New grow process?/What to call it?

[Terramoto]

hoo i think that im getting the thing now,
so compost tea is used to produce microbes to help on the soil? (putting it simple) Something that confuses me is the NPK levels i thought the plants were the ones that needed that, but i see people brewing teas according with NPK on the items like worm castings, bat guano, bone meal, blood meal.

 

[pray4pistils]

But if you filter it like you do your teas, then it would enter the system particle free.

Right, I filter my teas to remove particulate matter. Before I'd bubble the organic stuff in a nylon stocking dropped into my reservoir. But, I soon had trouble with bits and pieces falling out and them then clogging my pump. Filtration fixed that completely. The clogging that I was just thinking about regards biofilms and such. Films won't clog a pump but I suspect that they would cause problems in a drip line that's only a few mm in diameter. It's mostly speculation, though.

So at that point the 'clogging' potential should be limited to the formation of sizable colonies once in system.

Yep, this is precisely what I'm thinking.

B/c what I like about the drip system and organics, would be the microherd getting a continual replenishment of moisture, without drowning.

Drowning? These microbes are happy to live in oxygenated water without any medium at all (myco fungus excepted). A positively aerated medium or one that is oxygen-rich by itself should be a fine home to beneficial microbial populations, don't you figure? I've never heard of drowning bacteria and such before. You have, I take it?

In the sense that CT Guy and others using the term 'compost teas' (myself included) it generally refers to a tea brewed until specific microbe-levels are achieved as a means to inoculate the soil to increase (hopefully) higher levels of the soil's microbial activity.

Well, I'm very motivated to keep a high microbial population. It isn't so much to feed the plant but to dominate the pathogenic "nasties". I brew my teas for about 12 - 24 hours depending on how many foods I use and if I add bacteria/fungus cultures myself or choose to propagate what's already in the fish fertz, guano, or EWC. I pay attention to pH and ppm changes as well as the presence of foam to determine if the microherd is hard at work. The molasses or other sweetener generally goes in after I'm sure that the brew is "teaming" with the proper microbes.

Perhaps using the term 'compost tea' isn't the best choice all the way around. The acronym ACT (Aerated Compost Tea) would identify the type of tea that 'compost tea dudes' are usually talking about.

For the record, I'm specifically talking about ACT whenever I discuss this topic. My stuff is possibly much weaker than what y'all organics only people rely on, though.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

hoo i think that im getting the thing now,
so compost tea is used to produce microbes to help on the soil? (putting it simple)

Simply put - correct.

Something that confuses me is the NPK levels i thought the plants were the ones that needed that, but i see people brewing teas according with NPK on the items like worm castings, bat guano, bone meal, blood meal.

I would be inclined to use the term 'fertilizer tea' vs compost tea but others would certainly disagree with that rather narrow definition.

CC

 

[orpanic]

this thread still going?> think about it kids.

 

[pray4pistils]

you made a point there which i liked by mixing organics and chems you can have a lower salt content because the ec of chems alone is less cause you also have the ec from the organic... thats why i started using organic and chem cuz i can give them chems at half strenth and pump the organic nutes up ther which gives me a higher end ec than my plants could handle if they were on chems alone...

YES, you completely "get it". That is a perfect summary of the technique that this thread is meant to explore more fully. -hopefully by folks much smarter or experienced than me!

so compost tea is used to produce microbes to help on the soil? (putting it simple)

As you're probably aware there are many types of "microbes". The "beneficials" convert raw organic foods (such as those that you'll need to feed) to chemical forms that your plant can actually absorb. Your crops cannot eat raw organic nutes directly. You could pour in gallons of the stuff and then watch your plants starve to death if you sterilized everything.

Something that confuses me is the NPK levels i thought the plants were the ones that needed that, but i see people brewing teas according with NPK on the items like worm castings, bat guano, bone meal, blood meal.

The plants need NPK + lots of trace minerals, carbon, and oxygen. The organic foods that you listed are carefully selected so the microbes release the elements/compounds AFTER they digest them. So, you always have to keep the NPK+ balance in mind whether you're growing organically or with synthetics. The only difference is whether the NPK+ is in directly absorbable form or if it has to be bio-processed first.

this thread still going?> think about it kids.

Think about what? This whole thread is chock full of "thinking". It remains the Organic Hydro forum's top subject for a good reason, I reckon.

 

[Terramoto]

Call your brew "tea" or "extract" or whatever you want. The bottom line is that in a pure organic grow you are feeding the microbes -not the plant. These microbes process the materials which are only then directly absorbed by the plant.

sorry man i only got it now,

so...the solution that you make is eaten by the microbes which has the catabolic function like the enzymes on our stomach and by that they'll provide the food that the plant needs. (putting it simple) so why wouldnt this work on hydroponics system? i read somewhere that the tea feeds the plant with only one element at a time, thats because of the microbes that are produced? like 12h fungi, 24h bacteria and 36h protozoa and each produces a diff element? So to feed the plant right i had to have 3 brewing reserviors with different tea mix and than mix a small portion of each in the water reservoir?

btw, thanks alot for the patience my head was a bit empty.(missing the high...)

 

[pray4pistils]

so...the solution that you make is eaten by the microbes which has the catabolic function like the enzymes on our stomach and by that they'll provide the food that the plant needs. (putting it simple)

That's putting it perfectly. Yes.

so why wouldnt this work on hydroponics system?

It works perfectly in hydroponics. That's why we're discussing it in this thread.

i read somewhere that the tea feeds the plant with only one element at a time,

No, that is not correct. Tea made with a diverse inoculant (fed with just as broad a spread of organic foods) is an infinitely complex "tonic". It's a living broth that's more similar in composition to what you get outdoors in nature vs. indoors.

like 12h fungi, 24h bacteria and 36h protozoa and each produces a diff element?

That's somewhat true but any complete inoculation is going to involve a multitude of different microbes. I'm talking about all sorts of bacteria, fungus, protozoa, flagellates, arthropods, and nematodes. You can even get viable earthworm eggs. Each life form eats a range of foods available to it. This may include microbial life that can't escape or fight. (Often times this happens when a species goes dormant due to depletion of appropriate food.) Minerals from the food source become part of the consumer OR they are excreted in a form that the plant may be able to absorb. The key to organic growing is sustaining a complete food chain. Here the term "soil/food web" is used. It describes a functional biochemical network that responds to "directions" issued by the roots. These substances (called "exudates") attract sufficient numbers of the right microbes which provide the needed amount of the nutrient that's required to sustain growth. It's all fantastically complex. Synthetics are remarkably simple and crude by comparison.

So to feed the plant right i had to have 3 brewing reserviors with different tea mix and than mix a small portion of each in the water reservoir?

Hellz no. I recommend that you brew in a 5gal bucket (or two) with aeration from a strong air pump and air stone/s. Feed it "good" foods (the usual but also the different). Then, filter it and pour into your main reservoir. Your roots will then bathe in a pool of of delicious homemade soup. There'll be no waiting for the nitrogen cycle to be completed. -room service 24/7/365! (A pure "chem" program is akin to taking multi-vitamins intravenously. That's because the solution is ready for direct absorption. The stomach and intestines are bypassed altogether.)

btw, thanks alot for the patience my head was a bit empty.(missing the high...)

Oh, it's all good, man. Listen to other folks' input about this, too. It may support or differ from my explanations. The facts tend to be sorted out by the end.

 

[asstastic]

sorry man i only got it now,

so...the solution that you make is eaten by the microbes which has the catabolic function like the enzymes on our stomach and by that they'll provide the food that the plant needs. (putting it simple) so why wouldnt this work on hydroponics system? i read somewhere that the tea feeds the plant with only one element at a time, thats because of the microbes that are produced? like 12h fungi, 24h bacteria and 36h protozoa and each produces a diff element? So to feed the plant right i had to have 3 brewing reserviors with different tea mix and than mix a small portion of each in the water reservoir?

btw, thanks alot for the patience my head was a bit empty.(missing the high...)

but it will work on hydro and i microbes can intermingle so just one reservoir ide have to find the article but it said that mj produces enzymes that tell which microbes to eat what and when so if your res has a viable amount of n and your plant needs n it will pro duce an enzyme that will cause the microbes to deliver n to the plant and if the plant has to much n it will starve off the microbes of that enzyme so they dont kill there host thats why organics dont burn your plant your plant is in control but whith chems your feeding them synthetic versions of what the microbes feed the plant so your in control of when the plant feeds so when the plant has to much say nitrogen its enzymes wont be heard cuz theres no microbes and it will end up burning
so thats where the hybrid comes into play you establish that organic connection between the plant and microbes but when the plant says its had enough npk you can syntheticly boost it just before that point of burning and altogether the plant is getting more npk cuz its not limited by mj's natural cutoff enzyme and it dosen't have enough synthetic to cause ill effects
people need to understand that simple fact and nutes will become a breze weither your pushing them to the max or just trying to keep them alive

:jawdrop:


thats us all celebrating cuz its so easy
(some people are celebrating a little to hard though)

 

[pray4pistils]

you establish that organic connection between the plant and microbes but when the plant says its had enough npk you can syntheticly boost it just before that point of burning and altogether the plant is getting more npk cuz its not limited by mj's natural cutoff enzyme and it doesn't have enough synthetic to cause ill effects

We're 100% on the same page up to this point. Some of what you said in the quote above might end up being true, but I'm not saying it is. For example, I'm not convinced that the exudate/microbial part of the communication loop is really there. (If it is, I suspect that it's completely confused and overshadowed by our meddling.) In other words I'm not sure if the full web is functional in the hybrid nutrition technique. Nature works with far more finesse and grace than our clumsy hands/ignorant brains can manifest. However, I'm positive that the beneficial microbes can prosper and then dominate the nasties. That's even in the presence of synthetics (which so many believe will instantly kill the microherd). NOT! Finally, I strongly suspect that the excretions are more complex and powerful than a mere synthetic formula. Then on top of that you can utilize mycorrhizae fungus. The party just don't stop!

The reason why an overall stronger hybrid nute cocktail can be run (with safety) is because synthetic fertz have higher salt indexes (SI) than organic foods. In my case I use about 2/3 salts + organics. The pre-digested organic share delivers nutrients at maybe 1/3 the SI of synthetics. So, let's say I want at hybrid formula that's as strong as 1200ppm worth of synthetic fertilizer. With the hybrid technique I'd cut the synthetics down to hit 800ppm and then add the amount of organics that it takes to add 400ppm of synthetic salts. In this model the organics measure only 1/3 the SI of that 400ppm = 133ppm. The end result is 800ppm (synthetics) + 133ppm (organics) = a full strength mix at only 933ppm (~22% lower total salinity).

Here is a list of some common Organic and Inorganic fertilizers' SI:

Sodium nitrate - 100
Potassium Sulfate- 43 (potash)
Calcium Sulfate - 8 (gypsum)
Manure salts - 92
Seabird guano - 43
Feather meal - 1.4
Bone meal - 1.8
Blood meal - 2.8
Meat and bone meal - 3.9
Ammonia - 47
Ammonium sulfate - 68
Urea -74
Mono-potassium phosphate - 9
Potassium chloride - 120
Potassium sulfate - 43
Calcium nitrate - 55
Super phosphate - 10
Ammonium phosphate - 32

Note: Manure salts are the water soluble salts present in manure. Manures commonly contain 4 to 5% soluble salts (dry weight basis) and may run as high as 10%. You can't measure the EC of the manure itself, so the salts have to be dissolved in water at the appropriate concentration for comparison.

At this point I can grow my finicky sativa and a heavy-feeding indica right next to each other and they're both stoked. I can also run a shorter-period conventional flush or switch to full organics and feed right to the end. Maybe the last third of the grow could be done best with pure organics? I dunno. That's the sorta thing I'd love to see this thread look into.

Rock ON.

 

[Rednick]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make Asstastic????

????

 

[PetFlora]

How close to organic is this?

How close to organic is this?

My system is high pressure AERO (>50psi. Mine is around 100psi)

I have been using either Botanicare PBP series or FF Grow Big + BigBloom, toss in 2-3 tbs FulPower fulvic acid, and 2-3 tbs of Neptune Harvest Seedweed Plant Food per 6 gallons to 8-900ppm in bloom.

I have a 6" net pot in my rez filled with lava rock, plus an inline 200 mesh filter. Clogging is not an issue.

No nutes remain in the root chamber

Plants receive 2 second feedings every 9 minutes 24/7

The atomized nutz mist falls and attaches to the microbes on the roots. The roots respond by growing differently than any hydro, or low pressure system. See photo below.

The roots never get beyond moistened- allows them to eat the nutes without being bombarded by nutes they cannot process at that time, and that overwets them. This method keeps them hungry, and healthy.

Note the roots are airy and loaded with fuzzies that substantially increases the amount of nutes that can be taken in. As you can see from my root pic, there are plenty of sites for the micos to attach and establish themselves.




I do not recycle the bloom nutes- D2W.

Next grow I plan on combining Neptune Harvest Fish Food (hydrolyzed) and Seaweed Plant Food, maybe hand spray the nutes withWhite Shark once a week. Anybody? In bloom, I will add FF BigBloom.

 

[asstastic]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make Asstastic????

????

i wasent trying to make a point i was explaning to terramoto that microbes can intermingle in a single rez and then i simply stated an article i read the other day about microbes and mj having a connection with one and another and then i stated how that was relevent to the hybrid theory
hope you under stand that

 

[Terramoto]

i found this thread you probably already read it but i found it interesting
http://boards.cannabis.com/advanced...eneficial-microbe-compatability-question.html

 

[asstastic]

everyone should read that and read it good it explains everything i was saying and a hole lot more
i think it should be coppied and it should have its own thread here at ic mag
terramoto if you dont wana post all that i will

 

[Terramoto]

you post it, im still learning ppl might have doubts and you know more and im not as active as i wish for in forums

 

[Terramoto]

my only doubt now is i dunno where to start to start feeding my plants, the solution mix how it works?

 

[Rednick]

my only doubt now is i dunno where to start to start feeding my plants, the solution mix how it works?

Start with a basic NPK feeding schedule...
Wait to get fancy with your own teas and compost until you understand the principles more thoroughly.

KISS: Keep It Simple Stoner.

 

[Terramoto]

but i dont find any nutes here where i live thats why i wanted to go all natural cause i have no other choice :\

 

[asstastic]

but i dont find any nutes here where i live thats why i wanted to go all natural cause i have no other choice :\

do you have fish emulsion and ewc and alfalfa meal and blood meal and stuff were you live
if not what organic stuff have you been able to find make a list and im sure these fine people can help you whith what does what

 

[Rednick]

Do you have a natural foods store?
Those places, while expensive, offer a plethra of organic grains and extracts.

Remember, there are a thousand different ways to source your materials, if you look hard enough you will be rewarded.

The key is to start off knowing what you are looking for, then work your way back from there. Find ALL the SYNONYMS for your given ingredient!

Example: Calcium Carbonate is commonly sold as chicken scratch supplement, AKA crushed Oyster shells.

Do you know any farmers/ranchers? Can you meet and greet any? They tend to have all sorts of byproducts of their production that would work great for growing a plant, not to mention the huge compost pile you could make.
Argricultural businesses, production businesses that use raw materials, breweries.

One man gathers what another man spills.