.
1200W CT SCROG... a.k.a. A Comedy of Errors... a.k.a. My Life
- Thread starter ImaginaryFriend
- Start date
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Hey IF, it sounds like you know most of what you did wrong, and being a total newb to hydro I won't try to screw you up more. I can comiserate though. Just started my first hydro grow. Everything is WAY different and happens WAY WAY faster... Good luck and I'm sure someone will pop in and help you.
damn i want to see those pics but when i click on them i couldnt see anything, did you set ;em to private?
Started New Album
Started New Album
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Started New Album
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secondtry has my mind spinning...
secondtry has my mind spinning...
I have long held that it is less the quantity of light that matters... and more the quality.
My speculation on this:
Specific chemical reactions require or release specific quantum of energy. Photosynthetic reactions absorb specific photons to create specific chemical chains. Different chemical chains, we might speculate, require different photons (or wavelengths) to excite the various growth components at a molecular level to synthesize new (more complex) chemical chains... For this reason, as the plant changes through different phases of growth, generating different chemicals, there may be a shift in demand with regard to the light spectrum.
So I'm reading some of secondtry's posts... and it seems clear that my initial statement--i.e. light quality of primary importance--is something that he has a great interest in... So I read on... And he describes his ideal photo-periods (based on some non-24 hour cycles) that have always been an untested interest of mine.
Somewhere in the middle of this ongoing HID vs. LED discussion, he starts talking about the difference between relative room humidity (RH) and VHsomething or other. And he states that his ideal temps are an ambient air temp of 86 degrees, with a leaf surface temp of about 84... and an RH of about 70%.
And my brain stops. RH of 70%?
I've been thinking of my plants like a sponge, or a wick rather than a living breathing organism. I figure I'll just decrease humidity to increase transpiration. Until this post reminds me that lowering the humidity will just f'n stimulate a goddamn drought response.
So... without notes, 'cause I'm too dumb to keep them... lets look back.
I'm running 1200W HPS. Outdoor temps are unseasonably warm. Room temps start spiking into the mid-nineties, and humidity is through the roof. Sweating-your-face-off kind of humid. Slippery-inner-thigh kind of humid. Over 70% RH kind of humid.
So I run off and buy a f'n massive portable air conditioner (which uses the evaporative coolant of what would be condensate to exchange heat from the the compressor coils), break out the old saw and cobble together an intake/output line for this bad boy and set it up. Temps drop.
And flowering shows signs of starting. Yay. But something's wrong. Oh--my misdiagnosed Mag/Cal deficiency rears it's ugly little head.
So I start dumping in N to the reservoir.
And I realize that I've now I've got a g'd energy draw that's as much as my lights. So I think, well, better get some cool tubes for this bitch and start drawing off some of this heat directly. Don't want to be chucking out 1100W into air conditioning all day long...
Of course, now I've got to install some kind of fan (220cfm Panasonic Whisper inline--super f'n quiet), and I've only got one output hole, so it's ducting and baffles and controllers and here we go. No worries about the money. I'm so damn deep into this grow that there's no hope for me other than finishing it. Maybe if I throw every dollar I have at it, something good might happen. The girls have food to get through this... and, well, I don't eat so much anyway.
So it's working. Mechanically, anyway. I can control temps down to 83-86 max with a relative humidity between 32-45%. With the C02 generator keeping a steady 1350ish in the room.
And I add in some mag/cal. And that looks better.
Oh, and I introduced a goddamn windstorm in there. Two free standing 'industrial' oscillating fans. On pointed above the canopy and just generally circulating the air, and the other on an extra cycle timer pushing air through the canopy directly for about 3-4 minutes, and then giving it all a rest for about 10.
But everything look, well, like shit. Dry. Great color (relatively speaking) in the new growth... but not nearly enough of it. And everything looks brittle.
Why?
Well... who knows?
Candidates:
1. Nutrient lock up.
2. Stomata closed in drought response.
So... I killed the AC and increased the draw through the cool tubes. Temps are climbing. Humidity is not. Readjusted the fans. We'll see.
Oh... and all of my freshly calibrated pH meters disagree with one another.
Preflood pH 6.12 (5.85 I think when I went to bed) ppm 1261
Post flood pH 6.02 1580ppm
2.5 gal RO addback pH 6.02 1152ppm.
Sooo... not a lot of nutrients being absorbed, huh bub?
Ambient room temp: 88 degrees/ 35%RH
Now what?
secondtry has my mind spinning...
I have long held that it is less the quantity of light that matters... and more the quality.
My speculation on this:
Specific chemical reactions require or release specific quantum of energy. Photosynthetic reactions absorb specific photons to create specific chemical chains. Different chemical chains, we might speculate, require different photons (or wavelengths) to excite the various growth components at a molecular level to synthesize new (more complex) chemical chains... For this reason, as the plant changes through different phases of growth, generating different chemicals, there may be a shift in demand with regard to the light spectrum.
So I'm reading some of secondtry's posts... and it seems clear that my initial statement--i.e. light quality of primary importance--is something that he has a great interest in... So I read on... And he describes his ideal photo-periods (based on some non-24 hour cycles) that have always been an untested interest of mine.
Somewhere in the middle of this ongoing HID vs. LED discussion, he starts talking about the difference between relative room humidity (RH) and VHsomething or other. And he states that his ideal temps are an ambient air temp of 86 degrees, with a leaf surface temp of about 84... and an RH of about 70%.
And my brain stops. RH of 70%?
I've been thinking of my plants like a sponge, or a wick rather than a living breathing organism. I figure I'll just decrease humidity to increase transpiration. Until this post reminds me that lowering the humidity will just f'n stimulate a goddamn drought response.
So... without notes, 'cause I'm too dumb to keep them... lets look back.
I'm running 1200W HPS. Outdoor temps are unseasonably warm. Room temps start spiking into the mid-nineties, and humidity is through the roof. Sweating-your-face-off kind of humid. Slippery-inner-thigh kind of humid. Over 70% RH kind of humid.
So I run off and buy a f'n massive portable air conditioner (which uses the evaporative coolant of what would be condensate to exchange heat from the the compressor coils), break out the old saw and cobble together an intake/output line for this bad boy and set it up. Temps drop.
And flowering shows signs of starting. Yay. But something's wrong. Oh--my misdiagnosed Mag/Cal deficiency rears it's ugly little head.
So I start dumping in N to the reservoir.
And I realize that I've now I've got a g'd energy draw that's as much as my lights. So I think, well, better get some cool tubes for this bitch and start drawing off some of this heat directly. Don't want to be chucking out 1100W into air conditioning all day long...
Of course, now I've got to install some kind of fan (220cfm Panasonic Whisper inline--super f'n quiet), and I've only got one output hole, so it's ducting and baffles and controllers and here we go. No worries about the money. I'm so damn deep into this grow that there's no hope for me other than finishing it. Maybe if I throw every dollar I have at it, something good might happen. The girls have food to get through this... and, well, I don't eat so much anyway.
So it's working. Mechanically, anyway. I can control temps down to 83-86 max with a relative humidity between 32-45%. With the C02 generator keeping a steady 1350ish in the room.
And I add in some mag/cal. And that looks better.
Oh, and I introduced a goddamn windstorm in there. Two free standing 'industrial' oscillating fans. On pointed above the canopy and just generally circulating the air, and the other on an extra cycle timer pushing air through the canopy directly for about 3-4 minutes, and then giving it all a rest for about 10.
But everything look, well, like shit. Dry. Great color (relatively speaking) in the new growth... but not nearly enough of it. And everything looks brittle.
Why?
Well... who knows?
Candidates:
1. Nutrient lock up.
2. Stomata closed in drought response.
So... I killed the AC and increased the draw through the cool tubes. Temps are climbing. Humidity is not. Readjusted the fans. We'll see.
Oh... and all of my freshly calibrated pH meters disagree with one another.
Preflood pH 6.12 (5.85 I think when I went to bed) ppm 1261
Post flood pH 6.02 1580ppm
2.5 gal RO addback pH 6.02 1152ppm.
Sooo... not a lot of nutrients being absorbed, huh bub?
Ambient room temp: 88 degrees/ 35%RH
Now what?
I have seen this in 2 of my grows. It might be your roots at least thats what it was for me the roots went to shit. I couldn't tell so I threw everything at em. You have to look at them roots no matter how hard it is. You should also flush and bring the ppms down. Im not sure but some of them pics looked exactly like mine did and I beat my head of the concrete floor for weeks until I pulled em out of the hydroton to find shit ass roots.
Get in there and look if it ain't that then you have some major lock out issues.
Good luck
Get in there and look if it ain't that then you have some major lock out issues.
Good luck
BigGreen...
The you skipped the sad ending to your story. Thanks for that.
Sooo. Lets say I tear apart everything to get at the roots. Would you prune the dead parts back and hope the plant can recover? I think I'm a little late for that... that is, twenty five days into flower... and they need to be cut on a certain day, regardless of their condition. So rehab, regen and start over is out.
I have pulled seven gallons from the system this morning, replaced it with RO and am circulating that. As my RO supplies fill back up, I'll do it again, and again, and again. I'm thinking that I'll try and drop the ppm of the whole system down to 500ish, and start with a fresh flower solution at mid strength.
Let's just pretend it's a nutrient lockout, shall we?
The you skipped the sad ending to your story. Thanks for that.
Sooo. Lets say I tear apart everything to get at the roots. Would you prune the dead parts back and hope the plant can recover? I think I'm a little late for that... that is, twenty five days into flower... and they need to be cut on a certain day, regardless of their condition. So rehab, regen and start over is out.
I have pulled seven gallons from the system this morning, replaced it with RO and am circulating that. As my RO supplies fill back up, I'll do it again, and again, and again. I'm thinking that I'll try and drop the ppm of the whole system down to 500ish, and start with a fresh flower solution at mid strength.
Let's just pretend it's a nutrient lockout, shall we?
Thats what I would do. What conversion are you using .5 or .7. Either way you should still be able to finish em off you just wont yield shit. My sad ending was 24 pots ebb & flo buckets 3k = 1/2#. Thats sad shit I actually lost money there but its all good now. New room new plants new grow and no bull shit.
Check out the current grow in my sig and good luck.
Check out the current grow in my sig and good luck.
BigGreen, What conversion? From EC? Looks like a 0.5 conversion on the meter...
Checked out your journal earlier. Things look like they're off to a good start... More than a little jealous right now...
I ended up siphoning out the buckets, draining the res again, and refilling everything. With the bit of residuals left in the bucket
I added:
40mL Base
40mL Karma
80mL Bloom
20mL Hydroplex
40mL Cal/Mag
pH is reading around 5.80
ppm is reading around 680 (EC 1364)
I've been stripping out the crappiest part of the canopy. Damn, it looks sparse right now... a couple of weeks ago, when I cleaned under the screens, it all dark and shadowy. Now, not so much.
Checked out your journal earlier. Things look like they're off to a good start... More than a little jealous right now...
I ended up siphoning out the buckets, draining the res again, and refilling everything. With the bit of residuals left in the bucket
I added:
40mL Base
40mL Karma
80mL Bloom
20mL Hydroplex
40mL Cal/Mag
pH is reading around 5.80
ppm is reading around 680 (EC 1364)
I've been stripping out the crappiest part of the canopy. Damn, it looks sparse right now... a couple of weeks ago, when I cleaned under the screens, it all dark and shadowy. Now, not so much.
Ya your using .5 conversion. I think your nutes have been way to hot. Unless you have a retarded eater. That could cause all these problem you have lock out, root problems and burned plants. Ease back into it like you are for a few days and try not to get over 900 ppm the rest of the grow.
Good luck
Good luck
I think we're on the same page BG...
Are you on a .7 conversion in your grow? (Just thinking about your feed rates...)
I've drawn everything back... ppms are now running between 800-900 (depending on RO addback) with the .5 conversion.
I chucked in a bunch of bios with a bit of molasses with the last nute addback... hoping they might help with whatever is going on... break down dead organics, increase nute uptake.
Feeding:
1 Base
1 Karma
1.5 Bloom
.3 Hydroplex
.5 Cal/Mag -- But that'll probably be my last solid dose of cal/mag... some peripheral leave are showing a bit of curl to center...
Bunch of bio dust from the local shop--Don't remember the brand and the girls are sleeping.
Glob of backstrap.
Cummonsymbiosis!
I've stripped almost all of the leaves that are 70%-not-green. Thought: if it ain't feeding, it's just casting shade. I'm starting to think of the whole garden as an opportunity to skip first cut and just develop the popcorn.
Who knows.
I mean, I like movies.
And I like popcorn.
I guess.
The up side is that I have the first signs of new growth today. Nothing to get excited about, but it is certainly not as depressing. I guess the only thing left to do is gentle feed for another twenty days, wash, and cut.
I'll post again if anything significant happens... or if I can pull together decent lighting for a shot or two.
Thanks for your help.
Are you on a .7 conversion in your grow? (Just thinking about your feed rates...)
I've drawn everything back... ppms are now running between 800-900 (depending on RO addback) with the .5 conversion.
I chucked in a bunch of bios with a bit of molasses with the last nute addback... hoping they might help with whatever is going on... break down dead organics, increase nute uptake.
Feeding:
1 Base
1 Karma
1.5 Bloom
.3 Hydroplex
.5 Cal/Mag -- But that'll probably be my last solid dose of cal/mag... some peripheral leave are showing a bit of curl to center...
Bunch of bio dust from the local shop--Don't remember the brand and the girls are sleeping.
Glob of backstrap.
Cummonsymbiosis!
I've stripped almost all of the leaves that are 70%-not-green. Thought: if it ain't feeding, it's just casting shade. I'm starting to think of the whole garden as an opportunity to skip first cut and just develop the popcorn.
Who knows.
I mean, I like movies.
And I like popcorn.
I guess.
The up side is that I have the first signs of new growth today. Nothing to get excited about, but it is certainly not as depressing. I guess the only thing left to do is gentle feed for another twenty days, wash, and cut.
I'll post again if anything significant happens... or if I can pull together decent lighting for a shot or two.
Thanks for your help.
Last edited:
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Quality was adequate, if not pretty.
Flowers dried extremely quickly, and the buds were jarred without a lot of moisture. Three weeks into the cure, everything has a pleasant odor... if a bit understated. On the upside, there were no problems with excess humidity with all the scary things that that can imply.
The SweetTooth finished with a remarkable amount of resin on stems between flower sites. The ... STs had dramatically different growth patterns, from short and bushy to long single stalks with virtually no side branching.
The overall aesthetics, however, did not compare to the fragrance of the FLO. That said, ... selected females from a 12 pack versus an established cut of known quality would probably come up short.
Yields were predictably and painfully low...
Trimming for every minor bit of flower material was painful.
Root balls were in deplorable shape at the end.
Who knows what could have happened if I hadn't killed the roots...
Oh, well. Moving on...
EDIT 9/12/2010: NOW I BELIEVE THAT THIS FAILURE WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE TOXICITY INHERENT IN PLUMBING MY RETURN LINES WITH N-G-W.COM'S TOXIC 1/2 INCH BLUE PIPE. SEE THIS THREAD: Hydroponic specific hose is toxic to plants
Flowers dried extremely quickly, and the buds were jarred without a lot of moisture. Three weeks into the cure, everything has a pleasant odor... if a bit understated. On the upside, there were no problems with excess humidity with all the scary things that that can imply.
The SweetTooth finished with a remarkable amount of resin on stems between flower sites. The ... STs had dramatically different growth patterns, from short and bushy to long single stalks with virtually no side branching.
The overall aesthetics, however, did not compare to the fragrance of the FLO. That said, ... selected females from a 12 pack versus an established cut of known quality would probably come up short.
Yields were predictably and painfully low...
Trimming for every minor bit of flower material was painful.
Root balls were in deplorable shape at the end.
Who knows what could have happened if I hadn't killed the roots...
Oh, well. Moving on...
EDIT 9/12/2010: NOW I BELIEVE THAT THIS FAILURE WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE TOXICITY INHERENT IN PLUMBING MY RETURN LINES WITH N-G-W.COM'S TOXIC 1/2 INCH BLUE PIPE. SEE THIS THREAD: Hydroponic specific hose is toxic to plants
