intermatic which one?

[Bigtrees]

Ok I have a question i have 4 electronic 120v 1000w ballasts and am about to make a dedicated timer board room is inside where main box is so it will be from a dedicated breaker and about 2 ft of wiring only.

So the question is i see intermatic t101 and t104? i know one is for 120v double throw breakers but that one only has 2 lines ans opposed to the t104 which has 4 lines, know i was going to cut my ballast plugs and hard wire them will this be the best way of doing it with one of these timers? need some advice thanks, right now its a mess of cords and what not need something dedicated.

 

[intotheunknown]

what pharma said...

 

[PharmaCan]

4000 watts @120v = 33.33 amps.

For continuous usage you should not exceed 80% of the rating for the breaker, wires, etc.

33.33 amps / .80 = 41.67 amps minimum amps of circuit breaker. Since they don't make 42 amp breakers, you'd have to go to 50 amps on one circuit and that's just getting out of hand.

Will your ballasts work on 240v? If they will, it'd make things a little simpler to use 240v - and you can still do what you want the way you want to do it. Regardless, you are going to have to switch two hot leads so you want the t-104 timer.

There is not enough room in the timer box to make the number of connections that you want to make, so you have to make them outside the timer box. Run your power into the timer, then run two hots, one neutral and one ground into a junction box. (If you are going with 240v, and only running the lights, you can skip the neutral - you don't need it.) The junction box should be a 4x4 handi-box or something similar... depends on if you want to put the cover on with a mud-ring or not. Anyhoo, take your wires from the timer to a junction box and bring your cords into the j/b and make your connections there.

Edit: If you go with 120v, you may need two neutrals - depends on how you hook things up.

PC

 

[PharmaCan]

what pharma said...

LOL - Actually, you're right about the cord ends. I tend to answer people's question instead of trying to change their mind, but, really, it would be just as easy to wire receptacles and save his cords - and it'll work with 120v or 240v.

BTW - the T-104 is 40 amps per connector, and there are two connectors. By the time he splits his load over two wires, that'll only be about 17 amps per wire/connector. He'll have to use #10 wire into and out of the timer, so he'll have a very safe system that's overated as far as usage to capacity goes.

PC

 

[intotheunknown]

lol at least i was right about one thing...
yeah i have a g&e indoor timer, which does not have two connections, so i was going off of what mine was like. but it is good to know they do have two connections, may someday have to invest in one.

 

[Bigtrees]

Thanks for the replies, we just went ahead and am going to use the digital ones we have been using and bought 4 recepticles and boxes like 20 ft of 14gauge and wiring then to main box. we might go mechanical timers one day but for now.

 

[tokinafaty420]

That is how I did it bigtrees. Although I built a seperate subpanel w/ timers and receptacles on a seperate board. All I have to do is attach my 240v 60amp circuit breaker into whatever main panel I am working with and I'm golden.

 

[grow nerd]

i would see if those ballasts can be rewired / run at 240v and get a 30a contactor/relay + digital timer for about the same price. you can run 120v off DPST relays, too, just switch two hot legs from two 120v circuits (same 30a contactor is fine)

 

[PharmaCan]

you can run 120v off DPST relays, too, just switch two hot legs from two 120v circuits (same 30a contactor is fine)

I've always wondered if this is kosher for ballasts. Obviously it will turn the ballast off, but some appliances want both legs switched. Do you know for a fact what the preference is for ballasts or do you just know that this works?

I'm not trying to argue with you, just wondering if you know the answer 'cause I'd like to know. I'd write and ask a manufacturer but for sure if I wrote and asked about switching legs, some moron in India would write me back telling me that the foot pads are interchangeable.

PC

 

[Bigtrees]

20 amp attached breakers

20 amp attached breakers

Ok another question, we did 2 recepticles only sofar on the same breaker we used the top 15 amp grey and then theres two red 20 amp breakers with a pole and bellow the other 15 amp grey. now we used the 2 greys and I was wondering if it would be ok to wire up the other 2 recepticles on the 2 open red 20 with pole is does that denote its 240v?

on the breaker is says 15----20----20----15

15 i assume are the 120 cause for the 20---20 ones it says 120/240.
i know thats a higher amps than gauge but its just always only going to run one ballast in 14/3 wire.

also so the main breaker to the panel is 100 amp service if i where to overdraw amps the main breaker will trip correct?

we have 6 flower lights and 1 veg 24/7

and plan to add a 15 000 btu window ac in a frame extending to livingroom from flower to cool the 4 and a small 6 500 to 8500 to cool the other 2kw flower. so thats a full 100 amps not accounting fans etc what to do... we might have to downsize?... so 90 to 95 amps with lights ac fans etc is that too much for the place? like lines running hot?

the reason i have 120 is because i started small expanding with 120's now i wish i just bought everything 240 lol owell.

 

[PharmaCan]

Ok another question, we did 2 recepticles only sofar on the same breaker we used the top 15 amp grey and then theres two red 20 amp breakers with a pole and bellow the other 15 amp grey. now we used the 2 greys and I was wondering if it would be ok to wire up the other 2 recepticles on the 2 open red 20 with pole is does that denote its 240v?

on the breaker is says 15----20----20----15

15 i assume are the 120 cause for the 20---20 ones it says 120/240.
i know thats a higher amps than gauge but its just always only going to run one ballast in 14/3 wire.

also so the main breaker to the panel is 100 amp service if i where to overdraw amps the main breaker will trip correct?

we have 6 flower lights and 1 veg 24/7

and plan to add a 15 000 btu window ac in a frame extending to livingroom from flower to cool the 4 and a small 6 500 to 8500 to cool the other 2kw flower. so thats a full 100 amps not accounting fans etc what to do... we might have to downsize?... so 90 to 95 amps with lights ac fans etc is that too much for the place? like lines running hot?

the reason i have 120 is because i started small expanding with 120's now i wish i just bought everything 240 lol owell.

Where to start...

Your main (sub?) panel is 100 amps. You don't want to exceed 80% of that for continuous usage. So that gives you 80 amps to work with and that includes everything in the house. (Everything that's on that panel anyway.)

I think your math on the amps might be off somewhere. 6kw in lights @ 120v pulls 50 amps. How much does the a/c pull? Regardless, you are up close to the limit. It sounds like you have two grow areas. If that's the case, you can run one room, for example, noon to midnight and the other midnight to noon. Shifting the load like that would give you more room to work, amp wise.

DO NOT hook that 14 Gauge wire up to a 20 amp breaker. Regardless of whatever good intentions you might have, it just isn't safe and would put you in contention for a Darwin Award because that is how fires are started.

A 15,000btu window a/c will most likely run on 240v so you'll need that 240v breaker for your a/c. Anyway, you might want to re-think your cooling plans, maybe look at mini-splits or something.

You should check the literature on your ballasts. Many of them can run on 102v or 240v. It doesn't make much difference in this case, because you're bumping your head on an upper limit. But it's always good to know.

You should really consider splitting your grow into two equal halves, if you can. Then you'd only have 1/2 on during any twelve hour period. It's the a/c that's really killing you, so if you could cut that way down as far as simultaneous usage goes, you'd be a lot better off.

A few thoughts for you to toss around...

PC

 

[dtfsux]

I am alittle confused about some of the items you are posting so I am going to defer to PharmaCan on most of that.

Some things I can suggest on. use outlets, dont hardwire ballasts to anything. It sucks when a bulb blows, or you need to shut down a ballast for any reason, and they are all hard wired.

Obviously this is a commercial/med grow. Get some magnetic ballasts. You can get 1000W kits from HTG for $105, and 10 minutes of wiring. If you are running out of electrical capacity, switching to 240 is going to help. A few hundred dollars in new ballasts will have a big return on investment. Think about it, do the math, see if it works.

You upgrade to digis later, ebay/craigslist all the old equipment. people will buy it, trust me.

Surprised noone caught on to that 14/2 20amp breaker comment earlier. Dont do it. The wire can burn up before the breaker will trip.

PC's idea about flip flopping is good too.

 

[StinkyFgrs]

Hey everyone,sorry if I'm highjacking this thred,but my quest is kinda on topic.If you are running a 40 amp timer box(240)but it runs the ballasts @120,do you calc.amp draw as if they were running 240.ie 1000w sodium draw-4.75amps?Thanks.

 

[_Dude]

4000 watts @120v = 33.33 amps.

Are you sure about this? I have an Intermatic T101 (40 amps right?) and I've been kicking myself because I thought I could only run 2 1ks on it and I want to add 2 more soon.

Are you saying I can run 4 1Ks on that bad boy? (all my stuff is 120v).

But then there's the question of running only 2 lights at a time. Can the power company tell if I'm running 4kw at a time for 12 hours a day with an old school power meter? That's the only reason I'd worry about running them all at once.

 

[grow nerd]

I've always wondered if this is kosher for ballasts. Obviously it will turn the ballast off, but some appliances want both legs switched. Do you know for a fact what the preference is for ballasts or do you just know that this works?

I'm not trying to argue with you, just wondering if you know the answer 'cause I'd like to know. I'd write and ask a manufacturer but for sure if I wrote and asked about switching legs, some moron in India would write me back telling me that the foot pads are interchangeable.

Yes it will work for sure. Not sure whether the appliance in question (in this case a ballast) wants it switched, but in most cases for 120v devices it won't matter anyways because most 120v switches (including the wall type) are single pole only and the neutral never gets cut off. Another type of switch might be on a power strip if you so choose to use one, it's a single pole switch (unless you have some special stuff). Yet another might be an SPST mechanical "120v" timer that switches only the hot leg instead of hot + neutral.

In conclusion, without a lot of knowledge on the matter, I would think that any 120v appliances/devices that would truly want both legs switched off would incorporate a double pole switch onboard the appliance/device.

And in short, I'd say it's perfectly fine. With fine prints on running the neutral together and not separated from the hot, or something. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit more on this, all I know is that you do not want to separate the neutral far away from the hot in a run for some electrical reason.

Thoughts, opinions?

 

[grow nerd]

A slight off-topic, regarding neutrals: do digital ballasts cause "Harmonics", i.e., will an over-sized neutral ever realistically be a consideration on a 1-phase 240v service?

 

[PharmaCan]

Are you sure about this? I have an Intermatic T101 (40 amps right?) and I've been kicking myself because I thought I could only run 2 1ks on it and I want to add 2 more soon.

Are you saying I can run 4 1Ks on that bad boy? (all my stuff is 120v).

But then there's the question of running only 2 lights at a time. Can the power company tell if I'm running 4kw at a time for 12 hours a day with an old school power meter? That's the only reason I'd worry about running them all at once.

I don't know what the rating is for the T-101, but, yes, I'm sure about my math and the formula. However, you shouldn't exceed 80% of the device rating for continuous use and 80% x 40 amps = 32amps so your still screwed.

Yes it will work for sure. Not sure whether the appliance in question (in this case a ballast) wants it switched, but in most cases for 120v devices it won't matter anyways because most 120v switches (including the wall type) are single pole only and the neutral never gets cut off. Another type of switch might be on a power strip if you so choose to use one, it's a single pole switch (unless you have some special stuff). Yet another might be an SPST mechanical "120v" timer that switches only the hot leg instead of hot + neutral.

In conclusion, without a lot of knowledge on the matter, I would think that any 120v appliances/devices that would truly want both legs switched off would incorporate a double pole switch onboard the appliance/device.

And in short, I'd say it's perfectly fine. With fine prints on running the neutral together and not separated from the hot, or something. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit more on this, all I know is that you do not want to separate the neutral far away from the hot in a run for some electrical reason.

Thoughts, opinions?

This is all fine and good but I was talking about switching only one leg on 240v. Anyway, never mind because this is over your head. (No offense intended; it just is.)

A slight off-topic, regarding neutrals: do digital ballasts cause "Harmonics", i.e., will an over-sized neutral ever realistically be a consideration on a 1-phase 240v service?

I suppose you might be able to make 240v single phase electricity, but you won't find it commercially available nor will you find anything that will run on it.

240v is two phase and doesn't use a neutral.

Hey everyone,sorry if I'm highjacking this thred,but my quest is kinda on topic.If you are running a 40 amp timer box(240)but it runs the ballasts @120,do you calc.amp draw as if they were running 240.ie 1000w sodium draw-4.75amps?Thanks.

The timer is just a switch, why do you think it will change voltage? Your amp calcs are done using the voltage that the ballast is running on.

PC

 

[grow nerd]

This is all fine and good but I was talking about switching only one leg on 240v. Anyway, never mind because this is over your head. (No offense intended; it just is.)

I never stated that I'd ever switch one leg of a 240v. I'm not sure what would happen, but I would not think it's safe.

But we were (at least I was) talking about switching 120v devices with a double pole breaker if you so wish, or 240v devices also with double pole breakers.

I suppose you might be able to make 240v single phase electricity, but you won't find it commercially available nor will you find anything that will run on it.

I thought all residential service, including 240v, was considered single-phase? (The two poles are shifted 180deg.)

And that there's no such thing as "2-phase service"?

Googling "single phase 240v", for instance, seems to clearly indicate that you're wrong about this 1-phase/2-phase thing, even though you claim to be an electrician and I'm far from an electrician.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/240V-single-phase.htm

Q:I just purchased a Dayton G73 electrical garage heater. It calls for 240V single phase. How do I go from the home 2 phase 240V to a single phase 240V?
A:Understanding electricity can be fun. You home is single phase. Commercial buildings may be 3phase. There is no two phase. Follow whatever instructions some with it.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_a...ork_in_the_US_which_has_a_120V_2-phase_system

Q: How can a 240V single-phase split ac work in the US which has a 120V 2-phase system?
A: Note:"2-phase" to describe US residential service is depricated nomenclature. US residential service is single phase because the two hot supply phases have 0 degrees of seperation between their phases: therefore they are in phase.
Answer: Just what does "220v single-phase split ac in the US which has a 110v 2-phase system" mean?

The vast majority of electricity in the US is delivered as single phase or three phase. The only areas in the US that use 2-phase [for industrial and commercial purposes] are Philadelphia/South Jersey [where it is being phased out-no joke intended] and somewhere out west...

It was one of the early poly-phase options pursued because of the natural magnetic differential between phases [makes motors spin without a capacitor]

Most residences receive 220-240 volt single phase electricity with a grounded center-tapped neutral, the purpose being to limit voltage to ground to less than 150 volts from either "hot"

 

[Neo 420]

And that there's no such thing as "2-phase service"?

Googling "single phase 240v", for instance, seems to clearly indicate that you're wrong about this 1-phase/2-phase thing, even though you claim to be an electrician and I'm far from an electrician.

Edit: actually, here's some Google'd links for you since I'm sure you'll dispute it and tell me how wrong I am.

There is such a thing as 2 phase 240v. It is usually in warehouses and equipment that needs a "kick" to start.


The pic below is my setup. T103 downstream from a 30 amp breaker im sub panel (not shown). The t103 is running 2 240v and 1 120v. I can reconfigure for at least 2 more 240v if I want. The single 120v catches the neutral from the separately wired receptacles. Those t series can be configures several ways.

 

[grow nerd]

There is such a thing as 2 phase 240v. It is usually in warehouses and equipment that needs a "kick" to start.

You are absolutely correct:

The only areas in the US that use 2-phase [for industrial and commercial purposes] are Philadelphia/South Jersey [where it is being phased out-no joke intended] and somewhere out west...