Whole Octagon dying on me - plz help!

[ericsson]

HellO!
Here is my thread from the vert section. Not long ago they got fired with EC @ 1.9. Asides from that the pH is going wack and even when balancing the res to 5.0, after the first few feeding cycles (2min on / 10 off) it's back up to 6.0-6.2. And after each new one it keeps going up (after ~24h it's around 7.5!!).

OK, lets strat with "THE CHART":
What STRAIN are you growing?
GHSC "Big Bang", "The Church", "AMS"
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
seeds
What is the age of your plants?
25-26 days
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
VEG
What Technique are you using?
No technique
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
rockwool
What is the Nutrient temperature?
around 75*F lights on and 70*F lights off
What Nutrient's are you using?
Hesi Hydro range (Hesi Growth, Hesi Root Complex, Hesi PowerZyme, Hesi Syper Vit)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?
EC started from 0.6 (after 1 week) up to 0.8-0.9 (which a few days later would be around 1.2-1.3 - before the 1.9 super-frying).
What is the pH of the "Tank"?
Always "stared" from 5.5
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment?
Yes
When was your last watering?
2min on / 10min off
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
no changes
What size bulb are you using?
2 x 400W (E-40) HPS in two 50cm, 125mm cooltubes
What is the distance to the canopy?
around 20"
What is your RH Factor?
20-30%
What is the canopy temperature?
around 80*F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
78-81*F Day, 72*F Night
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
2 x 110 CFM (fresh air inlet and room outlet), 1 x 110 CFM for the cooltubes
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
1 mixing fan blowing at the plants
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
RO water
Has teh plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
NO
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
NO
Are plant's infected with pest's
NO

Here are the pictures of the plants from last wednesday, they look even worse by now..

SOMEBODY HELP

E.

 

[Sleepy]

how large is the reservoir you have there?

can you try tap water, then adjust the pH to where you want it...no nutes, and watch your pH...see which way it goes and how long it takes.

when i use the R/O water, the pH is more difficult to lower and keep where i want it.

you may want a larger reservoir.

what are you using to adjust your pH?

are you mixing the nutes first and adjusting the pH last?

oh, yeah...did you soak the rockwool in pH adjusted water overnight?

best of luck.

 

[ericsson]

Hey Sleepy, thanks 4 taking a look!

The res is 18gal, though I haven't been filling it all the way up, so it has about 15-16gal's in it. The thing with tap water is that it has around 0.8 EC, and this system has been run on tap water most of the time (my RO set got lost during transport and I finally received and hooked it up last week). The pH swing's were pretty much the same (even bigger with the EC though), so I was hoping thing would change once they get RO. Before they got RO they got fired due to super high EC. Unfortunately, the only thing RO chaned is that the EC doesn't go so wild, but the pH is fucking bananas and the plants are waaay locked out, simply dying every day. Yesterday I stood there and waited for each feeding cycle, balanced the res after each one (going as low as pH 4.5), just to get the next reading ~5.2, 5.8 after that, later 6.5 etc. I balanced it a couple of times, left it at around 5.0, came back after 20-24h and had 7.6!! I'm aware that most probably this grow is over, I just want to find out what happend, so the next one doesn't end the same time the same way.

For adjusting the water I use Hesi pH(-) for the grow stage (I also have pH(-) for flower, but it doesn't look like I'll be using it any time soon).

Yes, I only gave them a diluted nute solution, and I always balance the water after adding all the nutrients. Also, the rockwool has been soaked in pH balanced water. The only thing I soaked in plain tap water (left to settle for 36h) with no pH balancing was the hydroton, but I don't think it could be causing such problems for such a long time..? I was soaked for at least 24h and then thoroughly rinsed.

Could this be root rot (how to tell)??

Thanks,
Eric

 

[krunchbubble]

Hey Sleepy, thanks 4 taking a look!

The res is 18gal, though I haven't been filling it all the way up, so it has about 15-16gal's in it. The thing with tap water is that it has around 0.8 EC, and this system has been run on tap water most of the time (my RO set got lost during transport and I finally received and hooked it up last week). The pH swing's were pretty much the same (even bigger with the EC though), so I was hoping thing would change once they get RO. Before they got RO they got fired due to super high EC. Unfortunately, the only thing RO chaned is that the EC doesn't go so wild, but the pH is fucking bananas and the plants are waaay locked out, simply dying every day. Yesterday I stood there and waited for each feeding cycle, balanced the res after each one (going as low as pH 4.5), just to get the next reading ~5.2, 5.8 after that, later 6.5 etc. I balanced it a couple of times, left it at around 5.0, came back after 20-24h and had 7.6!! I'm aware that most probably this grow is over, I just want to find out what happend, so the next one doesn't end the same time the same way.

For adjusting the water I use Hesi pH(-) for the grow stage (I also have pH(-) for flower, but it doesn't look like I'll be using it any time soon).

Yes, I only gave them a diluted nute solution, and I always balance the water after adding all the nutrients. Also, the rockwool has been soaked in pH balanced water. The only thing I soaked in plain tap water (left to settle for 36h) with no pH balancing was the hydroton, but I don't think it could be causing such problems for such a long time..? I was soaked for at least 24h and then thoroughly rinsed.

Could this be root rot (how to tell)??

Thanks,
Eric

most likely root rot, pull a couple out and check them, post pics.......

 

[Sleepy]

wow...better luck to you with the next attempt.

i am sorry i could not help.

there has to be an easier way to keep your pH stable.

 

[ericsson]

KB, nice 2 C U dropped in as well!

OK, how to pull them out with as much root mass as possible (I'm thinking that most of it might stay in the hyrdoton and I'll just pull out the netpot with the rockwool in it..)?
If I do pull them out and it's not root rot - won't those roots that are left inside definitely rot and spread it all over? But then again, they're close to dead anyway..

I'll rip to cock suckers tommorow and post the pic's here.

E.

 

[TexasToker]

I would go with root issues as well. I am not familiar with vertical grows very much, but looking at your design I see very little room for root growth. That and the thick algae on the cubes makes me think it went down the tubes to the roots.

I know you have pH issues, but a decaying rootmass can change your pH.

 

[Mr. Hugeblunts]

Is that rockwool supposed to be GREEN?

 

[ericsson]

The alge on top of the rockwool is really only on the top layer (I cut the qubes a bit too large and didn't manage to cover the whole rockwool with hydroton in the netcups). Alge won't live in places that light doesn't get to, that's why it's only growing on the very top, where almost direct light is penetrating.

 

[krunchbubble]

The alge on top of the rockwool is really only on the top layer (I cut the qubes a bit too large and didn't manage to cover the whole rockwool with hydroton in the netcups). Alge won't live in places that light doesn't get to, that's why it's only growing on the very top, where almost direct light is penetrating.

ya, the algae on top of he cubes will not affect anything, dont worry about that

 

[Lazyman]

Overfed, nute burn. I'd say dump your reservoir and start over ANYTIME there's a problem like this.

Ph your RO and feed them that for a couple days, also foliar with plain ph'ed RO for a few days. I think you're watering too often, RW holds a ton of water and there's no way it can use it up in ten minutes. Don't love them so much, sometime you gotta stand by and just watch but don't touch!

 

[hazy]

^^ take that advice.

btw, don't ever start your pH down low like that.The lockouts that it didn't get from the pH rising, it got from you dropping it down below 5.5, esp that 5.0 and 4.5~ouch!

 

[Kcar]

HellO!



When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
no changes

E.

Do you mean you haven't changed your res in 26 days?
No wonder your PH is wacky!

 

[cannaboy]

I am no expert or a hydro fanatic but i'd say too much food too early on. Or mabe the design of the vertical system needs rethinking I think there is way too many places for salt to build up and water & nutrients to get captured and evaporate easy,, also the base row of plants stays soggy with the feeding schedule your using try keep everything the same and its simple,,,, mabe a dose of something around E.C 1.3 PH 5.8 the first feed at 40/50 days old for seedlings,, don't start seeds in a rockwool cube, its not a good practise.. Rhizotonic is all that is needed throughout the veg cycle,,, I'd take out the plants flush and scrub clean the system get the salts out of it..... Then put the plants in refill the rez.. and start again..

It's not as bad as it looks,,,

keep your head up & GOOD LUCK!!

 

[ericsson]

Overfed, nute burn. I'd say dump your reservoir and start over ANYTIME there's a problem like this.

Ph your RO and feed them that for a couple days, also foliar with plain ph'ed RO for a few days. I think you're watering too often, RW holds a ton of water and there's no way it can use it up in ten minutes. Don't love them so much, sometime you gotta stand by and just watch but don't touch!

Hello Lazyman!
The rockwool is only in the netcups (I've started my seeds in it) and those are rather small qubes - ~2". The rest of the rootmass is in the octagon filled with hydroton. The tubes are being fed from the top, so the rockwool isn't getting soaked directly (it is moist though). I will take your advice, but the problem is that the pH is going way out of bounds even after the first few (2-3) feedings. Would you try changing the feeding schedule (and if yes - to what)?

Do you mean you haven't changed your res in 26 days?
No wonder your PH is wacky!

Hey K!
No, I meant that I didn't change the feeding schedule or nutes. The res has been changed out every 2 days (when using tap water) due to high EC going even higher and pH going totally crazy! Since8 the RO system came and I set it up (last week) the res has been change out twice (as I could add fresh RO to bring the EC down to around 0.8 and just balance the pH - well for a few feedings at least - with pH(-) ).

^^ take that advice.

btw, don't ever start your pH down low like that.The lockouts that it didn't get from the pH rising, it got from you dropping it down below 5.5, esp that 5.0 and 4.5~ouch!

hazy - will do!
About the really low starting pH - even if I started @ 4.5, as I mentioned earlier on - after the first feeding (which takes 2min) the water in the res was ~5.2-5.4. After the second already past 6.2. If id start from 5.5 I would have to sit there and add pH- after every single feeding

I am no expert or a hydro fanatic but i'd say too much food too early on. Or mabe the design of the vertical system needs rethinking I think there is way too many places for salt to build up and water & nutrients to get captured and evaporate easy,, also the base row of plants stays soggy with the feeding schedule your using try keep everything the same and its simple,,,, mabe a dose of something around E.C 1.3 PH 5.8 the first feed at 40/50 days old for seedlings,, don't start seeds in a rockwool cube, its not a good practise.. Rhizotonic is all that is needed throughout the veg cycle,,, I'd take out the plants flush and scrub clean the system get the salts out of it..... Then put the plants in refill the rez.. and start again..

It's not as bad as it looks,,,

keep your head up & GOOD LUCK!!

Hi CB,

What would you suggest as for the system modycifations - leaving the base row empty for now? I don't think that a big amount of water/food gets captured in the base, I also haven't noticed the bottom netcups/rockwool being more moist then the others.

You would say not to feed them at all up to 40-50days and only use Rhizotonic (I do have Hesi Root Complex - is it similar)?

About starting seeds in rockwool - is it really a bad idea? Some people grow just in it throughout the whole grow. What other options do I have, where I wouldn't have to use drippers for feeding (as I think that for perlite / hydroton I would) or be there 5 times a day for hand watering to make sure my youngsters don't dry out..?

If I take all the plants out I'll rip the shit out of their roots and having in mind they aren't feeling too well atm (man, they look a lot worse then in those pircutes from last week) I don't know if they would make it (plus, they'll still be in the rockwool). But then again, as I wrote to Krunch, they are probably dead anyway so I guess there's nothing to lose. I'll pull a few in a cpl of hours, check if it's not root rot - post pictures either way and then hopefully you guys can help me decide what to do next, as I've ran out of ideas.

Stay safe!
E.

 

[ericsson]

Ok - to the rescue!
got all the plants out today. Riped some of the roots while doing it, but nothing tragic. What surprised me - there was very little rootmass in the tubes - most of it was not much below the netcups. This is what the roots look like:

I've never seen root-rot in "real life", but in my opinion they don't look that bad. The roots weren't slimy or gooey, they didn't stink so I think there's a chance they're ok??

What I've noticed - the rockwool is moist, in some of the netcups even wet (not dripping wet, but more then moist). I took the whole octagon apart (what a P.I.T.A.!!), cannaboy had a good point and some of the return water get's captured in the base of the system (is this harmful - could it have anything to do with my pH problems?). I'm trying to figure out how to solve this problem, but up till now the only thing that came to my head is slightly tilting the system forwards.

Here is a picture to show that the alge isn't so bad (and deep), but I'd rather do somthing with it anyway (whatever it does, it surely doesn't help):

I was wondering - since they're out, can I cut off a bit of rockwool from the top, allowing me to cover it with hydroton all the way up in the netcups? As for the plants - I rinsed them all in pH balanced water (around 5.6-5.8) with 1 tbsp/gal of H202, having to change the water in the bucket I used to rince them in a few times, as after dipping in about 10-15 plants and squeezing out the water from the rockwool, the pH would rise to about 6.4. After rinsing out all the plants I put them in two trays (35 per tray), poured in some RO pH 5.5 water (enough for it to cover the roots, preventing them from drying out) + 1 tbsp/gal of H202 and also foliar fed them with the same water. Coverd the trays with domes and put them under a 400W MH (it's high above, as I don't want too much heat to prevent root rot if it's starting / already started).

The room is upside down at the moment, no octagon:

I didn't notice any salt build up in the system (apart from literally a few hydroton chunks with some white salt on them), there was some "hydroton dust" in the base of the system where the water was captured, nothing major.

So, what do you guys think - what's my case?

For how long can the plants stay in the trays with the roots in water - I'll try to get the system and hydroton washed out tommorow, probably put it back together on thursday. Will they be fine? Aslo - when I get it back up and running - should I change the feeding schedule (and if yes - what times would you suggest trying?), how to solve the "constantly moist/wet rockwool" watering problem (if it is the problem)?

Hope thats not too many questions, I'm trying to save them and my grow

Eric

 

[ninesix]

holy fuck thats sad. I hope shits works out man, looks like that octagon took some work. You roots dont look that bad, could be whiter though.

 

[cannaboy]

Yo dude I am not saying that your system needs changing of that your base row of plants will stay water logged,, its just that is just some of the typical things found in vertical systems as gravity is what it is and water gets everywhere,,, Seedlings in the wild like soil to grow that is not too strong and need to be nurtured for a while not like clones... you can grow seeds in rockwool but you have to feed the small plants and they don't need it!!! They always work better in soil trust me... as for the watering by hand is annoying but if you did the same as you are but had clones of your best plant it would work better IMAO, the tnt root complex is bad boy stuff!! That will work.. Just keep going mate you'll do it..

well done with the clean job I reckon youll see improvements every day now and in a fourghtnight youll never no it was bad.....

can't you fill the unit with coco???

 

[ericsson]

Scrubed out the whole system today.

The hydroton is washed out and is being soaked in pH 5.5 RO atm.
I wanna try to put it back 2gether tommorow, sort the room out (perhaps add an outlet vent. in the res cover, try to get the water temps a few deg. down) and throw the plants back in on friday. Still no one with any ideas what the hell happened and caused all this? Do the roots look ok to you 2 - is there anything else I can do apart from adding the H2O2?

I still don't know what 2 do with the feeding schedule - was thinking of trying 1m on / 1h off (or could this still be too much??) untill I see them drooping (which would mean the rootmass it big & in the tubes). Anyone?

E.

 

[ericsson]

Yo dude I am not saying that your system needs changing of that your base row of plants will stay water logged,, its just that is just some of the typical things found in vertical systems as gravity is what it is and water gets everywhere,,, Seedlings in the wild like soil to grow that is not too strong and need to be nurtured for a while not like clones... you can grow seeds in rockwool but you have to feed the small plants and they don't need it!!! They always work better in soil trust me... as for the watering by hand is annoying but if you did the same as you are but had clones of your best plant it would work better IMAO, the tnt root complex is bad boy stuff!! That will work.. Just keep going mate you'll do it..

well done with the clean job I reckon youll see improvements every day now and in a fourghtnight youll never no it was bad.....

can't you fill the unit with coco???

Hey man, nice 2 cya back.
Well, I might try slightly tilting the system towards the res, so no or less water stays trapped in the base.

About starting the seeds in soil - I guess I could, but I'd have to wash it out of the roots later on (which the plants also don't like very much). The worst thing is that I still didn't figure out what set me off track so bad..

As for coco - sure I can, but I've never dealt with it (hell, I don't even know if it's ok to use in a recirculating system?) and I think that I'd be even more lost with the feeding schedule then I am now..

My thread in the vert section was visited by mr cheese, who ran a very similar system to mine and he filled the whole thing with diced rockwool, which was watered 3 times a day for 5min. If this doesn't work out perhaps I'll give that a try? I really don't know, I'm kinda lost at the moment