Watering with Guano

[DocLeaf]

Are we on the same board?

Ammonium nitrate is not even part of this topic. This is organic gardening.

Yes it is!! As already explained we add wee-wee (urine) to our tea in spring - urine is a direct fix of ammonia nitrate,, which is then converted to nitrogen - the bubbling process and sugar aids rapid fermentation.

@ Nug Jug : As already explained,, the sea-bird guano is only used as a source of additional nitrogen over a pre-existing base of Kenyan and Peruvian guano tea. So only small amounts are used.

We tried making pure sea bird tea before and nearly killed a Saxon Axe ,, lol

Hope this helps

 

[mad librettist]

First off he was referring to my use of the word ammonium in proximity to the word nitrate (I think). Now you are using the word ammonia (NH3), which is also not what we are talking about. Ammonia is NOT good. It is your N floating away. And a sign of anaerobic soil. I will assume you meant to say ammonium.

Now let's see a source saying NH4NO3 is found in urine. Because that would have saved people a lot of trouble inventing gunpowder. As far as I know urine has urea, or carbamide, or (NH2)2CO. No nitrogen compounds can be "converted to nitrogen". They can be converted into other nitrogenous compounds, or decomposed I guess to diatomic nitrogen.

Let's see a definition for fixing nitrogen.

Lastly, let's read a book together that will straighten us both out. Looking up all these bunk (I think so anyway) facts is getting annoying, and it seems to me we are wasting time determining which of two laypeople is more autoritative, when it is clear that neither is an authority.

My assertion stands that you are not making ammonium nitrate, that bubbling guano is a waste of time resulting in neither beneficial inoculation nor anything useful, that guano does not contain diverse biology, and that the only way to develop diversity is with diverse food sources and adequate time, energy, air, and water (aka composting). Further, adding guano to compost tea before brewing is detrimental to balanced diversity, and should be done just before application.

I've been laughed at before fir using urine. I won't do that to you. But I will point out that the same urea is found in miracle grow, and that all plants have a mechanism to protect them from urine. Do yourself a favor and compost it, where it can be one of many foods for the biology that will feed, protect, and regulate your plants, soil, water table, etc...

 

[DocLeaf]

This thread is interesting... 10,000s of homegrowers make tea everyday,, some stir chemicals quickly into a bucket and pour them over their plants str8 away,, some leave some leaves in a bucket and use it as feed later on that week,,, some use an air-stone to create an aerobic medium to brew their own homemade tea in , which will be ready a month or so later. Having used many methods we like the whole notion of brewing our own tea from organic stuff,, just like we enjoy brewing beer,, or making wine. Half the spirit is in the fun and hours slaving to get there

My assertion stands,,, that bubbling guano is a waste of time resulting in neither beneficial inoculation nor anything useful, that guano does not contain diverse biology, and that the only way to develop diversity is with diverse food sources and adequate time, energy, air, and water (aka composting). Further, adding guano to compost tea before brewing is detrimental to balanced diversity, and should be done just before application.

Assertions aren't what the guano tea makers are doing... (check out the sub-forum)

I've been laughed at before fir using urine. I won't do that to you.

That's because it wasn't your own. lmfao (joke btw) Note: never use female wee-wee if they are on the contraceptive pill,,, hormones and chemicals are NOT good for plants

Btw,, our piss-feed sustains food-crops and ganja in early veg. only ,,, (shhh dont tell the folks that ate the chillies last season..lol)

Opinions are what we make of them,,, so long as we are all learning

RE: Watering with Guano

The type of water and type of guano have a lot to do with it!

Any added "balanced diversity" to the tea is manifested and regulated by the quality, quantity, and substance of what we put in to it. Like anything.

A little bit of everything does you some good ,, even the bad stuff

Hope this helps

 

[jaykush]

bat guano is far from sterile as far as mircobes go. it may not be as good as compost diversity, but in addition to compost your adding more microbes, of a different kind....so in turn your adding diversity.

 

[DocLeaf]

Bat guano is the fresh or fossilized remains (depending on supplier) of bat s***! So depending on :

- the age of the guano.

- what the bats ate (i.e. corn moths are high in N,, while fruits are high in P n K)

- the extended bio-diversity of the site (cave) the guano was excavated from. (bugs n stuff)

- the treatment of guano after. (heating, drying, or grading)

..then the quality ,, and the microbial lifeforms that surround the guano differ... depending on the guano used in short.

Hope this helps

 

[VerdantGreen]

interesting discussion, i learned some stuff - thanks!

so i mix the guano into my soil - what are the pros and cons of that compared to feeding as you go along with teas/topdressing?

VG

 

[xmobotx]

hey ml - you're trippin' man

no harm in bubbling th guano - maybe not the benefits of bubbling compost or ewc? but, i cant see where you wouldn't gain

are we considering guano products? as FF or whatever? say compared to fresh or composted guano?

cause w/ composted guano you would definitely gain from bubbling -w/ dried box guano products not so much

BTW docleaf, compost teas should be aerated 24 to 48 hrs and not for a month or anything like that

laymen's terms and all, when you make a tea of any ammendment (manure, alfalfa, ewc, or ? [ANY]) you want it to sit long enough for some infusion to happen (color the water!) But, you don't want too many anaerobes. So bubbling can be thought of as a sort of "preventive measure" so icky stuff don't grow in your tea.

BTW, i let some tea go for a while w/ finished compost and it had charcoal (cowboy brand) floating around in it - the "tea" ended up going clear after a while. I theorize that a little charcoal in the compost tea might be a good way to keep it from stagnating or putrefying - - - thoughts?

 

[DocLeaf]

Aeration prevents anaerobic conditions and reactions from happening!

BTW docleaf, compost teas should be aerated 24 to 48 hrs and not for a month or anything like that

It depends on the level of cation that is desired and strength of the ingredients.

We learnt how to make tea from Growdoc,, and by reading information by growers like Burn1 and Soma.

Here is the info you asked for...
Guano Tea:
Per 7 liters/2 gallons,
500 ml/0.5 liter Guano Peru
7 liters of Luke warm water
Pinch of beneficial bacteria
Mix well every other day for 10-15 mins
Tea will be done after 2 months minimum, let sit at 25c or 77f degrees

hope this helps...
Growdoc

Here's not around right now,, but you can always debate this technique with me instead

Bio Biz ,, Advanced Nutrients,, Plagron,, and many many other branded nutrients which contain guano are brewed for several weeks / months before bottling. Maybe do some research into how commercial companies make "organic" nutrients.

Hope this helps

 

[mad librettist]

no harm in bubbling th guano - maybe not the benefits of bubbling compost or ewc? but, i cant see where you wouldn't gain

hey now let me speak for myself xmo. It's bad enough calling guano bubbling useless on a weed board without people inventing even stronger statements and putting them in you mouth. I know you don't mean it.

What we know about life in the soil has advanced since 1972, and it's time for growers to catch up, whether they use guano, or any other food source. Pouring cations on your soil is not the answer. Not for ease of use, quality, disease resistance, environmental protection and rehabilitation.

Just brew your tea with sufficient aeration (please look that up) and add your guano at the end.

And please join us in reading "teaming with microbes" for an introduction to the idea of manipulating chemistry through biology, not the other way around.

Doc, respectfully, you are cherrypicking.

I strongly disagree and feel you are not being quite straight now. If you are interested, or if any one else is interested in biology and how to harness it, instead of mere chemistry, just get on one of the many threads discussing the microherd and how to keep it healthy.

 

[xmobotx]

hey ML

sorry about "putting words in your mouth" that wasn't my intention -more like making a counter-point

What we know about life in the soil has advanced since 1972, and it's time for growers to catch up, whether they use guano, or any other food source. Pouring cations on your soil is not the answer. Not for ease of use, quality, disease resistance, environmental protection and rehabilitation.

lol- a lot of my early book-learning came from mother earth news mags circa the 70s. rodale has been my friend for some 10-15 yrs now though.
so, i do agree 100% (w/ the quote above) -my mistake here may be assuming the use of hi-P guano (as i do) for later stages -since the strength of the plant should be well established at this point and i am dealing w/ a period closer to senescence than the strengthening/growing period
nonetheless, my point that bubbling the guano teas shouldn't be harmful remains intact. call it "voodoo" because the benefits may not be at the level of concoctions which require the aeration. but, as stated - w/ box products bubbling will become less necessary. where w/ home concoctions based on compsted guano, one will actually be making ACT.

hey docleaf

w/ my compost tea/charcoal experiment, i found the water became clear around a month or so.
i feel the ACT process hearkens to the "mountain stream" process. i envision the scenario where you see cow-shit and the like around the stream (and even in it) yet the water downstream is not only clear and clean but (in some instances) may even be drinkable (i know nasty) but, the stream basically leaches nutes and moves them through the forest/mountain redistributing them. w/ natural fires, charcoal and ash can be contributed (as part of the cycle.) and the water would be "sweetened" (or filtered) by the charcoal.
BASED on this model, i embrace the idea that a sort of compost tea could be run continuous. But, i feel a more elaborate mechanism than a bucket and pump/airstone/both would be necessary brewing longer than a few days.

BTW, i let some tea go for a while w/ finished compost and it had charcoal (cowboy brand) floating around in it - the "tea" ended up going clear after a while. I theorize that a little charcoal in the compost tea might be a good way to keep it from stagnating or putrefying - - - thoughts?

i envision a "fountain" system w/ cascading layers (perhaps rocks would be involved?) along w/ aeration & charcoal.

But, at this level, the step into aquaponics seems more logical than un-integrated systems -no?

 

[mad librettist]

where w/ home concoctions based on compsted guano, one will actually be making ACT.

not even close bro.

I don't think anyone sane with knowledge of microbes and gardening is advocating aerated tea made from manure (like guano), aged and decomposed or not (although I can see using some manure in a compost). You just don't have the diversity to begin with, and it only goes down from there. You need fungi, protozoa, bacteria, nematodes, et al.

 

[xmobotx]

red=edit

so, if i make compost,

and my recipe is:

by volume in this order,

4pts-hay (which is grass hay=mixed grass)
1pt-guano [fresh]
1/2pt-finished compost *
1/2 pt-alfalfa
1/8pt-EWC
small amts of; kelp meal

i take 1 cup of this material aged (after aging) oh, say, 6 mos
bag it in a nylon (xxx micron mesh whatever)
toss that in 3-4 gallons of water (or by proportion whatever amounts)
And, bubble it (i use a big aquarium pump/air stone but horticultural air pump/diffuser or water pump circulation=not best but you know; agitate it and aerate it)

Do I not have compost tea? -oops, ACT

these are finished composted materials of which the bat guano is key and figures prominently. but, it's not the main ingredient. though it's intended to age the bat guano and provide guano compost for flowering=hi P - could just as well be high N)


*(finished compost=horse/goat manure, grass mowings, lots of diverse "weeds," some seaweed, some aged natural peat moss, sawdust, wood ashes, eggshells, coffee grounds:::Screened from a revolving pile aged oh, say, 1yr {the pile})

definitive characteristics are not to be confused with the qualitative.

Compost comes from the same latin words as composite. It just means putting stuff together to let nature turn it into something add to soil.

We can agree or disagree over quality. We can argue over definitions. But we should not use one to discredit the other.

 

[xmobotx]

n~(although I can see using some manure in a compost)~

OIC - to me, if it was "composted by itself" that's "aged"

mis-communication i guess - if i use the term "compost" i do mean "compost" just saying, i know what compost is lol

 

[jaykush]

sounds like some expensive compost to make. why not just use the finished compost and EWC in your recipe?

 

[mad librettist]

o, if i make compost,

and my recipe is:

by volume in this order,

4pts-hay (which is grass hay=mixed grass)
1pt-guano [fresh]
1/2pt-finished compost *
1/2 pt-alfalfa
1/8pt-EWC
small amts of; kelp meal

i take 1 cup of this material aged oh, say, 6 mos
bag it in a nylon (xxx micron mesh whatever)
toss that in 3-4 gallons of water (or by proportion whatever amounts)
And, bubble it (i use a big aquarium pump/air stone but horticultural air pump/diffuser or water pump circulation=not best but you know; agitate it and aerate it)

Do I not have compost tea? -oops, ACT

As you know I am loose about the word "compost". I am derided by some for saying "bokashi compost" instead of "acid fermented silage like product" (AFSLP for short). And unhappy with these terms. So I do find it ironic that I am taking a side.

You have compost tea in the sense that you have soaked compost in water and the water looks dirty.

But no, you would not have a diverse web of organisms able to colonize and hold territory while spreading and helping you grow food.

So you might get by on definition but not on intention or result, IMO the crucial aspects. If it's the benefits touted by modern AACT users (Actively Aerated Compost Tea) you are expecting, even brewing for too long will spoil it altogether for most uses. Manure? don't even think about it.

 

[xmobotx]

i must admit i m hazy on the differences in AACT as to ACT

w/ my high maintenance recipe (it's basically what i have done)
-what should my bubble process be?

i m guessing i should use the xxx micron mesh as simplici-tea com to hold my compost

i should bubble w/ a horticultural airpump so my oxygenation gets into the right ppm (such as simplici would recommend)

am i actually wanting to agitate/mix?


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.i think i kinda missed docleaf saying the growdoc recipe called for guano (as manure) along w/ the other ingredients -using i guess an anaerobic method?

that seems a little high maintenance to me (in that the temp has to remain constant so thermostat control) maybe inside the grow cab?

anaerobic makes me nervous

 

[mad librettist]

wait, lol.


I thought I had read you agitate it 6 mos.


lol yeah you have act, aact, whatever. both.

this bagseed is crazy shit.

 

[xmobotx]

lol - let's just assume i know what i m talking about - lol
waaaaay j/k i won't assume that either

i got confused too - lol

 

[mad librettist]

lol

finished compost=horse/goat manure, grass mowings, lots of diverse "weeds," some seaweed, some aged natural peat moss, sawdust, wood ashes, eggshells, coffee grounds:::Screened from a revolving pile aged oh, say, 1yr {the pile})

that's what matters right there. Especially the grass mowings and weeds. It's about the organisms that break them down and live on them.

 

[xmobotx]

whenever i start new compost, i always innoculate the pile w/ a shovelful from the finished previous pile.

6 mos is the time i let the pile compost w/ periodic turnings and some additional water here and there