You don't learn do you. Didn't you get banned earlier for personal attacks and told not to spam your lights here?
You don't learn do you. Didn't you get banned earlier for personal attacks and told not to spam your lights here?
sx646522
Member
Vindication! Yep, some folks have short memories. This is the same vendor, doesn't want to pay for advertising on IC but craps on those who do. Deserves what he gets IMO.
Same one spamming a IC vendor right now in this thread:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=144122&page=20
One of you'll be doing something about that shortly, I reckon?
-SX
Hi
I currently run a 150W HPS and I'm thinking about upgrading my setup with a highly efficient Led panel. I want to use the best Leds available in their best bin, as long as they are available in Europe and their price not crazy. I think I will build a watercooled panel to run LEDs at their best efficiency and withdraw the Led's heat from the box.
I've found the CREE XP-G R5 bin that seems to be the best white Led. As you can see there is many blue in its spectrum.
Do you think that I could use only XP-G and Red Led rather than blue, red and white Led ?
The best red led seems to be the Luxeon Rebel Star PD01-0040. What do you think about a Panel with 20 Red Rebel, 6 XP-G and 4 XP-E Warm white to fill the high spectrum. That would be 60W of Led, could it work as well than a 150W HPS ?
Am I forgetting something like some deep red, UV or IR ?
I'm also interested in links to Led grow diary close to what I'm thinking.
Thanks
I currently run a 150W HPS and I'm thinking about upgrading my setup with a highly efficient Led panel. I want to use the best Leds available in their best bin, as long as they are available in Europe and their price not crazy. I think I will build a watercooled panel to run LEDs at their best efficiency and withdraw the Led's heat from the box.
I've found the CREE XP-G R5 bin that seems to be the best white Led. As you can see there is many blue in its spectrum.
Do you think that I could use only XP-G and Red Led rather than blue, red and white Led ?
The best red led seems to be the Luxeon Rebel Star PD01-0040. What do you think about a Panel with 20 Red Rebel, 6 XP-G and 4 XP-E Warm white to fill the high spectrum. That would be 60W of Led, could it work as well than a 150W HPS ?
Am I forgetting something like some deep red, UV or IR ?
I'm also interested in links to Led grow diary close to what I'm thinking.
Thanks
ahhhavalanche!
Member
Good news, Obama just gave $2.3 Billion for New Clean-Tech Manufacturing Jobs... CREE (a well respected LED mfr) requested $39 Million "to add capacity and capability to lower production costs of LED chips and fixtures" =Cheaper LEDs for us! Thanks Prez... now there is just 1 more thing you could do to help us out, you know what it is...
M
mrred
did you know leds use the same technology as cpus and there is a law as in theory that every few years they should get cheaper and perform better , nd the cpu law is that speed doubles everyyear
i been look at absorbent specturms and notices its a 2 blue to 3 red ratio
i been look at absorbent specturms and notices its a 2 blue to 3 red ratio
Moore's or Murphy's?
Moore's or Murphy's?
Not quite that simple MrRed.
Many of those curves were derived from algae
Different spectra have different functions, and absorbtion does not always equate to utilization.
That, and the needs change throughout the life of the plants, and differ for different strains and types.
Heck, thanks to nature, their needs change over a days time.
Don't get me wrong.
It's good that you are thinking 'bout these things.
Just sayin' that if one gathers all the information first, the thinking is more productive, yah?
You might want to Google-up "Granny Storm Crow", and settle in for a long winter's read.
Aloha,
Weezard
Moore's or Murphy's?
did you know leds use the same technology as cpus
Sorta, kinda.
and there is a law as in theory that every few years they should get cheaper and perform better , nd the cpu law is that speed doubles everyyear
Unfortunately Moore's law does not apply to simple doped semiconductor junctions.
And there's an upper limit as well, when producing light from electricity.
Once one reaches 100%, one is done.
No worry, we still have a ways to go.
i been look at absorbent specturms and notices its a 2 blue to 3 red ratio
Not quite that simple MrRed.
Many of those curves were derived from algae
Different spectra have different functions, and absorbtion does not always equate to utilization.
That, and the needs change throughout the life of the plants, and differ for different strains and types.
Heck, thanks to nature, their needs change over a days time.
Don't get me wrong.
It's good that you are thinking 'bout these things.
Just sayin' that if one gathers all the information first, the thinking is more productive, yah?
You might want to Google-up "Granny Storm Crow", and settle in for a long winter's read.
Aloha,
Weezard
U
unthing
That 100% efficiency would probably win you a science nobel (some kind of supraconducting?) . Just kidding.
Any new exciting components on the market? Experiments? Billybob had those experiments with yellow/orange-band, nothing ..a been heard about it for a long time... would be nice to hear something.
For bands, blue+red and little bit of white stills sounds like a good starting point.
. Just kidding.Any new exciting components on the market? Experiments? Billybob had those experiments with yellow/orange-band, nothing ..a been heard about it for a long time... would be nice to hear something.
For bands, blue+red and little bit of white stills sounds like a good starting point.
Last edited:
Again, science only. No personal attacks, no calling out by name and no sly winks at the camera.
TheFallenLion
Member
Hello FREEZERBOY! and WEEZARDDDDDDD, I still remember your Devastator Freezer... ripping your net cups like that, oh my those were some massive roots, and Weezard I assume you've been tinkering as per usual, I hope all is well in your grow lab sir. I got an Ebb and Gro, and a Nutra Dip Tri Meter, both awesome pieces of equipment btw, though I have some minor gripes with the EBB, but nothing serious.
But anyway, yeah I've been reading in here the last couple weeks silent, just seeing if any breakthroughs have happened, seems pretty quiet.
So is there a way to provide the photons needed to enhance the blooming effect without running hid? Because otherwise a small HID CMH, HPS, MH are the way to go. That would mitigate a lot of additional cooling costs, and therefore be a financially wise reason to adapt LED in the long run.
So I guess my real question is for those in the know whats the best source of raw photons lighting wise? Because someone has to do an experiment with that and a quality LED array and then we're golden pony boy.
Oh and that guy, he should be banned. There's no reason to insult each others products, be civilized, if your product is honestly better then people will buy it, and you will get rich, that's how the only free market that actually still exists works.
Well I'll check back in a few, waiting on some clones to be gotten, going to be running Urk through the Ebb running Lucas using MaxiBloom @ 7 Grams Per Gallon. Oh and Bay Area water sucks... chloramine and its ensuing pH flux is not fun to deal with.
But anyway, yeah I've been reading in here the last couple weeks silent, just seeing if any breakthroughs have happened, seems pretty quiet.
So is there a way to provide the photons needed to enhance the blooming effect without running hid? Because otherwise a small HID CMH, HPS, MH are the way to go. That would mitigate a lot of additional cooling costs, and therefore be a financially wise reason to adapt LED in the long run.
So I guess my real question is for those in the know whats the best source of raw photons lighting wise? Because someone has to do an experiment with that and a quality LED array and then we're golden pony boy.
Oh and that guy, he should be banned. There's no reason to insult each others products, be civilized, if your product is honestly better then people will buy it, and you will get rich, that's how the only free market that actually still exists works.
Well I'll check back in a few, waiting on some clones to be gotten, going to be running Urk through the Ebb running Lucas using MaxiBloom @ 7 Grams Per Gallon. Oh and Bay Area water sucks... chloramine and its ensuing pH flux is not fun to deal with.
SupraSPL
Member
Hi
I've found the CREE XP-G R5 bin that seems to be the best white Led. As you can see there is many blue in its spectrum.
Do you think that I could use only XP-G and Red Led rather than blue, red and white Led ?
The best red led seems to be the Luxeon Rebel Star PD01-0040. What do you think about a Panel with 20 Red Rebel, 6 XP-G and 4 XP-E Warm white to fill the high spectrum. That would be 60W of Led, could it work as well than a 150W HPS ?
Am I forgetting something like some deep red, UV or IR ?
I'm also interested in links to Led grow diary close to what I'm thinking.
Thanks
That XP-G spectrum looks very nice. It is similar to the ultra white GD plus I am using from OSRAM except the XP-G offers more overall output and a bit more relative output in the non blue range. GD Plus are ~95 lumens per watt and XP-G R5 is ~132 lumens per watt! Therefore I think you could be on to something regarding XP-G + red. I'd like to hear KNNAs thoughts on that.
I have seen the XP-G R5 on stars for about $8 a piece (ledsupply.com I think) A 30% increase in efficiency is always welcome. I think the XP-G handles higher current levels better than typical as well.
knna
Member
The XP-G is simply the best white LED currently, by a large margin. Ive ordered it to build my lamps with it.
Apart of the way better efficiency at typical currents (350-700mA) one thing that does it an excelent choice is that it can run up to 1A (~3.3W) while keeping a very good efficiency, still 105-110lm/W. Any other previous model has a way larger efficiency drop at high currents. This affect cost strongly, as although the XP-G is more expensive than other brand/models, when you consider it looking at the ratio of light emitted/$, its a good alternative cost wise, while efficiency is better than using any other model.
For example,the Osram Golden Dragon of the higher bin avalaible emits about 190lm (running at 700mA, 2.4W), while the Cree XP-G (R5 bin) is able to emit 360lm running at 1A (3.3W). Its 50% more light for each LED, so still if the XP-G cost a 50% more, its a better alternative, as it can emit the same amount of light using 25% less energy (watts). Thus, the XP-G would be the better choice still if price of each lm is higher.
But the actual price difference is below of that 50%,so the XP-G is a must to use rigth now. Unfortunatelly, actually it is only avalaible on coolwhite. A limitation for DIY is that the XP-G cant be hand soldered, so you need to buy it already soldered,that may affect price,obviously.
Aditionally, Cree is reporting excelent lab results for this chip, exceeding 200lm/W (350mA), so we can expect a fast improvement of this model, with the release of each time better bins along this year
Supra,if you want it mounted on stars,check cutter electronics. Worth to wait the shipping from Australia, as its a very reliable Cree supplier. You can select different mounting options and LED's bins, with competitive prices (for sure,cheaper than equivalents at ledsupply)
Apart of the way better efficiency at typical currents (350-700mA) one thing that does it an excelent choice is that it can run up to 1A (~3.3W) while keeping a very good efficiency, still 105-110lm/W. Any other previous model has a way larger efficiency drop at high currents. This affect cost strongly, as although the XP-G is more expensive than other brand/models, when you consider it looking at the ratio of light emitted/$, its a good alternative cost wise, while efficiency is better than using any other model.
For example,the Osram Golden Dragon of the higher bin avalaible emits about 190lm (running at 700mA, 2.4W), while the Cree XP-G (R5 bin) is able to emit 360lm running at 1A (3.3W). Its 50% more light for each LED, so still if the XP-G cost a 50% more, its a better alternative, as it can emit the same amount of light using 25% less energy (watts). Thus, the XP-G would be the better choice still if price of each lm is higher.
But the actual price difference is below of that 50%,so the XP-G is a must to use rigth now. Unfortunatelly, actually it is only avalaible on coolwhite. A limitation for DIY is that the XP-G cant be hand soldered, so you need to buy it already soldered,that may affect price,obviously.
Aditionally, Cree is reporting excelent lab results for this chip, exceeding 200lm/W (350mA), so we can expect a fast improvement of this model, with the release of each time better bins along this year
Supra,if you want it mounted on stars,check cutter electronics. Worth to wait the shipping from Australia, as its a very reliable Cree supplier. You can select different mounting options and LED's bins, with competitive prices (for sure,cheaper than equivalents at ledsupply)
M
mrred
heres that one law weezard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitz's_Law
M
mrred
LED LAB 2010 thread http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3225793
Thanks for your replies. It's always good to hear experts !
My thoughts lead me to this array:
- 2 XP-G R5 bin
- 2 XR-E Blue ( In order to complete the XP-G's royal-blue-like spectrum)
- 4 Luxeon Rebel Amber LXM2
- 20 Luxeon Rebel RED PD01-0040
I've got all of them except Red ones because I don't like the fact that Rebel Red LEDs are not so extraordinary.
I really need LEDs for hot season and anyway I will go in vacation next summer and stop the grow.
So I will wait to build my DIY panel. I hope there will be a breaktrough in Red LEDS before spring 2011.
By the way I obtained good result in my cloning room with white LEDs, 100% success rate and more room for the plants. You can take a look at my growlog:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3035846#post3035846
knna
Member
Sure you will have better red LEDs avalaible along this year.
I had been told by some LED manufacturers that they are going to release AlInGap deep red LEDs this year, starting aprox with spring. Im talking here of 33% minimun efficiency 660nm peaked LEDs, over a 50% improvement compared with current deep red LED, that use AlGaAsp chips with a max efficiency of 22% aprox (LEDEngin,Edixeon,etc).
As this new LEDs are single high power chips instead of arrays of low power chips (as LEDEngin devices), price will be way lower, similar to current typical AlInGap LEDs, which until now has been produced only emitting at lower wavelenghts.
This is perfect for us, so we are going to have LEDs covering the full red part of spectrum at high efficiency. When they are avalaible, we should experiment with the right ratios of each that gives off the better yields and quality. And all LEDs used having better efficiency yet that any reflectorized HID currently. We wont need to choose between efficiency and wavelenght, as is happening right now.
I had been told by some LED manufacturers that they are going to release AlInGap deep red LEDs this year, starting aprox with spring. Im talking here of 33% minimun efficiency 660nm peaked LEDs, over a 50% improvement compared with current deep red LED, that use AlGaAsp chips with a max efficiency of 22% aprox (LEDEngin,Edixeon,etc).
As this new LEDs are single high power chips instead of arrays of low power chips (as LEDEngin devices), price will be way lower, similar to current typical AlInGap LEDs, which until now has been produced only emitting at lower wavelenghts.
This is perfect for us, so we are going to have LEDs covering the full red part of spectrum at high efficiency. When they are avalaible, we should experiment with the right ratios of each that gives off the better yields and quality. And all LEDs used having better efficiency yet that any reflectorized HID currently. We wont need to choose between efficiency and wavelenght, as is happening right now.
LEDexperimenter
New member
Hi Knna,
Who will be making the new AlInGap deep red LEDs ? I am really interested in getting my hands on some! Thanks for all the great posts. I am having fun with LED's. My first light was using some leds from ledsupply and it was a good test, but I really need the deep red and i hate the price of ledengin parts from mouser.
Who will be making the new AlInGap deep red LEDs ? I am really interested in getting my hands on some! Thanks for all the great posts. I am having fun with LED's. My first light was using some leds from ledsupply and it was a good test, but I really need the deep red and i hate the price of ledengin parts from mouser.
knna
Member
Supra, sorry, I didnt see your last post. Yep, Im going to start trying with half 640 and half 660nm.
LEDexperimenter, Epistar makes the new AlInGaP high power deep red chips. Many manufacturers uses Epistar chips on their red LEDs, so probably many of them will offer high power deep reds.
The first to release them is going to be Dominant, I believe. At least I already received samples from them. I believe Everlight is going to release a model soon (if not its already on market). Other thing is the very long lead times lately on the LED industry, so probably you will need to wait about 3 months before being able to put your hands on them. The good thing is technology is the same used on standard (625nm) dominant red LEDs, so prices are similar, meaning about 1.5€ for a 1W LED, not 3 or 8€.
Devices Ive tested have more than double the efficiency of current (Edison and LEDEngin) deep red models, so we could use half LEDs (and half power) and get the same amount of light. Efficiency is similar to standard red LEDs. Ive told some times in this thread I dont use deep red LEDs because the reduced efficiency (apart of some problems when using just 660nm red), so as soon as I tested and checked the samples of these new ones, Ive ordered them. Ive delayed the launch of my comercial lamps to use these LEDs. Although still there are standard red LEDs more efficient than these new 660nm, you need to get top bins to get them (and that is not easy), and anyway, the difference now is small, so from now on, its going to be possible to choose between both types of red (Im going to use both).
Ill get these LEDs in about 3 months (if lucky, 2), so if any of you want some, ask me first so I can order a larger amount (Ive ordered for my first batch of lamps, not to sell spare parts, so Ill need to order some more if some friend wants some). This model can be hand mounted (has side contacts, although suspended).
LEDexperimenter, Epistar makes the new AlInGaP high power deep red chips. Many manufacturers uses Epistar chips on their red LEDs, so probably many of them will offer high power deep reds.
The first to release them is going to be Dominant, I believe. At least I already received samples from them. I believe Everlight is going to release a model soon (if not its already on market). Other thing is the very long lead times lately on the LED industry, so probably you will need to wait about 3 months before being able to put your hands on them. The good thing is technology is the same used on standard (625nm) dominant red LEDs, so prices are similar, meaning about 1.5€ for a 1W LED, not 3 or 8€.
Devices Ive tested have more than double the efficiency of current (Edison and LEDEngin) deep red models, so we could use half LEDs (and half power) and get the same amount of light. Efficiency is similar to standard red LEDs. Ive told some times in this thread I dont use deep red LEDs because the reduced efficiency (apart of some problems when using just 660nm red), so as soon as I tested and checked the samples of these new ones, Ive ordered them. Ive delayed the launch of my comercial lamps to use these LEDs. Although still there are standard red LEDs more efficient than these new 660nm, you need to get top bins to get them (and that is not easy), and anyway, the difference now is small, so from now on, its going to be possible to choose between both types of red (Im going to use both).
Ill get these LEDs in about 3 months (if lucky, 2), so if any of you want some, ask me first so I can order a larger amount (Ive ordered for my first batch of lamps, not to sell spare parts, so Ill need to order some more if some friend wants some). This model can be hand mounted (has side contacts, although suspended).
L
lowrydergrower
Wow I would gladly try one of these out, going to be interesting to see how they perform.
