients and Trace Elements
In addition to (GH), (KH), (pH) and salinity, there are a few other substances you may want to know about. Most tap water contains an assortment of nutrients and trace elements in very low concentrations. The presence (or absence) of trace elements can be important in some situations, specifically:
- nitrates, which are in direct conjunction with the NITROGEN CYCLE
- phosphates, the second most prominent nutrient. Phosphates have been linked to algae growth. If you have persistent algae problems, high phosphates may be a contributing factor, let me say something here, I do not believe that the lucas formula for the Bio-Buckets use it at your own risk. To control algae, only if not using the Bio-Bucket System, frequent partial water changes are often recommended to reduce nutrient levels. If growing in a Bio-Bucket System that I have laid out, there will be no problems for you because the Beneficial Bacterium will control all algae.
Thx PstInksal0t,
I've "looked into" the thread before, but never really gone through the whole thing.
The lockout continues, athough now the pH isn't going higher then 7.0 in 24h (up to 7.8 before I took the system apart). I'm starting to thing there's somthing really fucked up with the hydroton they sell in my country, because even after 5 days of laying in water, which was pH'ed almost every day (sometimes bringing it as low as 4.0!) it would get back to 6.4 in 24h and stay there.. so it's just impossible to set it at 5.5
After reading what you copied from BigTokes thread I did an experiment with my water. I changed out the res using RO and added just over 2 gal of tap water (left to settle for 24h). The only change I noticed was the it took much more pH- to bring the pH down, other then that nothing changed and pH is still swinging as it was. If the way I'm implementing my watering and nutes was to blame, how come the pH actually did drop by 0.8 after soakign the hydroton? I ran out of ideas by now and I think I'll switch the lights off this week, as there's no sense in wasting electricity, nutes and water.
I really still haven't got a clue whats responsible for the death of my plants, I'm thinking of trying rockwool in the next run, but I don't want to get it going before I figure out what the fuck happened here. Any more ideas, anyone?
Ps. I've checked that when I fill my res nearly fully, it holds 16 UK gallons. It's not alot, but I don't think the res size could be the cause for such big pH swing is such a short period of time.
I've "looked into" the thread before, but never really gone through the whole thing.
The lockout continues, athough now the pH isn't going higher then 7.0 in 24h (up to 7.8 before I took the system apart). I'm starting to thing there's somthing really fucked up with the hydroton they sell in my country, because even after 5 days of laying in water, which was pH'ed almost every day (sometimes bringing it as low as 4.0!) it would get back to 6.4 in 24h and stay there.. so it's just impossible to set it at 5.5
After reading what you copied from BigTokes thread I did an experiment with my water. I changed out the res using RO and added just over 2 gal of tap water (left to settle for 24h). The only change I noticed was the it took much more pH- to bring the pH down, other then that nothing changed and pH is still swinging as it was. If the way I'm implementing my watering and nutes was to blame, how come the pH actually did drop by 0.8 after soakign the hydroton? I ran out of ideas by now and I think I'll switch the lights off this week, as there's no sense in wasting electricity, nutes and water.
I really still haven't got a clue whats responsible for the death of my plants, I'm thinking of trying rockwool in the next run, but I don't want to get it going before I figure out what the fuck happened here. Any more ideas, anyone?
Ps. I've checked that when I fill my res nearly fully, it holds 16 UK gallons. It's not alot, but I don't think the res size could be the cause for such big pH swing is such a short period of time.
Diamond Dave
New member
