Primordial Seeds??

[festivus]

Would love to see conclusive evidence

What makes you doubt rogue pollen?

At this point, I haven't seen anything that would be conclusive. That's why I asked the question. The particular preflower/turned seed in the photo had white pistils for nearly the entire grow. The seed was dark, but smaller than normal. I've found that with the light and nutes, the seeds I do produce get huge if left longer than a month.

I doubt rogue pollen because it's happened so many times in the same spot on the mainstem without any other places being fertilized. This plant was a reveg, and continued to throw hairs the whole time it was in veg. There were numerous locations a rogue pollen grain could have fertilized, but didn't.

I've had the same thing happen in a sealed grow, where no outside air entered the cabinet. Logic says you can't have a seed without male pollen, but something else is going on here.

 

[TexasToker]

I am really confused. A cannabis plant needs a male and female...end of story. That is what puts the plant into the Dioecious group.

That boils down to the basic fact that individuals of the species are either androecious (male) or gynoecious (female). Dioecious species cannot self-fertilize.

Because cannabis is such a sweet plant, it can be considered a subdioecious species which means it can produce a monoecious (gyno* or andro* hermie) plant.

That still means it needs the stamen and pistil of a male and female. That has been true since 3rd century BC when the Chinese studied it's structures and development.

Why are you 100% sure that no pollen entered your room, thereby changing the history of the plant?

I am not trying to start an argument, I am just basing all of my information on historical and biological facts.

 

[festivus]

You're right TT. When this happens, I think it's stray pollen.
But the odds of a single grain of pollen, carried into my grow, and falling directly on the primordial preflower's location on the main stem are astronomical. And the odds of that scenerio happening not just once, but several times in the same location?? That's got me curious!

 

[jyme]

what if its not repoducing? what if its somthing entirely differnt?yes its a seed and yes it could be a stray grain of pollen most likly.but if it did double its self?i mean the plant is a very agressive species.it is an evolving plant.look at all the strains out there and all the differnt things we are doing to them in nature they cluster and pollonation is inevedable!but now we are causing them to change.more and more seedless crops and this wouldnt matter the plants can not know this.lol.but in most cases it is coming from reveged plants they have done lived the cycle and dint get pollanated then get reveged and then clones are tooken and flowered and maybe this sets off somthing in the genetics a seed it doubles its self in hope of continuing its genetis the next year.i have had this happen and have got lbs with one seed that was completly black and covered in reison the seed was sprouted and was as if i took a clone the same plant.

 

[festivus]

You bring up some interesting points jyme. It wouldn't surprise me a bit that's what is happening.

What an amazing plant! And I think it has many more secrets we don't understand yet.

 

[TroubleGuy]

I've had this happen every harvest - not to every plant, but to at least one plant in each harvest. That's also not accounting for the possibility that other people smoking the bud may have found one and not mentioned it to me. My grows are clean and the environment is kept perfect. The seed is usually in the middle of a dense bud from near the top of the plant.

I always wondered how it happened, because I never found a single male flower or even a nanner anywhere. Even if I did how would pollen get into the middle of an already thick bud and make only one seed? There weren't any seeds on the outsides of the bud, and that tells me there was no pollen floating around the room.

When I grew a couple of the seeds out they all turned into some of the most resilient plants I've ever grown. One came from a pretty lanky Medicine Man cut and when grown out, turned into a strong, pest and heat resistant plant. It also possessed that "hybrid vigor" trait even though I'm sure it wasn't a "hybrid" at all - it grew 2x as fast as a cut from the original plant. The resulting bud tasted, smelled, and smoked exactly like the original plant the seed came from, but the plant from that seed was stronger all around.

I believe you might on to something here.

 

[alflud]

Interesting stuff Troubleguy. Very interesting stuff. I'll definitely be watching out for these seeds every grow from now on. No seeds on the outside of the bud you say? That certainly gives weight to the idea that pollen has no role to play in the production of these seeds. Yeah, yeah, I know it goes against the "laws" of whatever it's called as we know them but still ... there's always room for discovery. The middle of a dense bud from near the top you say? So it wasn't from the initial calyx at the internode?

 

[TroubleGuy]

Yeah, yeah, I know it goes against the "laws" of whatever it's called as we know them but still ... there's always room for discovery. The middle of a dense bud from near the top you say? So it wasn't from the initial calyx at the internode?

It definitely does go against the "laws" or "facts" people know today but like someone else stated - we used to think the world was flat and people who thought otherwise were crazy. Nothing in science is really a fact, and any good scientist will agree. It's just theory based on what we know and the evidence that supports it. Just because we believe it to be true today doesn't mean it's fact, it just means we might not have a proper understanding of it - for example, not long ago people with bipolar disorder were thought to have 2 personalities (think "Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde"), when really it's just a chemical imbalance in the brain, not 2 seperate personalities. But we didn't know that until scientific advances were made and we learned enough about it to better understand what was going on.

But yes, the Medicine Man seed I mentioned above was found when I was pulling apart one of the top buds from a SOG grow - it was a little smaller than a pepsi can and very dense because of the way it was grown. Also, no additives were used, just organic nutrients. I really wish I would have kept my grow journal pictures up, because there were pictures of the resulting plant in there.

Someone referred to those unexplainable single seeds as "gold" in a previous reply and I have to say I agree.

I'll keep an eye out for more of this on my next harvest which is a couple months away. If I find any I'll grow them out and see if I have the same results I had last time, and I'll definitely take pictures if I find one so the whole process is documented - from finding the seed to flowering the plant (or clones of the plant) that grows from it.

Another interesting note, a friend of mine used to have this happen to him too, but he never did anything with the seeds he found. Neither of us ever re-vegged a plant, so I don't believe this is exclusive to re-vegged plants.

A possible explanation someone posted in a previous reply is a male flower forming inside a bud with just enough pollen (or room for the pollen to escape) to pollinate the nearest pistil which would also be inside the bud. I really wouldn't be surprised if such seed formation is a survival mechanism of the plant that's just been overlooked.

I hope I find another one in my upcoming crop, I'd like to grow them out every time I find one and see if they're ALL "gold" or if maybe I've just been lucky enough to get primo genetics from the couple I've grown out so far.

Also, for the skeptics: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=166082 - This is new and was overlooked by researchers to the point they threw out their first test results. They didn't even consider that it was an overlooked/undiscovered technique until they got the same results the 2nd time they did it! I'm anxious to see exactly what they did to get those results.

 

[alflud]

Ahhh, so it is possible for a plant to reproduce with genes from only one parent - i.e. itself. If it's possible for humans to bring this about then it's possible that the plants can bring it about themselves too. That's great news. Perhaps what Jyme is talking about above isn't so far out either. He says that plants 'can't know' that they're counterparts are having less and less seeded cycles but maybe they do. Maybe that how come your plants produced these seeds without ever being re-veged. There's a theory in science out there about Morphological Fields. It's basically a theory that says that all information about a species is 'stored' in some sort of field and that this information is immediately available to all members of that species. It also postulates that information can flow from one field to another that this might be a possible explanation for how animals 'know' how to flee from an incoming tsunami. The fish first learn of the disturbance but the information spreads through the fields and into the dog field say. Hence the barking dogs. But anyway, perhaps the fact that so many cannabis plants are no being grown without getting the chance to produce seed has affected the species as a whole. It may be that this information has been disseminated throughout the species and now plants are adapting to this new situation whenever they find themselves in it - the sterile (as far as pollen is concerned) environment of a growroom.