Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[madpenguin]

chefro420, I'll have to get to you in a little bit. These Perc's are kicking my butt. Hard to type when my eyes keep closing and my face itches like mad. Give me till later tonite or something and I'll help you out.

I've always has a weak spot for opiates. Especially when things are kinda sucky in your life....

 

[XsublimeX]

actually mad, all those question you answered about the powerbox i was actually asking about using the Wh40 to time just my light setup, u answered most of them somehow anyways....Ive made a thread askin about using a WH40 for a receptacle timer, its gotten slightly of topic but still helpful. Im still leaning towards using a WH40, but i havent ruled anything out. If you could read over it and lemme know what u think that would be great
I had called powerbox before even joining here and jeff was helpful but its so expensive and the 6 plugs is kind of limiting even tho i doubt id fill them anytime soon. It seems like the WH40 is the way for me to go.

Glad things are back on track a little bit for ya. Nothin like turnin ur life upside down to get the blood flowing , eh?

 

[chefro420]

chefro420, I'll have to get to you in a little bit. These Perc's are kicking my butt. Hard to type when my eyes keep closing and my face itches like mad. Give me till later tonite or something and I'll help you out.

I've always has a weak spot for opiates. Especially when things are kinda sucky in your life....

Thanks! I started a thread in the forum , i will bump it up too. Others have made lots of suggestions. Really appreciate it ! I have the next 3 days off and was hoping to get it done. I wil lget a meter tomorrow and make sure its 240v and find the exact breaker for sure that its on.

 

[NORCALAUTO]

I heard that the intermatic wh40 timers leave one hot lead in off position. Is this true and if so would my dual voltage galaxy 600s just switch automatically to 120 and keep runnin. Now im confused.....

 

[chefro420]

Got the meter is this good?

 

[SmokinErb]

Wow man, glad to hear back from you. Hadn't checked in in a while because I thought you were pretty much gone.

Not that it matters any, but we're going with 400w CMH instead of the beast 1000w'ers. I've done full HPS grows and I'm curious about the spectrum difference and the affect it has on the bud. I have seeds from the last strain I harvested using a 400w HPS so I should be able to manage a decent basis for comparison.

Plus it'll make a mean veg light once I do get my 1KW hps Vertical veg full of autoflowers. Yummy!

Anyway, I'm still waiting on my buddy to get around to helping me wire that damn circuit up. I've got everything I need basically, just waiting on him. Can't wait to get this on the road.

 

[madpenguin]

Got the meter is this good?

Yea, that's a 600v multimeter. Just make sure it's always on the "600" position when checking for voltage. Digitals are nice, but sometimes they can show "phantom voltage" or basically a misreading. That's why I also own and use an analog meter.

 

[madpenguin]

I heard that the intermatic wh40 timers leave one hot lead in off position. Is this true and if so would my dual voltage galaxy 600s just switch automatically to 120 and keep runnin. Now im confused.....

They shouldn't just open one contact instead of both when the timer goes off. If it actually does only kill one leg, then if it's a 240v ballast, it _shouldn't_ turn on because it's not receiving it's operational voltage.

The dual voltage galaxys are dual voltage when you use a different cord for them. They shouldn't run at 120 when your using a 240 cord. I cant say thats 100% correct but I'm almost all but sure they just won't fire if only one leg is hot when using a 240v cord.

 

[Orygun]

Hey madpenguin I've got a quick question for ya.

Basically I've been considering adding 3 more lights to my current 3 lights a 3 ton mini split and a few other miscellaneous things, which got me thinking about my panel and whether it could handle the load. But the issue is I Can't find a main breaker/disconnect anywhere in my panel or on or near my meter. So I'm wondering is it possible that I just simply Don't have a main breaker or disconnect? Did people ever wire houses this way power pole to meter to main panel?

 

[madpenguin]

So I'm wondering is it possible that I just simply Don't have a main breaker or disconnect? Did people ever wire houses this way power pole to meter to main panel?

Yep. My house/apartment is the same way. Goes right from the meter outside into a MLO panel (Main Lug Only). That's the kind of panel that has no disconnect and you terminate the 2 incoming hots to lugs which feed the hot bus.

That means the 60 feet of cable inbetween the meter and my panel is unfused. All 4 units were like this when I moved in. I talked the landlord into letting me back feed a double pole 60A breaker for each panel. That means I took the 2 incoming hots off of the lugs and attached them to a DP breaker. That way, the hot bus bars are fed by the breaker, which in turn, gives you a main disconnect.

You have to work with the cable live tho and I don't suggest doing that unless you are very comfortable working with electricity.

Your first order of business should be to identify what gauge wires are feeding your panel. Then you will know the amp rating for said cable. Then you would have to do a load calculation for your house/apartment and figure out if you can safely add the things you want to add without going over the amperage rating of the wires that feed your panel.

I can help you with all this just find out what size wire is feeding your panel. Then give me a list of all the appliances that are in your house along with their amp or watt rating along with their voltage. You always need to know 2 of the 3. volts and amps or volts and watts.

 

[madpenguin]

On a side note, I finished my 2 ballast flip/flop box. The ex took her camera with her when she moved out so I need to see if I can borrow one. Maybe I'll just buy one seeing as how I'm right in the middle of a harvest...

It will work with magnetic ballasts perfectly. I just need to give it a test run with my 2 600w Galaxy electronic ballasts.

Again, I've never owned or have seen a flip/flop box in person so I'm at a disadvantage as far as all the intricacies and/or quirks that go along with using electronic ballasts on a flip. I have a strong electrical background so building a flip/flop was child's play, I just need to experiment with how the lamps will react to a hot flip using electronic ballasts.

I'll keep you guys informed and do a proper tutorial as soon as I'm able. I'll add up the receipts but it cost me right around $100 dollars. If your the DIY type, that's much better than paying insane prices for a pre-fabbed one... I managed to make mine look fairly nice as well. Aesthetically, it's on par with the light controller in my sig.

 

[Wise]

I'm new here.. this is my first post on any type of mj forum. Thanks for this excellent resource.

As for my question; I have 2x 600 watt hps lights and a 15 amp analog timer. The run is 12-2 and on a 20 amp circuit. The timer I am referring is below. Will this type of timer work for my 600's? Thank you in advance.

 

[madpenguin]

Yea, it should. I currently run 2 600w electronic ballasts on a digital 15A timer 12/12 photo period. Has an outlet on either side just like the one pictured.

As with anything tho, it could be susceptible to failure. Best case scenario, it just stops working. Worst case scenario, It will literally melt at one of the outlets/plug...

Happens more often than you might think. I'm not trying to scare you tho, just stating the facts. I've been using a similar timer for over a year and it hasn't melted or caught fire on me.

 

[Orygun]

Hey madpenguin, thanks for the quick response.

The wire thats feeding my panel is awg 2 (copper) I believe its definitely not smaller. Now for the appliances in the house (non grow) Dryer 23 amps at 240v, water heater 4000 watts at 240v, range unknown its on s 40 amp 240v breaker though, all of the 120v power on the house is run off a 40 amp 240v breaker on the top half of the split bus and finally there is baseboard heat which is tapped in on the main lugs but its turned of at the sub panel breakers. For the current grow portion of my usage there are 3 nextgen 1000s each one takes 4.75 amps at 240v, an air conditioner which use 1000 watts on 120v, a t5 panel which uses 454 watts at 120v, and less then a 1000 watts of pumps fans and other small things. So in total I have the potential to draw a 144 amps of 240v if my math is right Which I know is considerably to much draw for this wire.

However I never use this much power especially at night when my flower room runs, the only things I use then are a burner or two on the stove and the tv or computer.

As far as things I'd like to add to my grow there would be 3 more 1000s 4.75 amps each at 240v, 3 ton mr.slim mini split 23amps at 240v, and 3 additional 454 watt t5 panels. So if my math is right I'd be adding 43 amps at 240 minus the 5 amps my current air conditioner uses so 38 more amps of load on my panel.


On a side note is it safe that my main lugs are triple tapped with the feeder cable, heat, and wires for the top half of my bus?

Madpenguin thanks again for all the help.

 

[SmokinErb]

Hey man, nice to see that you still active. After a lot of trial and error, I finally go that circuit ran. It was actually quite literally a straight shot down. I'm still going to run it a few feet under the baseboards into a corner and just mount the receptacle on the floor. Safe or not?

Got my light up and going too, using the circuit that was already there, so apparently I got my ballast wired up right as well. Couple pics, nothing detailed. Just like to show ya what I got done.

Didnt bother with a pic of the breaker cuz I'm 100% sure I got it right.

 

[intlplayr]

Hi,

I'm pretty sure this is the right place to post this.

I came really close to starting an electrical fire today so I thought I better post and try to get some advice.

I'm trying to switch out an old 2 wire thermostat (heat only) to a digital thermostat that has time and program settings so that I can get my day / night temps closer together.

I took the two wires available (1 red, 1 black) into the new unit. I put the red wire into the Rh hole and the black into the W hole. I read the instructions but it didn't say anything about a black wire and when I searched google I found a post that recommended to put the black wire in the W hole, so I gave it a go.

End result, the baseboard electrical heater turned on fine when the thermostat triggered it which i took as a good sign but then the thermostat started smoking almost immediately and and started melting. Lucky I was prepared to kill the power in case this happened.

Would really appreciate some good advice as this is the second time this has happened now in the last day trying to do this (2 different thermostats and 2 different manufacturers). These things are like 50 bucks each too, doh!

 

[madpenguin]

I'm still going to run it a few feet under the baseboards into a corner and just mount the receptacle on the floor. Safe or not?

Ughhh.... No, not really. Anytime romex can be pinched or "subject to physical damage" it's illegal. You can still do it if you want but it's not legal and _could_ pose a problem down the road. You should have drilled up from below right into the bottom plate of that wall and fished that 12/2 into a stud cavity. Then you could have used an old work box and flush mounted your receptacles.

Got my light up and going too, using the circuit that was already there, so apparently I got my ballast wired up right as well. Couple pics, nothing detailed. Just like to show ya what I got done.

That's sweet! make sure that mail box is grounded please. One major problem tho. The orange extension cord that powers the ballast is fine, but the power out lamp cord needs to be replaced ASAP. That orange extension cord is only rated for 300v and it's currently seeing 500 or more when that ballast is on.

Go to your local electric supply house (Grainger is one of them) and tell them you need 600v rated flexible cord. Doesn't really matter what designation it is. STW will work wonderfully since it has a "wet" rating. I've got the flexible cords listed down in my sig.

Love that mail box tho!

 

[madpenguin]

The wire thats feeding my panel is awg 2 (copper) I believe its definitely not smaller.

Wow. #2 copper from the meter to the panel? Usually people use Aluminum but it's nice to see copper in your case. If that #2 copper feeds the entire "dwelling" and nothing else, then we can use table 310.15(B)(6) for the amp rating which will give you a little more than table 310.16. That requirement of that article makes no freaking sense. It's ass backwards. Usually #2 copper is good for 100A but if that feeder supplies the entire dwelling and nothing else, then it's good for 125A. I would still keep it at 100A if I were you.

Please make sure you are right about the #2. If it's type SE cable with an outer sheath, then it will have markings on it telling you what guage it is.

Now for the appliances in the house (non grow) Dryer 23 amps at 240v, water heater 4000 watts at 240v, range unknown its on s 40 amp 240v breaker though, all of the 120v power on the house is run off a 40 amp 240v breaker on the top half of the split bus and finally there is baseboard heat which is tapped in on the main lugs but its turned of at the sub panel breakers.

Ugh.... If you know an electrician, I'd see if he can come in and remove that double tap on the baseboard heaters. Illegal. If I scanned those lugs with an infrared camera, I bet they would light up like an X-mas tree.

If you have a split bus panel then you do have a main disconnect. On most split bus panels, you have room for 6 double pole breakers on the top half. One of those acts as a main disconnect for the lower half.

The NEC requires that there be no more than "Six throws of the hand" to de-energize an entire dwelling. That's why split bus panels are made the way they are. Usually, you'll find all 240v DP breakers on the top half. Manually throw all 6 and your house is dead.

So..... Rethink your main disconnect conundrum. I bet you are actually legal.

Also, you say all your lighting is on a 40A Double Pole Breaker that feeds the bottom half of the panel. That 40A breaker is your main disconnect for any breakers below it. Please make sure you don't actually have all your house lights tapped directly onto a 40A breaker as that would be bad news. You have individual lighting branch circuits on the lower half of the panel, right? Like Single Pole 120v 15A and 20A breakers that occupy the bottom half of the panel?

For the current grow portion of my usage there are 3 nextgen 1000s each one takes 4.75 amps at 240v, an air conditioner which use 1000 watts on 120v, a t5 panel which uses 454 watts at 120v, and less then a 1000 watts of pumps fans and other small things. So in total I have the potential to draw a 144 amps of 240v if my math is right Which I know is considerably to much draw for this wire.

It's good you did the math on that one because I really didn't want to. . It's ok that it totals 144A because the chances of you running every single thing in your house at the same time is pretty much NULL.

Also, when calculating for a range, you don't take the total amount of amps it can dish out with all 4 burners going plus the oven. Chances of that happening are slim to none unless it happens to be Thanksgiving Day...

However I never use this much power especially at night when my flower room runs, the only things I use then are a burner or two on the stove and the tv or computer.

Dude... Your golden. But, if I understand you correctly, you have an issue with having no more space left at the panel, right? Those would also probably be GE pushmatic breakers from the 40's and 50's era...

Look. Don't do this, but were it my place, I'd go outside and yank the meter bell. Then I'd rip out that old piece of shit panel and replace it with a 125A Main Breaker Panel. One that has lots of spaces for breakers. Then I'd tie everything back in and put the meter back on. If the electric company tried to press me about the snipped "lock", I'd play stupid.

But asnyway... Don't do that. Was just saying is all. Why I was saying, I'm not sure.

As far as things I'd like to add to my grow there would be 3 more 1000s 4.75 amps each at 240v, 3 ton mr.slim mini split 23amps at 240v, and 3 additional 454 watt t5 panels. So if my math is right I'd be adding 43 amps at 240 minus the 5 amps my current air conditioner uses so 38 more amps of load on my panel.

I'm going to leave this up to you, but tally up the total amount of Amps that will be running during the peak of your grow op. That would probably be during the bloom phase as your sure to have a veg room that will be overlapping at the same time.

If your sure it's #2 copper, then we'll start at 125A. For safety's sake, lets derate to 80% since pretty much everything with your grow is considered a continuous load. That leaves us with 100A to pull down those feeder wires. Again, do the math. Stay under 100A and you'll be Ok. You may want to go the extra step and put a note on the dryer saying "don't use from 12am to 12pm" or whenever your bloom cycle is.

Again, are you running new circuits/breakers? Do you have free space to add breakers? How are you planning on feeding all this new stuff?

On a side note is it safe that my main lugs are triple tapped with the feeder cable, heat, and wires for the top half of my bus?

No. That's not good. You should only have one pair of wires in there and that should be the ones coming from the meter. Also, the bottom half of your panel should be fed from a Douple Pole breaker that is on the top half of the panel and the top half of your panel should be directly fired up by the lugs themselves.

So.... I'm a little confused with your description of what's going on. Try to study your panel a little more and make sure your not mis-interpreting what's going on.

As far as those baseboard heaters go, they should definitely be yanked from those lugs. People really piss me off sometimes. Ignorance is no excuse in my book. Either a homeowner did that or a "trunk slammer" electrician.

Let me know what you find out.

 

[madpenguin]

Hi,

I'm pretty sure this is the right place to post this.

I came really close to starting an electrical fire today so I thought I better post and try to get some advice.

I'm trying to switch out an old 2 wire thermostat (heat only) to a digital thermostat that has time and program settings so that I can get my day / night temps closer together.

I took the two wires available (1 red, 1 black) into the new unit. I put the red wire into the Rh hole and the black into the W hole. I read the instructions but it didn't say anything about a black wire and when I searched google I found a post that recommended to put the black wire in the W hole, so I gave it a go.

End result, the baseboard electrical heater turned on fine when the thermostat triggered it which i took as a good sign but then the thermostat started smoking almost immediately and and started melting. Lucky I was prepared to kill the power in case this happened.

Would really appreciate some good advice as this is the second time this has happened now in the last day trying to do this (2 different thermostats and 2 different manufacturers). These things are like 50 bucks each too, doh!

Ugh.... That sucks man.

First off, I take it these heaters are powered by 240V? And as far as the t-stat goes, is it one that you put into one of the heaters or does it fit into a single gang box that is in the wall?

You should be using a Double pole T-stat if they are 240v baseboard heaters (just for safeties sake).

If you could, can you post a clear picture of where the t-stat goes and the wires that are inside. I feel like I don't really know enough about the situation to give you any advice.

Also, how many linear feet worth of baseboard heaters are we talking about here? I can calculate the total amp draw if I know how many feet of heaters you have and their operational voltage.

You have to make sure you get a t-stat that is capable of handling the load. Some of those digitial t-stats are only rated for 15A and you could be tying them into a 20A load.....

Just need some more info. Sorry.... :

 

[intlplayr]

Sorry for being so vague and thanks for teh quick response. You're a great resource here...

So to answer your questions, 240V? It might very well be. I don't even know how to tell though lol

The thermostat does fit into the wall (picture attached)

5'6" of linear feat of baseboard heating. All one piece. The home is brand new if that makes a difference.

Another look at the breaker box shows that it looks like the breakers that power my den are on a 2-15amp double pole switch ( there are 2 baseboard heaters in that room however together they combine to have close to the same linear feet as the flower room that I'm having the problem with) but then on the breaker panel the other 2 switches for heat are both 15 amp single poles only (each controlling a single baseboard heater).

Oh man, I just noticed that on the box of the t-stat it says on the back that it is not compatible with electric baseboard heat 120-240v. May be time to rethink my plan? All I really needed to do is turn my baseboard heaters on at a certain time until the room reached a certain temperature, maintain that temperature and then turn them off at a certain time every day. Just couldn't get that from the analog dials that the place came with.

Perhaps I should just buy a ceramic plugin room heater with built in thermostat and put it on a timer. Originally I thought using the built in baseboard heaters would be more efficient and less expensive. Any ideas?

Thanks again