Hybrid Vigor?

[chef]

I made a qwik post in the Generic Drift thread, to hopefully tap some of the experience & knowledge posting there for this subject

The topic of Generic Drift & the method of taking healthy Apical cuts of healthy Apical cuts, to promote what I've always called "promoting positive generic drift" just organically led me to this subject.
"Hybrid Vigor" since it's what I'm concentrating & relying on before & after the Apical cut routine to 3rd, preferably 5th gen.

If all has gone to plan?
I have a pumped up crazy vigorous MILF!
Otherwise, it's cull time with a rare exception for a Headstash keeper

It's HUGE on my list, can't really decide on where to place it among Aroma, Taste, Effect & Vigor/Yield? (which are usually connected)
I'd have a real hard time listing those #1-5? Am I after a Cup winner or Beaster I guess?

Love to hear any & all input on the subject from others!
I'm really interested in the science behind Hybrid Vigor now, along the lines of the Generic Drift discussion.
Have they discovered the keys/switches that invoke Hybrid Vigor etc?

cheers

 

[Pinal]

The increase in the level of production traits due to crossing is called hybrid vigour.It points at the vigour,which is a real factor that can bee seen by the naked eye,in comparison to pure breeding.

 

[Honkytonk]

Hybrid Vigor a.k.a. Heterosis

Hybrid Vigor a.k.a. Heterosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

Heterosis is a term used in genetics and selective breeding. The term heterosis, also known as hybrid vigor or outbreeding enhancement, describes the increased strength of different characteristics in hybrids; the possibility to obtain a genetically superior individual by combining the virtues of its parents.

Genetic basis of heterosis
Two competing hypotheses, not necessarily mutually exclusive, have been developed to explain hybrid vigor. The dominance hypothesis attributes the superiority of hybrids to the suppression of undesirable (deleterious) recessive alleles from one parent by dominant alleles from the other. It attributes the poor performance of inbred strains to the loss of genetic diversity, with the strains becoming purely homozygous deleterious alleles at many loci. The overdominance hypothesis states that some combinations of alleles (which can be obtained by crossing two inbred strains) are especially advantageous when paired in a heterozygous individual. The concept of heterozygote advantage/overdominance is not restricted to hybrid lineages. This hypothesis is commonly invoked to explain the persistence of many alleles which are harmful in homozygotes; in normal circumstances such harmful alleles would be removed from a population through the process of natural selection. Like the dominance hypotheses, it attributes the poor performance of inbred strains to a high percentage of these harmful recessives.

Btw. there is no 'positive genetic drift' involved in cloning. Taking healthy clones will give you healthy plants that are genetic copies. That's it.
The genetic structure of organisms does not change by cloning. You would have to add mutation promoting factors like radiation, certain chemicals, etc. to make the genome of clones 'drift'.
So, no, the non-existent 'positive genetic drift' of clones has nothing to do with hybrid vigor of sexually propagated plants.

 

[englishrick]

this dude im quoting here is frigin amazing,,,,i hope this quote sheds a lil light hybrid vigor for you

The mutant factor comes from DJ never outcrossing his work and using too many already inbred 1:1 matings. If for several generations you cross all your already half sib plants to a single male, big surprise, you get a seedlot that lacks vigor and has accumulated deleterious recessive genes. Combine that with sample sizes of less than 50 plants and you're ganna run into problems. It's pretty hard to properly maintain germplasm when your breeding in a trailer park. He never put colchicine on his seeds. Don't believe the hype, but if you don't believe what I say feel free to pm and ask him.

 

[Johnny 5 Cats]

Have they discovered the keys/switches that invoke Hybrid Vigor etc?

cheers

Here's an abstract that explains a little about the likely mechanism

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/49/324/1063

Edit: You can get the full article free from that link.

 

[DocLeaf]

"Vigor" can be reduced by pathogens, diseases and viruses ,, which can be introduced to mother plants and offspring during the process of cloning.

This is one reason it is advised to use sterile cutting tools when cloning.

Hope this helps

 

[Johnny 5 Cats]

"Vigor" can be reduced by pathogens, diseases and viruses ,, which can be introduced to mother plants and offspring during the process of cloning.

This is one reason it is advised to use sterile cutting tools when cloning.

Hope this helps

You're quite right Doc, and good advice. But I think what he's asking about is hybrid vigour, as in the benefits of having a greater genetic variety.

 

[DocLeaf]

hybridization is where the "vigor" comes from. inbred lines are less vigorous overall.

The patterns that F1 hybrids give in lineage,, only show "mutations" if the parents carried them.

 

[cannaboy]

The hybrid vigour or hetrosis is apparent when 2 geneticaly diverse homogenus varietys with different matching alles at each loci are crossed,, thus a true hybrid is born..

 

[whodair]

i like crossing a tropical thin leaf plant to an extremely afghan indica type, and seeing some real vigor in the hybrid offspring !!

 

[danishpassion]

"Vigor" can be reduced by pathogens, diseases and viruses ,, which can be introduced to mother plants and offspring during the process of cloning.

This is one reason it is advised to use sterile cutting tools when cloning.

Hope this helps

good point and important thing to point out that is often overlooked

 

[danishpassion]

Sorry Doc i cant give you any rep for that post as it seems in still in some kinda limited trial process
any one knows how many posts or what ill have to do to become a full registered member in here?

 

[DocLeaf]

50.

chef. any 'positive' genetic drift (whatever that is) is totally subjective!

what drifts for one may sail or sink for the other,, depending on environmental factors,, which alter the 'phenotype' and patterns of growth.

Old saying,, 'What's good for the goose,, isn't always good for the gander'.

Hope this helps

 

[danishpassion]

tnx for that Doc
i see then im getting close to being a real and unlimited member now

 

[Johnny 5 Cats]

The patterns that F1 hybrids give in lineage,, only show "mutations" if the parents carried them.

I'm sorry mate but what do you mean? The patterns that F1 hybrids give in liniage? weird choice of words there fella. Only show "mutations" if the parents carried them?? What is this supposed to mean? Are you trying to explain that F1 hybrids will only show "mutations" (do you mean recessive traits?) if both parents have them?

what drifts for one may sail or sink for the other

'What's good for the goose,, isn't always good for the gander'

With pearls of wisdom like that to share I can't wait to hear more.

Hybrid vigour is a game of two halves

perhaps?


Thanks for the two red dots my bredrin. I see Jah RastaFarRight has a zero tolerance policy on being teased about patois, or even private criticism of his weaker posts.

 

[DocLeaf]

Hybrid vigor is the result of marriage between two stable parents from separate 'species'. The parent species are inbred to the point that they lack lust or hormonal / metabolic energy. Once out-bred to another species however then "vigor" occurs as each inbred parent finds a new lease of energy in their offspring.

Mendel (the geneticist) hybridized Bees after the peas,, so vigorous (violent) were the off-spring,, that he order the whole colony to be destroyed.

The patterns that F1 hybrids give in liniage? weird choice of words there fella. Only show "mutations" if the parents carried them?? What is this supposed to mean? Are you trying to explain that F1 hybrids will only show "mutations" (do you mean recessive traits?) if both parents have them?

No. You are confused.

Parental traits in F1 seed stock are observable and give visible patterns in growth when sown in numbers.

e.g. 25% small, 50% medium, 25% tall

We know this because when growing hybrids the rows of lamps needed be set at different heights... and the flowering and harvesting times were staggered.

Although heterogeneous,, F1 Hybrids still only carry the traits of their parents, and grandparents... like any plant. If a mutated trait is present, then a % of the mutation will be passed on into the next generation... be it dominant or recessive.

Hope this helps

 

[englishrick]

accumulated deleterious recessive genes are a big issue that canot be overlooked!!,,,

 

[Johnny 5 Cats]

Hybrid vigor is the result of marriage between two stable parents from separate 'species'.

They are not separate species fella. Species is defined by the ability of two organisms to interbreed and produce fertile offspring of both genders.

The parent species are inbred to the point that they lack lust or hormonal / metabolic energy. Once out-bred to another species however then "vigor" occurs as each inbred parent finds a new lease of energy in their offspring.

Jeez, the bold highlights all the nonsense in that paragraph.

No. You are confused.

Only by your use of language. I'm quite clear on the biology.

Parental traits in F1 seed stock are observable and give visible patterns in growth when sown in numbers.

e.g. 25% small, 50% medium, 25% tall

We know this because when growing hybrids the rows of lamps needed be set at different heights... and the flowering and harvesting times were staggered.

Although heterogeneous,, F1 Hybrids still only carry the traits of their parents, and grandparents... like any plant. If a mutated trait is present, then a % of the mutation will be passed on into the next generation... be it dominant or recessive.

So you've expanded on "The patterns that F1 hybrids give in lineage,, only show "mutations" if the parents carried them." and clarified that you didn't mean that heterozygous individuals will only show "mutations" (whatever you mean by that) if both parents had them. Had this been what you were saying it would have been relevant to the topic of Hybrid vigour. But all you seem to be saying is, 'plants pass on their genes'. Well sure.


Honkytonk posted up a nice simple definition of Hybrid vigour (heterosis) to lay out the terms and I've posted up a link to a paper that outlines the biochemical mechanism by which heterosis results in increased (and sometimes subtractive) vigour. Lets try to move forward on the biology and science.

Please for the sake of everyone who reads your posts (and people listen to you because you're a 'Mentor') be more clear with your terms. Misuse of the terms, Species, Mutation, Homogenous, only confuse.

 

[DocLeaf]

i've helped you as much as i'm gonna