MAX YIELD = Less Plants & Long Veg OR More Plants & Short Veg???

[Londinium]

Can't vote on this as: when I have had low height space or I am
progeny testing or time was a limiting factor I would short veg and SOG.....and when height and time are no issue + I wanna really see what a plant looks like I would SCROG and long veg! I currently do both for all of the above reasons and I can get Phat yeild's in either....Although if my SOG is a progeny test(they usually are) that means individual plant yeilds diff a lot anyhoo affecting overall yeild....
If you do a large,high room with a multi-level of SOG It smashes the same room with big SROGers but only if you pack in the levels like a shelf grow....Seen it done years back near London with 80 cubic metres of 400w POOT hps/halide on 3 x 4feet high levels(with light movers) in a 20metre floorspace...One of the Coolest things I've seen But its a logistical nitemare(heaps of clones,reaching them all etc) and not worth the extra yeild for the hassle unless you got Robots(Grobots)IMHO.
The main issue with SOG in UK though is it ups your plant numbers massively and that ain't lookin' too good in court! Used to be much more prevalent in the early '90's here though...Mostly NFT or Dripper then. Good luck all whatever your methods!! JBo ;]

 

[nothingbut]

MAX YIELD = Less Plants & Long Veg OR More Plants & Short Veg???

So, I am looking to get a "General Consensus" on this. I know there is going to be a million variables such as medium, nutes, strain, lighting, etc...

Some people I talk to though feel strongly about the basic guidelines of growing less plants or more plants in a space to achieve the same goal. What do you all think??

SOG is more effective with the right strain but not for most of the reasons being cited. I've done tests with WW and the difference i have found if the extra veg time. Although the yeild was the same with 16 4 1/2 ft plants vs 50 12-18" plants (2lbs+) You can do 3 SOG grows in the same time you do two with veg...SOG is less forgiving though!

 

[medmaker420]

Also it depends on what a persons time is worth to them as well. I have sat around hand watering 30 girls before and it wasn't that fun. I want to run less girls BUT more tents/rooms to maximize that way.

If you have a veg room all to its own self it would be easy to just let the girls grow until they are ready and toss them in perpetual style into the various flowering tents/cabs/rooms.

If you take the veg out of the equation, the bush style plants SHOULD win especially if you trim the lower 18" or so to reduce shit bud and fluff bud on the bottom. You can still have just as many cycles per year. I think people get stuck on the vegging extra time BUT if you always have girls vegging it really wouldn't matter except for the FIRST set to go in.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Interesting read...but I have to agree with medmaker...I have a veg area and start vegging about 4 weeks before my crop is finishing...if it takes longer to finish...Bonus Veg time!!

 

[Moondog]

Deleted

 

[darksith]

Also it depends on what a persons time is worth to them as well. I have sat around hand watering 30 girls before and it wasn't that fun.

If you have a veg room all to its own self it would be easy to just let the girls grow until they are ready and toss them in perpetual style into the various flowering tents/cabs/rooms.

If you take the veg out of the equation, the bush style plants SHOULD win especially if you trim the lower 18" or so to reduce shit bud and fluff bud on the bottom.

lol, hand watering 30 plants...oh the travesty, that takes about 5 minutes, maybe 10. Get a pump and a wand, and it will take 2 minutes.

I like this debate so lets take it to the next level. Veg time is irrelavant b/c we will assume everyone has a huge veg room that can hold multiple generations of plants.

If you have the right strain with SOG you can produce pounds per light, where bush style growing you are gonna max out around 2lbs/light at the best. I have heard but never seen the myth of 3-5lbs per light.

 

[ureapwhatusow]

wow 5 pages and very few posts with real relative information

your growing style for max yeild needs to factor in the following

STRAIN - so important when choosing trees vs sog, some plants naturally perform best in one vs the other.

PLANT COUNT - mattered and was the primary grow factor in m region for a very long time

GROWS STYLE RELATIVE TO STRAIN PERFORMANCE IN RELATION TO ROOT SPACE - most people don't understand that in a container grow many plants performance will be relative to the amount of total roots space it gets // some plants are different animals all together when they are grown in a 1 gallon grow bag vs a 5 gallon container. THAT IS the total aggregate yield on a plant like that in a 1 gallon will be less than it is in a 5 gallon

LIGHT PLACEMENT AND LIGHT ATTENUATION - 90% of people dont get light at all, sorry you dont.
taking a 4 x 4 square foot space, i.e. 20 sq foot and you place a 1000 watt light above it 99% of you go hey ive got 50 watts per square foot. no you have most the wattage around the bulb and the light is lost as the distance form it increase, this common misunderstanding of light distribution is why most people dont get maximum use form their lighting.

there are many other factors but the standard for growing here in this region for the last 10 + years has evolved to a very simple 9 plant 1000 watt horizontal layout. average expected standard for yield is 2lbs per light, which is not even a gram per watt, which would be the baseline i would use for that comparison

before that it was agroson 430s on movers over a high density 90 day wonders, which were dam stock single cola indicas

 

[ureapwhatusow]

 

[Matanuskan Flo]

Matanuskan, I propose you attempt this. W/O any parameters and rules involved. No limit to how many plants - just the exact same amount of lighting and light orientation (ie, no vertical vs horizontal gardens, or 400 vs 1000)

Run identical bloom rooms with a true SOG (1 week veg, max.) and tree some bushes out in the other. The bushes WILL win in terms of quality and quantity.

Now you run that same test over the period of a year, and then yes, the SOG will outproduce the trees. A lot of it has to do with time allotment and strain. If you're running a strain that doesn't SOG well, then you're probably not going to do well anyway. But if you can get some AK47 or some NL5 or such... you're golden.

you say w/o any parameters, but then mention identical control lighting. if this was a Parameter aformentioned, obviously i would have responded differently. but, i also totally agree with you, sog will win yield wise with the same lighting parameters over a constant period of time b/c of a few more harvest per year w/ sog. as everyone says though, i would rather keep a few bushes & have some lee way, instead of 50 20g plants I am meticulously feeding & monitoring every fricken single day for a whole year. the big bushes are just easier to deal with. intention is also a factor, are we looking to break yield barriers just to inflate our egos?? no, its for money. so, some people could care less about money & quality is the intention. i think most people will agree a mature bush will usually have higher potency/quality than a tiny sog plant.

 

[darksith]

wow 5 pages and very few posts with real relative information

your growing style for max yeild needs to factor in the following

STRAIN - so important when choosing trees vs sog, some plants naturally perform best in one vs the other.

PLANT COUNT - mattered and was the primary grow factor in m region for a very long time

GROWS STYLE RELATIVE TO STRAIN PERFORMANCE IN RELATION TO ROOT SPACE - most people don't understand that in a container grow many plants performance will be relative to the amount of total roots space it gets // some plants are different animals all together when they are grown in a 1 gallon grow bag vs a 5 gallon container. THAT IS the total aggregate yield on a plant like that in a 1 gallon will be less than it is in a 5 gallon

LIGHT PLACEMENT AND LIGHT ATTENUATION - 90% of people dont get light at all, sorry you dont.
taking a 4 x 4 square foot space, i.e. 20 sq foot and you place a 1000 watt light above it 99% of you go hey ive got 50 watts per square foot. no you have most the wattage around the bulb and the light is lost as the distance form it increase, this common misunderstanding of light distribution is why most people dont get maximum use form their lighting.

there are many other factors but the standard for growing here in this region for the last 10 + years has evolved to a very simple 9 plant 1000 watt horizontal layout. average expected standard for yield is 2lbs per light, which is not even a gram per watt, which would be the baseline i would use for that comparison

before that it was agroson 430s on movers over a high density 90 day wonders, which were dam stock single cola indicas

WOw, nice post except all you did is state factors that affect yield and when chosen properly depending on several factors like grow style, duration and other variables cancel out each other.
Strain, obviously for it to be a fair comparison the right strain for each situation needs to be selected, and it can't be compared as 1 strain which will preform better.
Plant count??? Im not even sure what your trying to say...obviously a SOG is gonna have way more plants.
Grow style in relation to root space??? Again I don't know what your trying to say since no one would do a SOG using 5 gallon pots, or grow a 6' tree in a 1 gallon pail. So how is that a factor to be considered when discussing which will produce a higher yield.
Light placement...again Im confused how that has any relavance in SOG vs Bush. Yes they do have an average light output that can be expressed as w/ft2, but does that mean every ft2 has 50w? No, and is that how you measure light output on the surface of something??? No. How would you expect someone to get maximum use of their light? And then you post pictures of what Im assuming is your grow, and I see that you are doing exactly what everyone else is, and not maximizing your light. I would expect to see your grow as a bare bulb with the plants encompassing the light which is the only way to maximize your light to the fullest since you know light, yet thats not what your pics show. I don't see 8lbs in your grow, maybe it just looks it, but anyone averaging 2lbs per light is doing very well, and that simply is not the standard in any growing community that I have encountered. Also GPW is a very deceptive way to measure yield, and simply by changing from a 1kw fixture to a 600w fixture you can yield the same per light but drastically change your GPW figure. I still didn't see your opinion of the topic of this post also, which will yield more, and I still think that anyone that thinks a bush style grow will be a higher yielding system simply hasn't tried SOG with the correct combination of variables.

Also, you need to do some serious pruning on your crop if thats it, you will yield a much higher % of top quality buds if you remove alot of that bottom shwag that is getting almost entirely shade.

 

[ureapwhatusow]

WOw, nice post except all you did is state factors that affect yield and when chosen properly depending on several factors like grow style, duration and other variables cancel out each other.


thank you for the compliment, but i may have missed my mark I was trying to illustrate that grow style to achieve max yield is dictated by relative factors


Strain, obviously for it to be a fair comparison the right strain for each situation needs to be selected, and it can't be compared as 1 strain which will preform better.


Speaking from localized experience, not everyone has the capacity to choose a strain that would suit their chosen style. most people wh design a max yield imhe have already have a set of proven clone mothers or a gene source to work with

this will influence my choice

Plant count??? Im not even sure what your trying to say...obviously a SOG is gonna have way more plants.

here, in the US many states, even legal ones have plant count limits

designing a grow that goes past those limits changes the risk reward ration and sometimes makes it unreasonable to SOG vs growing trees


Grow style in relation to root space??? Again I don't know what your trying to say since no one would do a SOG using 5 gallon pots, or grow a 6' tree in a 1 gallon pail.

figured it would be hard to articulate, its relative to space and grow style and strain but if you are working in spaces that have more vertical than horizontal layout opportunities you can easily use containers that will support enough root mass to fill the open space with flowers

its about utilization of square footage that is open to plant growth and the proper distribution or resource so all parts of the plant receive optimal environmental conditions

do that you will have optimal yield



So how is that a factor to be considered when discussing which will produce a higher yield.

if your doing soil in containers is especially important

Light placement...again Im confused how that has any relavance in SOG vs Bush. Yes they do have an average light output that can be expressed as w/ft2, but does that mean every ft2 has 50w? No, and is that how you measure light output on the surface of something??? No. How would you expect someone to get maximum use of their light?

relative to space and strain

example i want to grow a 12 week kali mist

i have a 4 x 4 x 8 space, or 5 of em

standard tent size

if I grow them tall and allow them to grow 4 foot colas and distribute light so those colas get the same environmental conditions and wattages of light (or the best distribution possible) i will be measuring equilateral yields in all cubic space the canopy is present in in stead of heavy tops and light bottoms


And then you post pictures of what Im assuming is your grow, and I see that you are doing exactly what everyone else is, and not maximizing your light.



I would expect to see your grow as a bare bulb with the plants encompassing the light which is the only way to maximize your light to the fullest since you know light, yet thats not what your pics show. I don't see 8lbs in your grow, maybe it just looks it, but anyone averaging 2lbs per light is doing very well, and that simply is not the standard in any growing community that I have encountered.

well lets make this more precise with detail

A) that is an older grow that was commissioned for 2 runs so setup had to be low cost as in the period of use was limited

B) the pictures end at week 5, had I had the luxury too take more photos and maintain the grow less you would have seen the differential that was achieved

C) private bred stain, first time seed sister run

D) 2 pounds per is a standard that is not difficult to achieve at all if you have payed your dues properly. This is not a dis, but i find it real real unreasonable for anyone to want to "learn" growing and expect that it is a very simple process that is easy to duplicate and score a great result

yes its a weed, its a ridiculously easy plant to grow.

but good medicine is more than just a weed growing in dirt


Also GPW is a very deceptive way to measure yield, and simply by changing from a 1kw fixture to a 600w fixture you can yield the same per light but drastically change your GPW figure.

no, i feel that if you run a 1000 watt and your looking for MAX YIELD you should be striving for a gram per watt or 2.25 pounds approx

if you use a 600 you need to pull about 1.5 per to hit it

my last run before the one i posted was 600s and the last pull was 2008 grams from 2400 watts a light

not a gram per watt but 1 pound per 1000 and the particular strain is a real bitch to get to put out flowers, and when I entered it into the stain database i adjusted yield to .3 - .7 gpw to factor in relative inexperience as the most limiting factor

I still didn't see your opinion of the topic of this post also, which will yield more, and I still think that anyone that thinks a bush style grow will be a higher yielding system simply hasn't tried SOG with the correct combination of variables.

my observational experience says that its strain dependent

there are some strains that do not shine unless they have a certain amount of root space

I never grew for plain ol' dollars do the motivation is always the medicine

that said, knowing whats on the plate to be grown would be paramount for me to know before we continue to calculate getting max yield

Also, you need to do some serious pruning on your crop if thats it, you will yield a much higher % of top quality buds if you remove alot of that bottom shwag that is getting almost entirely shade.


i don't know what your ratio of trim to bud is but i'm happy with mine

in the horizontal 2 x 2 configuration the side angle of light and driving force of the 1000 watt bulbs managed that canopy depth

i also rotate plants which would be another consideration, big container grows have give you more liberty in handling the plants and giving them intensive care


[/QUOTE]

more shwag from that grow



for some necessity is the mother of invention

for some its the mothers of invention

for me its both

 

[Spl1fftast1ck]

I hadn't really thought about which one is better, just which one fits at the time I'm ready to do another run.

After going back and reading how serious a question or answer this is to some peeps I wanted to amend my answer.

I think the most important factor in choosing any grow style over another is "Why are you growing in the first place?" then from there everything else falls into place.

 

[darksith]

yeah and the best way to grow will be/is dictated (to me anyway) by the strain itself. Every new strain I get I do a 40 plant SOG and a 7-8 plant bare bulb grow. Which ever produces the most is what happens next time around. I find that in the 10 strains I have committed to growing over the years that SOG wins about 60-70% of the time.

 

[Diamonddss]

i would love to try SOG. but in my state over 25 plants is trafficking. I know many med grows have to be limited plants also. This to me is stupid as i could vegg 24 plants for 10 weeks and produce incredible yield or SOG 50 plants much faster but smaller yield. SOG is just not a good chioce for many of us for legal reasons. Shit they even count non rooted cuttings as a plant here

 

[Bud Bug]

i would love to try SOG. but in my state over 25 plants is trafficking. I know many med grows have to be limited plants also. This to me is stupid as i could vegg 24 plants for 10 weeks and produce incredible yield or SOG 50 plants much faster but smaller yield. SOG is just not a good chioce for many of us for legal reasons. Shit they even count non rooted cuttings as a plant here

Except in those 18-20+ weeks (veg/flower) someone with a SOG would be on their 2.5/3rd crop.

For me I need to have my crop down in 8 weeks to SOG is a no brainer. If your area has restrictions on the amount of plants for a fine vs club fed the obviously growing trees is in your own interest.

I always though guys growing 50 plants per light were idiots having to deal with so many plants. It wasn't will I actually tired it that I realized that the crop can come down way faster hence reducing certain risks and I can get more crops in per year.

Now if I was doing 10+ lights would I still do SOG? I sure would. Having to take a greater risk of possible jail time I'd want to crop out fast and bank the money for the possible court date.

 

[mcattak]

Except in those 18-20+ weeks (veg/flower) someone with a SOG would be on their 2.5/3rd crop.

For me I need to have my crop down in 8 weeks to SOG is a no brainer. If your area has restrictions on the amount of plants for a fine vs club fed the obviously growing trees is in your own interest.

I always though guys growing 50 plants per light were idiots having to deal with so many plants. It wasn't will I actually tired it that I realized that the crop can come down way faster hence reducing certain risks and I can get more crops in per year.

Now if I was doing 10+ lights would I still do SOG? I sure would. Having to take a greater risk of possible jail time I'd want to crop out fast and bank the money for the possible court date.

So you take breaks in between crops...because your argument is only valid if you clean up and shut down after each harvest...If you dont shut down then why would it matter if you have vegging plants in another room...

Everyone in the US has plant restrictions....And club fed may be joined with 99 plants of more...

With 15 plants I don't have to worry about a court dates....

I get 5 crops a year and grow 4 foot trees...

Growing SOG obviously has its pros and cons..But if your worried about court dates and jail time seems like trees are the way to go...

SOG is quickly becoming outdated with the things people are doing with vertical lighting, dwc/rdwc and undercurrents....Maybe not the same gpw ratios but I do sleep well at night...

 

[Bud Bug]

SOG is quickly becoming outdated with the things people are doing with vertical lighting, dwc/rdwc and undercurrents....Maybe not the same gpw ratios but I do sleep well at night...

Depending on the geo area but SOG if no where near being outdated. If you're only going to grow a few lights or plants then do what you need to do, for those that I know running 20+ lights its all out SOG either in pots, beds or stadiums with usually 36-50 plants per light.

 

[TNJed]

I've had better results going with fewer, larger plants. That's just me.

 

[HBxNLmaster]

alot of you guys are arguing over nothing, becuase what alot of you are calling medium sized bushes are still under 1 plant per square foot which right or not alot of people call this a sog, some of you say your doing bushes but are only doing 12-14 plants per 4x4 area. it seems to me there are different extremes to sog you can veg for 0-3 days and use 64 plants in a 4x4 area or you can veg for 10-16 days and plant 16 plants in the same area and i expect with same to the close yields.

i also noticed a comment earlier that was wrong when someone said it was not possible to get 4 lbs off of 64 plants well that is wrong because with dwc i pull atleast 4 ounces per plant and when i do the math with enough space that would be 64 plants putting off 4lbs.

as far as what produces better all you have to do is pick up a magazine and look at what the bigger production factories are using and most are using very high plant count with small plants.

as far as big or small plants the only reason i see to do anthing above medium sized plants is to be in compliance with med laws or if you are trying to run a big grow op by yourself it would be alot of work to do all of those clones.

O and one more thing this debate that longer vegged plants produce more potent pot that is theoretically correct with a big BUT the clones you are using would most likely be off a mature plant therefore the plants would already have acheived maturity no matter how the you grow the cutting. some people keep mothers for years and years so if you took clones off these plants and vegged them for 3days then they are more mature than plants that you vegged for 2 months but are off a mom that is only a few months old

for me i have gotten great results off of medium sized plants but never got my yield to what it could have been because i did not maximize my space and put plants in every corner of room. But the ease of growing single dominance colas and joy of watching them grow and not lean over each other and block the lights from one and another is great so for me i say one or two plants per sq ft. single cola style of course would be the best. I want my garden to look like a field of baseball bats.

i was gonna go with 6 inch rock wool cubes next time and pack 4 per sq foot which i will still try but just half my grow but after seeing the yields per plant that ever one else is posting i am rather scared to get to far away from DWC, i have never got less than 3 ounces off a plant dwc and my average is way higher. And the strain i have the most experience with is Hasberry and northern lights, and usually veg about 3 weeks. My record was done with 2 NL plants in one 18 gallon DWC bubbler and pulled 13 ounces, that is 7.5 ounces off each plant. but that was done by using the LST method and vegging for some time if i had to guess id say 5 or 6 weeks.

As far as what to use its all about your space, your preferred type of smoke(glad i like indicas not sativa's as those long spaced out branches are just no fun, i really hated growing train wreck) your grow method and personal preference. but basically you can acheive the desired results from either method you just need to get your grow dialed in.

 

[ureapwhatusow]

to clarify my previous statements

if i control all variables

stain, environment ect

and all things were equal, lets say there were no legal considerations or otherwise

SOG hands down

is it the most practical in real life situations, not in all scenarios, not in my opinion

and that is the point of relativity that to me is paramount