Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[Orygun]

Hey again madpenguin and thanks for all the help.

I've had another look at my panel and it looks like it might be legal besides the fucking heaters however there still isn't any way to turn off power to the panel its self.

As far as the breakers go I don't think they are pushmatics but I'll include some pictures of the panel in this post so we can clarify that.

How I was planing to run my new grow was by running a 75 amp sub panel in the slot that my dryer currently occupies and putting it next to my current panel which is in the garage then hooking the dryer up to that in addition to my grow room. Do you think this sounds like a safe way to do things?

One other thing you mentioned that you'd just tear out the panel I have and put a new one in how involved is this? I've got a very close friend that would be more then likely willing to help me if I went that route.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=16656&pictureid=340563e

http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=16656&pictureid=340566

http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=16656&pictureid=340564

http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=16656&pictureid=340565

 

[Avenger]

is that a Federal Pacific panel?

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

is that a Federal Pacific panel?

Shiiiiiit..... i used to own a house with a Federal Pacific "Welder" without a main shutoff.

I thought it would be a fortune to fix but when I sold the house it was only $2100ish iirc. So a very small price to pay for the safety.


Anyways, whats up MP and Avenger? Quick question, yesterday morning i went into the growroom and the lights were off. The AUBE timer has no program now so it's just a manual switch. the lights were on before I went to bed. they must have gone off at about 530 for it to still be 69 with the lights off at 7.... moot point

I hit the button and the relay clicked and the lights fired up. No rhyme or reason they should be off.

I don't think there were any power hickups since every single thing in the house was still on and the clocks that reset right away were still good.

So WTF could cause the lights to turn off? Any ideas? Anything I can do to get it to "resume program" and refire the lights if it happens? Thanks

thsnk
smiley

 

[Orygun]

Yeah it is, how bad are these panels? I'm thinking not to good based on what GS said.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Heya, check this link, it's the one I found when researching,

http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

Smiley

 

[madpenguin]

Yeah it is, how bad are these panels? I'm thinking not to good based on what GS said.

Dude.... Federal Pacific Panels are extremely dangerous. The failure rate for their breakers is astronomically high... Here is an infrared camera shot of a federal pacific double pole breaker:

You have alot of shit going on with that panel to boot so I would not recommend replacing it yourself unless you have done electrical work before and are very comfortable doing it along with actually knowing what your doing...

If you own this house please try to get that panel replaced soon. If you rent, then I would move.

 

[SmokinErb]

Ughhh.... No, not really. Anytime romex can be pinched or "subject to physical damage" it's illegal. You can still do it if you want but it's not legal and _could_ pose a problem down the road. You should have drilled up from below right into the bottom plate of that wall and fished that 12/2 into a stud cavity. Then you could have used an old work box and flush mounted your receptacles.

I'm REALLY drunk so.. if I'm off, dont mind me.

My recepticals aren't mounted yet. Only thing I've done was run the wire. I don't think I "pinched" anything either. Basically there are TWO rows to the floor separated by either a 6" or 8" board, not sure which.

All I'm doing is running it STRAIGHT down into the breaker box, and then in that 6"-8" I'm turning it 90* to run it a few more feet to the side. There will be no severe bend in the cable ANYWHERE.

By stud cavity you mean the like 18" of space between 2 studs? I still haven't decided to mount it on the wall or on the floor, I just wanted to get it ran from the breaker box to the room, which I've done. Where I put it is still up for discussion and can easily be ran somewhere else. I just got the "hard" part done of getting it hooked up to the breaker.

Unless I did something wrong? I dont THINK the wire is being pinched anywhere?

 

[Orygun]

Hey madpenguin thanks for the informative picture and GS as well for the link that was a good read.

Now as far as my house goes I'm renting it, so I could move but that isn't a very good option for me since I've got a crop in full flower and another in veg Plus my landlord situation is good here. So my best option really seems to be switching out the panels.
A good friend of mine who is fairly experienced with wiring said he'd be comfortable helping me do it, and he'd do the hot parts. He however has never swapped a panel before so madpenguin if you have any advice on how to do this safely without pulling the meter would be much appreciated, but if this isn't something your comfortable doing I completely understand.

 

[Avenger]

pull the meter.

 

[madpenguin]

Pull the meter.

That was redundant...

It's the only thing you can do unless you want to fish hot wires out of a panel which I REALLY don't suggest doing. I've done it, but in retrospect, it's pretty stupid when you can just pull the meter.

If the meter reader notices the lock has been snipped then play stupid. They can't do anything. I will say that I've seen a meter bell explode in someones face before and it really wasn't cool at all. Generally it's uneventful and semi safe but there is always a potential for explosions when connecting or disconnecting live power, which is what you'll be doing by pulling and then replacing the meter face.

It's pretty irresponsible of me to advocate you pulling the meter and doing this yourself but it sounds like your going to do it anyway.

I'm partial to QO Panels myself when you go shopping for one. The hot bus is pretty limited to exposure and they are just generally good panels.. Make sure you mark all the wires and make sure they get hooked up properly. If you have a white wire stabbed onto a DP breaker then wrap it with red electrical tape and group it with the other 120v wire that accompanies it. Just make sure everything stays labeled and orderly because it will be a giant mess once you disconnect all the wires and pull that old panel out. It's easy to stumble and say "What the fuck was this for?" if you don't plan ahead.

Good luck and please be safe. When you pull the meter, it should be a fairly tough and resistance to it. Just keep rocking it back and forth little by little and pull it straight towards you. Once it's off, cut a piece of card board to insert inside there so it covers up the entire inside of the meter.

Be caerefull please.

 

[madpenguin]

SmokinErb, you've got your 12/2 coming right up through the floor. You can step on that and drop shit on it and all sorts of shit. It's "exposed to damage".

You should have drilled up into the wall cavity and then cut a hole in the wall to fish the wire out so you could old work it and make it look proper.

 

[madpenguin]

Also, OryGun, If you feel like posing questions as you go then do it. Let me know what day you'll be doing this and keep a camera handy. I'm not hardly working (away from home) so I'm just sittin on my ass anyway.

I'd rather hang out by the computer and help answer any questions as they arise then one of you guys getting fried. If you have any doubts as to anything, then just don't do it. Ask first.

Don't assume you know how to do something even if it seems obvious either. Make sure you get no larger than a 125A Main Breaker Panel if that was you with the #2 copper. Yea, it was. Get a 48 space panel or something big. That way there is no worries. Panel will cost around 90 bucks.

When tying circuits back in, make sure you measure the gauge of the wire on the spot and then use the appropriate breaker. Don't just use whatever was already being used cause they could have had 20A breakers on #14 wire....

Anyway... Just ask for help if you need it.

Get some 3/4" 4 ply plywood (not OSB), and use masonry screws to mount it to your basement wall. Then screw the panel to that. If that #2 copper is going to run any more than 5 feet inside the house before it enters the new panel, then please buy an outside 125A disconnect. That will need to be mounted by your meter. # 2 copper from the meter to the disconnect (fused), then #2 from the disconnect to your new panel. If you put an outside disconnect in, the just buy an MLO panel instead of a MB. Main Lug Only vs Main Breaker.

Fuck man.... A ground rod needs to be driven and bonded to the neutral bar at your first disconnecting means (#6 bare copper with an acorn clamp). A #4 copper bare needs to be ran to your water main and bonded to the street side of the meter (it should also jumper the meter), so use 2 brass clamps.

Ugh...... Your getting into a big job here. Do it right or don't do it at all.

 

[SmokinErb]

SmokinErb, you've got your 12/2 coming right up through the floor. You can step on that and drop shit on it and all sorts of shit. It's "exposed to damage".

You should have drilled up into the wall cavity and then cut a hole in the wall to fish the wire out so you could old work it and make it look proper.

Okay, I get your concern, but I had that taken care of ahead of time. I was truly wasted (2/3 bottle of scotch + 2x 750mg Vicodin and some fine NL#5) and wasn't entirely comprehending the post.

One of two things are going to happen with that wire:

1) I'll be wiring up the recepticals to come out of the floor rather than the wall. I'd either cut a bigger hole to mount the work box, or maybe get a metal work box and just have it elevated off the floor rather than sitting flush with the floor. Laying it flush isn't a problem as the receptical isn't going to be near any water. I was probably going to raise it as a safety precaution regardless.

2) I'll be re-routing the wire BACK UNDER the plywood to whatever wall I decide to place the recepticals. Most likely I'll be doing a floor mount.

That wire WILL NOT be exposed at any point. I just cut a hole literally STRAIGHT UP from the breaker box to make fishing the wire into the box easy.

I DID consider maybe wiring up the recepticals to a 2x3 on my octagon, in which case I'd buy that metal housing for running wire on the exposed side of the wall.

 

[madpenguin]

All that sounds fine and safe. I guess I made assumptions based solely on the pictures you posted. You know what your doing so no worries.

You can have floor receptacles but it's against code to have a flush mount/face-up receptacle on any counter top surface. Spilling kool-aid and such into a gang box isn't a good idea.

 

[schwagg]

i'm trying to figure something out here. i have several digital timers that are brand new. a lumatek 400W ballast and surge protecter. when i run the program on the timer while its plugged into the surge strip, it never fires the light. i have to go down and manually turn the timer on. it turns off by itself just fine. do you think its the surge strip?
setup is surge strip, timer, ballast. do i even need the surge protection?

 

[dybert]

i'm trying to figure something out here. i have several digital timers that are brand new. a lumatek 400W ballast and surge protecter. when i run the program on the timer while its plugged into the surge strip, it never fires the light. i have to go down and manually turn the timer on. it turns off by itself just fine. do you think its the surge strip?
setup is surge strip, timer, ballast. do i even need the surge protection?

I had this same problem with a new digital timer... I pushed the "reset" on it... (the little pin hole) set it up again, and it worked fine after that.

Have you tried that yet?

 

[schwagg]

yep, i've tried that. i have three of these timers just to rule out a bad one. been through all the programming several times. also two different surge strips. everything on it's own 15 amp circuit.

 

[schwagg]

i'm trying to figure something out here. i have several digital timers that are brand new. a lumatek 400W ballast and surge protecter. when i run the program on the timer while its plugged into the surge strip, it never fires the light. i have to go down and manually turn the timer on. it turns off by itself just fine. do you think its the surge strip?
setup is surge strip, timer, ballast. do i even need the surge protection?

so a little more info if it helps. my panel is a 200 amp box. someone in the past ran a foot of wire down below the box and installed a GFCI plug. it's on a 15 amp breaker.

i just plugged the digi timer in to outlet and it still wont fire the lamp unless i manually turn it on. could it be the gfci? it doesn't pop so i'm guessing that's okay? should i swap out for a regular outlet?

 

[schwagg]

well, fixed my problems due to this thread and MP. ended up i had 16 wire with a 15 amp breaker. i had two xcords running across to my setup. instead i gutted everything, ran 12/2 and a 20 amp breaker with a triple gangbox. light fires right up with the timer now!
thanks to everyone who put some great info and knowledge into this thread.

i do have one last question though. i ran 12 to my outlets which are 15 amps apiece. i know i wont draw 15 amps on one but if i did, would the outlet fry? would the 20 amp breaker stay put and just let the outlet burn? should i get 20 amp outlets? thanks!

 

[madpenguin]

No, your 15A receptacles are rated for 20A pass through. They will be fine if they see over 15A.

That #16 was bad news. It had to have been lamp/extension-cord wire also. They don't make #16 romex... Bad news. Thanks for making things right. Could have very easily resulted in a fire. Thank the timer for not firing. Seriously...