What's this? What's the prognosis?

[Bass Akwards]

We recently sprouted some "name brand" commercial seeds. It's the first time we've used any but homemade or gifted genetics in well over a decade. But, we were curious what progress, if any, the rest of the breeding community has made in the interim.

Most of this well-known breeders stock is drawn from a few closely related lines. Of the two packs sprouted, 19 out of twenty made it "up and green". Two of those are runts, and of the remaining 17, seven have "bent" or "slightly twisted" leaves.

We weren't surprised to see this, but in such a small sample it does raise an eyebrow. At least one other heavily inbred strain, Blueberry, is notorious for showing similar leaf distortions, and we fully expect them to "grow out of it". ( We intend to track & compare them to their siblings. )

The plant that prompts this post, however, has a trait we've never seen. One of the runts has 3 rather than two initial leaves. There are three rounded sepal leaves that emerged, and after that, three "true" leaves arranged symmetrically.

Have you ever seen this growth pattern?

What's the botanical name for the condition?

What does it tell us about the plant, and its' potential?

 

[regalizeit]

removed

 

[kopite]

as stated its a form of whorled phyllotaxy, it will stay like that throughout its life....

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...EwAzgK#v=onepage&q=whorled phyllotaxy&f=false

 

[Snype]

This has happened to me about 3 times and all 3 times it was the worst pheno of the crops. Maybe yours will be different. Keep us posted on how it goes. I'm really interested about this!

 

[Bass Akwards]

Runt-O-Rama

Runt-O-Rama

This has happened to me about 3 times and all 3 times it was the worst pheno of the crops. Maybe yours will be different. Keep us posted on how it goes. I'm really interested about this!

We agree, chances are slim it has other "redeeming qualities".

The triangular symmetry is certainly curious though.

It's 1/4 the size of its' siblings, and 1/2 the size of the other runt.

Upon further review, 11 out of 17 seedlings have bent or wrinkled leaves.

We'll try for visuals ... but it might take a while.

 

[cannavore]

Hi Bass. I noticed this on a bogbubble seedling and came across this older thread when looking up on it. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=5975

There was a quote from BOG on pg.2 giving his opinion on this trait in his work.

This growing variation is not a mutation in my opinion. Since it happens usually the same way it seems odd to me that it is a random mutation. Some say they are polyploids with duplicate sets of chromasomes and some say that plants with double or triple sets of chromosomes are super. Ya know there are really no absolutes in life?

I have had triples as I call them that stayed very vigorous through flowering and the trait made the plant more compact with a great yield. I don't say this is usually the case but any plant that seems to grow well is worth checking out before chucking anyways.

This isn't a trait I breed for or try to eliminate but my strains do it a lot. Perhaps it is a genetic defect in the bubblegum used in everything I have or perhaps it is just a sign of the growers good karma. I say, "don't believe me but see for yourself".

They can be just fine... BOG

I would agree with BOG that there are some specimens showing this trait that are worth checking out, and I would also agree with Snype that some are not very good. Much like anything we never know until we give it a go. Snype do you recall if there were any similarities in the three specimens you encountered that were not suitable to your tastes? Do you remember what about them you didn't care for, or even possibly the genetics? Your experiences are appreciated thank you. This is interesting indeed. Bass did I read right and you noticed this on blueberry genetics or were you just making a comparison?

 

[kopite]

This growing variation is not a mutation in my opinion. Since it happens usually the same way it seems odd to me that it is a random mutation. Some say they are polyploids with duplicate sets of chromasomes and some say that plants with double or triple sets of chromosomes are super. Ya know there are really no absolutes in life?

I have had triples as I call them that stayed very vigorous through flowering and the trait made the plant more compact with a great yield. I don't say this is usually the case but any plant that seems to grow well is worth checking out before chucking anyways.

This isn't a trait I breed for or try to eliminate but my strains do it a lot. Perhaps it is a genetic defect in the bubblegum used in everything I have or perhaps it is just a sign of the growers good karma. I say, "don't believe me but see for yourself".

They can be just fine... BOG

They are not friggin Polyploids thats a fact, chromosomes aren't what you see with your eyes(unless you are in a lab etc) and have no relation to the leaf set.... ie because you see 3 leaf sets it doesn't mean theres 3 sets of chromosomes.

Re: Blueberry & Colchicine

I think its alledged that OPT was given the Colchicine treatment, seems to make sense with regards to mutants and OPT related plants.

 

[Bass Akwards]

"Twisted" genetics ...

"Twisted" genetics ...

Bass did I read right and you noticed this on blueberry genetics or were you just making a comparison?

We saw the "wrinkle leaf" trait on Blueberry plants several years ago, and the same trait has been mentioned in relation to that strain several times elsewhere.

Have no idea what OPT is, but we agree that this is probably not a Colchicine or polyploid related development originating with the breeder. The entire Colchicine thing is a dead-end anyway. The miniscule number of surviving plants are mostly runts, and the even smaller number that actually grow don't retain the polyploid trait when reproduced.

 

[kopite]

Have no idea what OPT is, but we agree that this is probably not a Colchicine or polyploid related development originating with the breeder. The entire Colchicine thing is a dead-end anyway. The miniscule number of surviving plants are mostly runts, and the even smaller number that actually grow don't retain the polyploid trait when reproduced.

OPT is oregon purple thai... and the wrinkle is def related to it. (though the whorl isn't)

Kopite

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

A.C.Clark called it whorled phylotaxy. I call 'em trifoliar. I've seen literally hundreds of them over the years. It's neither a bad thing nor a good thing, it just is. Often, trifoliar plants are male, but not always. Often, the buds a slightly smaller, so overall yield is not increased by the extra bud sight, but not always. Often, the trifoliar trait remains from cotyledon to finish, but not always. Often, a normal phylotaxy plant from a family that has many trifoliar plants, will 'go trifoliar', but not always. Since structural traits are one of the primary way of selecting for higher yield in crop plants, it would seem that a breeding plan that concentrated on trifoliar plants with larger buds would have some success.

 

[arcticsun]

i have seen this in an AK48.. it kept the triple branches and developed to a beautiful and symmetric plant..

it shouldnt be a problematic mutation for the plant.

 

[cannavore]

kopite thanks for the clarification. It was not my intention to group the two (whorled phyllotaxy and polyploid) as the same. My mistake if it came across that way, and I should have made a note of it when referencing that information.

That quote was an old post I admit, and at that time there was more debate and more uncertainty on the subject. I do not think BOG was stating they (whorled phyllotaxy and polyploids) are one of the same, but rather that some think they are linked. Unsure himself he mentions that he simply calls them tripples. This could mean chromosomes to some and organs to others. As kopite has educated us, it is not the chromosomes.

Any rate you are correct. But the reference to that post and thread was to show an alternate opinion from Snypes experiences. That the whorled phyllotaxy trait does not immediately categorize a specimen as good or bad. Again I do not doubt Snypes experiences, but did not want bass to scrap a plant just because of an extra set of organs on the stem.

Here is an alternate in house link starting at pg. 3 where shanti, sam, and others discuss the whorled phyllotaxy trait. This helps lead me to believe that they(whorled phyllotaxy specimens) are not inherently inferior. Some members in that link also support Clarke's claims about specimens with this trait having a predisposition to being staminite (male). On page 1 of the link the difference between polyploids and whorled phyllotaxy is discussed, and in hindsight is a better link for reference. Though BOG's insight was still helpful for me in not immediately discarding specimens that show this whorled phyllotaxy trait just because.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=63891&page=3

 

[kopite]

kopite thanks for the clarification. It was not my intention to group the two (whorled phyllotaxy and polyploid) as the same. My mistake if it came across that way, and I should have made a note of it when referencing that information.

That quote was an old post I admit, and at that time there was more debate and more uncertainty on the subject. I do not think BOG was stating they (whorled phyllotaxy and polyploids) are one of the same, but rather that some think they are linked. Unsure himself he mentions that he simply calls them tripples. This could mean chromosomes to some and organs to others. As kopite has educated us, it is not the chromosomes.

Any rate you are correct. But the reference to that post and thread was to show an alternate opinion from Snypes experiences. That the whorled phyllotaxy trait does not immediately categorize a specimen as good or bad. Again I do not doubt Snypes experiences, but did not want bass to scrap a plant just because of an extra set of organs on the stem.

Here is an alternate in house link starting at pg. 3 where shanti, sam, and others discuss the whorled phyllotaxy trait. This helps lead me to believe that they(whorled phyllotaxy specimens) are not inherently inferior. Some members in that link also support Clarke's claims about specimens with this trait having a predisposition to being staminite (male). On page 1 of the link the difference between polyploids and whorled phyllotaxy is discussed, and in hindsight is a better link for reference. Though BOG's insight was still helpful for me in not immediately discarding specimens that show this whorled phyllotaxy trait just because.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=63891&page=3

Its prob just the way I read it, thx for the link.. I have grown a LSD plant out from BOG which indeed was a whorlled specimen, it out yielded all the others but the only male I had to use was a so called "backward hermie" as I believe Dj refers to them, sure enough the progeny produced more females along with herms!, but the whorl wasn't present. (on a side note I have seen it quite a bit in BOG related strains)

kopite

 

[cannavore]

All good kopite, re-reading it can read both ways and your clarification was needed. You said nothing that wasn't true or out of order. Your insight is always appreciated, thanks for contributing.

Does this qualify, whorled? bogbubble seedling

The coty's when first sprouted showed different shape than the others, slightly mutant style.

 

[GMT]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53476
a lot of the earlier photos are missing due to a gallery clean up, but the thread contains links to very helpfull sites and lots of pics later on, together with in depth discussions on the topic including breeding results etc.

 

[Snype]

Snype do you recall if there were any similarities in the three specimens you encountered that were not suitable to your tastes? Do you remember what about them you didn't care for, or even possibly the genetics? Your experiences are appreciated thank you. This is interesting indeed. Bass did I read right and you noticed this on blueberry genetics or were you just making a comparison?

In 17 years I've only seen this 3-5 times. I saw it on a G13 x Hashplant, Shiva Skunk, Mass Super Skunk and there was at least 1 more but I forget what strain it was. I was always very excited to see it and would always think it would turn out to be something great but it never did. It just wasn't up to par with the other keepers that I got in terms of bud size and quality. There was also a time where one of them didn't even bud and that was about 2 years back. I'm sure I'll see it again and I'll still try it out cause you never know what you'll find.