Coco plant has me stumped...

[wordtree]

High yall...I got a couple things going under my 600w digi HPS now, one strain is this highend x ogk from clone. All 3 clones seem to be showing me the same issue...the rest of the plants in the tent are doing fine.
They are in 3gal pots full of pure canna coco, fed canna coco A+B and a little bit of rhizo and a couple drops of calmag+ (not even sure on whether to use the calmag+ really, have heard so much conflicting info even from canna themselves). Last feed was 750ppm (.5 conversion) at 5.8pH.
My tap water is very clean, 50ppm on average and 6.5ph out of the line.

Here is what they look like a couple weeks into veg, it seems as if the new growth is mostly affected. I was thinking iron, or even zinc def. since I see some strap leaves near the bottom of the plant that are coming up with no serrations. The meristem and most petioles have turned a fairly dark reddish purple, these plants are the only ones showing that characteristic. The top growth is now this shade of yellow, prior to today it was more of a fluorescent green with dark veins and dark leaf tips near the margins.

If anyone can identify this problem and its solution, I would be most highly indebted to you. Any other pictures or information you require, I will be happy to provide!

 

[mullray]

CANNA cal mag (buffer) their bagged coco prior to sale wordtree so stop with the cal mag. They're showing what looks like an N deficiency (N is highly mobile and its deficiency shows in new growth) so hit them with a foliar spray to compensate for now and they should come good. Perhaps raise the lights to gently help them along also.

 

[wordtree]

I don't run much calmag+ at all, usually just 50-100ppm worth. I do this because I have read that canna coco and a+b are designed for poor water sources and/or a starting water ec of .2.
Do you think it is as simple as the plants being hungry for N? They are getting 700+ppm every watering...how does an N def. explain the strapleaves/lack of serrations on some new lower leaves?
Thank you for your input, mate!

 

[mullray]

Give us a run down of all your environmental conditions (daytime temp min max/night time temp min max, RH, night time temps). It's all relative but at this point the most obvious thing is an N deficiency. Coco locks in Ca and that's why coco nutes contain higher Ca levels than standard nutes. prob is, hard water is hard because of Ca and Mg so the problems become far more complex than just simple and obvious answers quite often. What you're seeing is a N deficiency at this point so foliar feeding is a quick fix to the problem. Most importantly, stop with the additional cal mag - it's already done. Bring your environment into check if it already isn't. Too often new growers are looking for answers in the way of feed deficiencies when the real problems lie in the environmental parameters.

 

[Pure.Dope]

This is most definitely not an N def. I'm sorry I can't tell you the solution but its not that.

You will get a bit better info if you fill out the form.

Possibly zinc.

 

[grimweeder]

i grow in coco to an have experienced similar problems, i never found out the exact cause but from wot i figure it was down to nute lockout or sumthing similar causing deficiencies.
i found a good flush through with water then a good feed a couple days later usually helps them to recover.
the coco a/b nutes seems to be very heavy in salts an if you feed too much or too often an especially if temps drop down too low it seems that no matter how much u feed them they still look under fed an deficient, im asuming salt builds up in the stalks preventing nutes from gettin to it. or something like that.
defo looks jus like wot ive had recently tho.
i think if you continue to feed the problem will get worse an spread to the whole plant in time it will effect the plants vigour, growth an overall yeild, my plants always survive but the ones that never recovered or not fully ended up yeilding like 10 grams each plant an looked a right state with all yellow broken up leaves an shit.
try wot i said an flush very well, leave for a couple days to absorb water an clear out the the plants system then feed them lightly/normal feed an see if they recover, it should sort itself out then, i tried adding stuff an doing other things an it made them worse.

 

[OrganicMonkey]

Looks like N deficiency, I wouldn't folair spray that is a bit risky on a tiny problem to fix and a tiny plant at that.

 

[wordtree]

(this is not my first rodeo, I think the environment is spot on 40rh 70F in there, maybe the rootzone is a little colder)
Today only the upper portion of the meristem and upper petioles(main stem and topmost leaf stems) are purpled...the bottom 2/3rds of the plant is green and relatively healthy. I really don't see it being N def. since only the top new growth is affected and they are not consuming lower foliage. Not sure what else it could be. As I said, only these 3 plants out of 12 are affected. I gave a foliar of Rhizotonic this morning as a little stress reliever.
New pics in a bit, I will snap ones of all 3.

I always water to runoff, and salt buildup shouldn't be an issue. I am hoping they will just keep throwin roots and get more stable...seems to be either a nute hog or too sensitive.

 

[grimweeder]

as i ve said it looks exactly like wot ive had the past couple of grows, and we are using the same brand of stuff i think, canna coco and canna coco a/b nutes so maybe its something to do with either of them, i dunno tho, all i know is a good flush an then a feed helped them recover,
carrying on feeding as usual without a good flush just made them worse.

anyway goodluck an hope u get it sorted.

 

[wordtree]

as i ve said it looks exactly like wot ive had the past couple of grows, and we are using the same brand of stuff i think, canna coco and canna coco a/b nutes so maybe its something to do with either of them, i dunno tho, all i know is a good flush an then a feed helped them recover,
carrying on feeding as usual without a good flush just made them worse.

anyway goodluck an hope u get it sorted.

thanks for you input mate. What is your base water quality in terms of pH and softness/hardness in ppm?
Did you flush with straight water and then water again immediately after with a weaker solution? As far as I know it's inadvisable to give plants in coco straight water.

 

[Flying High]

I think you are on to something regarding the Iron. I'm thinking high ph in medium, maybe because of underdeveloped root-mass in relation to pot size/water use/drainage.

I have been having consistently better results since switching to just coco with perlite or coco chips(currently testing) no pre-mixed stuff. Also, I use small pots and transplant a week before flower into #2 or #3 pots. The last time I put clones into #3 pots, they seemed to stall for two weeks before really taking off; probably my poor technique...

I'm with you on not flushing coco. That never worked for me.

I use H&G Aqua Flakes in an ebb/flow system.

Hope you get it sorted.
H

 

[wordtree]

at this point I reckon I won't feed/water them for the next 2 days and see what happens.
perhaps the next watering will be a little warmer water for those plants, and ph 5.5 or 5.6 as opposed to 5.8. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Flying High]

Good idea to watch water temp.

I guess I am coming from a hydro mindset when I think to flood more often in order to achieve tighter control of the root environment. Probably different with top-watering/hand-watering? Sometimes it seems like letting thinks dry out too much between floods causes ph swings in my reservoirs, normally up. No science, just an observation.

H

 

[UpInTheCut]

too much Cal/Mag locks out other nutes like zinc, iron,N etc.. Coco also soaks up and stores Cal. like a sponge.
Are you adding it to every watering/feeding? I have the same tap water as you 50-60ppm 6.5 out of the tap and I've NEVER added cal/mag to anything. No problems
Just my 2 cents
-UpInTheCut

 

[wordtree]

STRAIGHT FROM CANNA THEMSELVES:
'WATER SOURCE: We design our Canna products for less than perfect water. Also, nutrients work best with some pH controls in the water especially Calcium. However, we advise using a source water that is about 0.2 EC or just below 200 ppm with most of this coming from Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg). This is important, and the level of Ca is important because both pH and minor elements can be effected by this mineral.

CALCIUM: Nutrients are built, and plants will develop based on ratio's of elements to each other with the element that is in shorter supply being the limiting agent for plant development.

Ca in high amounts will lock out Potassium (K). It also affects Phosphorous (P) availability resulting in reduced energy. Mixing Ca and PK in high enough amounts will result in the formation of percipitates (clouding). Many times the CA is the trigger.

"Cal Mag Plus" and "MagiCal" has other things in it... especially Iron, Nitrogen and another group they do not identify, including sulfur.
Again, these can cause additional ratio and lock out issues. Both of these products change values and make end prediction tough at best.
Iron in excess will cause toxicity. The proper way to mix if needed is to add it to the source water to achieve roughly 0.2 EC, mix then add the rest.

All our products have more than enough Ca, Mg and everything else to do the job IF the 0.2 EC of mainly Ca and Mg is available in the initial water source... This we are 100% certain of.

This causes a gradual and persistent low Ca condition which would show a difference in the final weight of the plant. There is also another question that can and does go hand-in-hand with this one: poor water relations. Ca and water move with, and are affected by each other... Too much or too little have effects:

If I inhibit water uptake by reducing Ca availability, the roots look fine but water moves slower and so, too, all other minerals.
If I dry out OR over water a plant, even just a little, I will cause the same issue.
If I increase Ca to offset the loss, I get results;
if I overdo the Ca at the beginning to offset a future problem, I get horrble things happening.
From, odd greening patterns on the leaves, strap leaves, spots, browning spots, distortion, etc,

If you are having problems, I suggest your cure most probably lies in bringing the initial EC of the source water to 0.2, go back to the normal feed chart, water consistantly (same point of dryness) and at the right time (50% of water applied is used before the next irrigation), never use plain water to flush, keep humidity 50 - 60% day and below 80% at dark.'

 

[2Lazy]

I personally used a TON of Cal-Mag+ with Canna Coco A & B and my plants loved life, like really, really loved it.

These are my plants. Taller ones are around 5 weeks, some are 4 weeks. DNA Genetics OG18xskunk, Kandy Kush Skunk, and my own BC Big Bud x G13/Hashplant (the obvious indica). I used 15ml of A and 15ml of B and 15ml of Cal-Mag+ in RO water. I didn't have any rhizotonic this time around, but would have used it as suggested on their website. Now in week 7 of a 10 week flowering I have dialed back the cal-mag+ to about 10ml per gallon to cut down on the extra nitrogen it has.

New growth going yellow is indicative of two primary deficiencies. Iron and Zinc. My guess here is iron based on the healthy green veins and the age of the plant. My local Hydroponics store owner has several "test" grows, one of which was a coco grow. They had all kinds of stuff, tomatoes, peppers, chard, and there was a noticeable difference between them. The grower there explained to me that the new growth was suffering on some of the plants as they had stopped using Cal-Mag+ on them and had switched to a cal-mag only supplement. What the plants needed (especially the peppers) was iron. The plants that got that extra plus were lush and green and happy.

When I went coco I did a lot of research:

Some coirs have been chemically treated, this is most often the case with loose pre-hydrated varieties versus compressed blocks. The treatment has been done to satisfy the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the growing media. As a refresher, “cations” are positively charged ions, such as Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, and Potassium. This means that the growing media will hold these ions in a matrix, releasing them as required by plants. There is one slight drawback to this. Until the cation exchange capacity of the growing media is filled, the growing media may hold positively charged nutrient ions, most notably calcium, in reserve, making them less available to plants. However, the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the coir media is quickly filled, and actually assists calcium absorption in the crop cycle. To ensure optimum availability of all nutrients, supply additional calcium during the first week of growth or during the hydrating process of the coconut coir. Calcium supplement products are ideal for this. Some nutrients specifically formulated for coco tend to have elevated levels of calcium and magnesium while having lower levels of nitrogen.

http://www.progressive-growth.com/article-coco-coir.php

Take a look at the link, it really is good info on what you need to know behind the science of coco has a superior media. Bottom line though, if it's nitrogen, Cal-Mag+ is 2-0-0 anyway, so it's going to help. Add more of it to your mix and I bet you see good results

 

[Pursie]

hey i had this issue with younguns in coco, nice n healthy n rooted but i noticed once i repotted thy started yellowing like urs, im sure i had the pot too wet whn i repotted. didnt really ever dry or seem like drying, roots drowned, eventually i pulled thm to see roots were had it. i now repot in a drier - wet/charge coco night before and leave in grwroom and the upt the rooted cuts into smaller pot(1ltr) just to get roots full n ready and keep watering to minimal. low ec,rhizo n phd tap water, wrks alot better for me.oh n let coco dry a little -

 

[rastaman.fb]

ive been having this same problem with GHS Trainwreck.

 

[wordtree]

here is what she looks like today, she is the worst looking of the 3 clones. The stem and petiole purpling seems to have diminished a little and is restricted to the upper part of the plant as you can see.
is it too much calmag+ or is it too little or is it something else entirely? this thread has had several viewpoints...don't be afraid to chime in!

 

[RetroGrow]

Try adjusting your PH a bit lower, like 5.5. Sometimes I get similar problems in coco, and it's usually PH related. Nice to have a varying range of PH, 5.5-5.8, to prevent lockouts. Also, check your PH pen. Mine was off by .3, and it made a big difference. Instead of giving them 5.5, they were getting 5.2. Definitely does not look like N deficiency. Rest of the plant is too green.