Watering with Guano
- Thread starter herbaholic
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I get the impression that what ML is saying is precise - where docleaf's point is accurate
can't be much harm in bubbling some guano tea w/ some sugars (as molasses or honey) but the same is accomplished on the small scale w/ simple agitation
so, there's some verbal jockeying = big deal. newbs will learn from their mistakes or give up
can't be much harm in bubbling some guano tea w/ some sugars (as molasses or honey) but the same is accomplished on the small scale w/ simple agitation
so, there's some verbal jockeying = big deal. newbs will learn from their mistakes or give up
I have not jay. Too rich for my blood. Nor do I even own a microscope.
That's a good point though, I should put that on the table. If experience with guano makes one's knowledge of nature, I am but an ignoramus.
But according to my knowledge, and long experience gardening put together, I came up with a sense that it's all just food, and that manure fresh or dried is not a source of diversity. Some compost even falls short of that.
As I stated earlier, I have no problem with guano, and manures of all kind can support lots of life, and are a fine option for feeding soil. Why wouldn't they be? It may even be there is a good reason to bubble guano. Doc has been around the block and I trust his word. But the ones given on this thread simply make no sense. Much like manure teas of old have fallen out of favor, I believe guano tea should go the way of the dodo bird. Now let's tear down my belief with something believable.
I have not tried lots of things. I like to think my judgement has gotten me good results. That's why I ate up the books you posted even as others wrote them off. I can spot a solid thing most of the time.
That's a good point though, I should put that on the table. If experience with guano makes one's knowledge of nature, I am but an ignoramus.
But according to my knowledge, and long experience gardening put together, I came up with a sense that it's all just food, and that manure fresh or dried is not a source of diversity. Some compost even falls short of that.
As I stated earlier, I have no problem with guano, and manures of all kind can support lots of life, and are a fine option for feeding soil. Why wouldn't they be? It may even be there is a good reason to bubble guano. Doc has been around the block and I trust his word. But the ones given on this thread simply make no sense. Much like manure teas of old have fallen out of favor, I believe guano tea should go the way of the dodo bird. Now let's tear down my belief with something believable.
I have not tried lots of things. I like to think my judgement has gotten me good results. That's why I ate up the books you posted even as others wrote them off. I can spot a solid thing most of the time.
Interesting discussion.
For what it's worth, I've used guano teas per the OFB thread and also used guano as top dressing.
I haven't noticed any significant differences to the plants from one approach to the other, frankly. The biggest difference has been it's made things a lot easier/faster for me and it's reminded me once again, less is more. Most people are using too much guano, whether to top dress or make a tea.
For what it's worth, I've used guano teas per the OFB thread and also used guano as top dressing.
I haven't noticed any significant differences to the plants from one approach to the other, frankly. The biggest difference has been it's made things a lot easier/faster for me and it's reminded me once again, less is more. Most people are using too much guano, whether to top dress or make a tea.
not saying that, guanos are only a small part of the whole scheme, but they can have a pretty big influence on the plant if you choose to use them. i dont use guanos anymore but ive mixed thousands of gallons of "guano tea" anaerobically and aerobically. imo both work good if you use the proper method to prepare each one.
NUG-JUG
Member
Not true..Beneficial bacteria and fungi do not enjoy a high phosphorous enviroment. Which is what you are creating by throwing those Seabird pellets in there. You're better off blending it and throwing it in with the water.
Ml can be a smart ass but he's right. When a protozoa eats bacteria mineralized N is released. You aren't doing anything in that tea to increase availability of any nutrient.
Organics is so lenient that some things that cause no harm or help in any way are thought to be worthwhile.
Massproducer
Member
Are you sure benefical bacteria doesn't like P? I thought that was myco that doesn't enjoy P, not all beneficals in general.
Smartaaaass?
No! Not me sir.
I really feel it's ok to bubble guano as part of your ritual. I have my own non scientific rituals. But the precise knowledge xmo talks about is like cash. You can spend it anywhere in any field. That makes me care enough to open myself to the dangers of going against accepted wisdom.
No! Not me sir.
I really feel it's ok to bubble guano as part of your ritual. I have my own non scientific rituals. But the precise knowledge xmo talks about is like cash. You can spend it anywhere in any field. That makes me care enough to open myself to the dangers of going against accepted wisdom.
NUG-JUG
Member
Well they all like some P just not the enviroment of a Seabird poo brew. Although this is my opinion i could be wrong.
Nug don't be silly Thats not an insult anyway. Beats dumbass...
Yeah me too, too rich for my blood. But to each his own right?
It's enough to lay out the options and let the people choose. So all these posts matter.
Jay, would you say those powerful effects can't be had from your plant extracts? How much time do those extracts take compared to earning the cash to use guano in the legal job market?
Yeah me too, too rich for my blood. But to each his own right?
It's enough to lay out the options and let the people choose. So all these posts matter.
Jay, would you say those powerful effects can't be had from your plant extracts? How much time do those extracts take compared to earning the cash to use guano in the legal job market?
When subjected to aeration the EC (food count) of guano tea increases!
e.g. Place contents in bucket on day 1 and measure the EC. Then come back in 3 weeks and take another EC count.. which will be higher.
We use Seabird guano powder,, not pellets. NPK = 9-9-2
1 tblspoon per 5-8 liters.
Phosphorus is subject to quantum chemical valence bond theory; where P bonds in a similar orbital manner to N via cation; when electronegative ions like phosphonium are tetravalent in nature with other compounds such as carbon.
That's why we add the wood ash
Hope this helps
e.g. Place contents in bucket on day 1 and measure the EC. Then come back in 3 weeks and take another EC count.. which will be higher.
We use Seabird guano powder,, not pellets. NPK = 9-9-2
1 tblspoon per 5-8 liters.
Phosphorus is subject to quantum chemical valence bond theory; where P bonds in a similar orbital manner to N via cation; when electronegative ions like phosphonium are tetravalent in nature with other compounds such as carbon.
That's why we add the wood ash
Hope this helps
More chemistry....
Sounds elegant and powerful, until you try to apply it to living soil. At which point it is overwhelmed.
I'm trying to encourage people to think in terms of biology instead. The chemistry in a single archeon is more than a whole chemistry volume can describe.
EC? I don't go for high EC in a tea. I go for biodiversity. Fungi, nematodes, protozoa, bacteria, archea, an others.
Where I care about available nutrients is in the rhizosphere, which only extends some microns away from the root hair. I don't want available nutes drenching my soil.
It's not that I think you are not correct, I just want to help new people to work with the forest instead of the trees. It is harder to get the concepts at first, yes, but after that it only gets easier.
Ever wonder why people say pH does not matter in organics? Actually it's crucial, but the biology takes care of it given the right environment. Polysaccharides raise pH, while fungal digestive acids lower it, for instance. The NO3 in your guano is also attained by bacteria converting ammonium to nitrate. That only happens at 7.0 or above. Huh? How can cannabis get nitrate then , if the medium is 6.5?
Well, no instrument a gardener owns measures the pH of the rhizosphere. Luckily, you don't need to know. If you see robins on your lawn, you have worms and grubs.
Sounds elegant and powerful, until you try to apply it to living soil. At which point it is overwhelmed.
I'm trying to encourage people to think in terms of biology instead. The chemistry in a single archeon is more than a whole chemistry volume can describe.
EC? I don't go for high EC in a tea. I go for biodiversity. Fungi, nematodes, protozoa, bacteria, archea, an others.
Where I care about available nutrients is in the rhizosphere, which only extends some microns away from the root hair. I don't want available nutes drenching my soil.
It's not that I think you are not correct, I just want to help new people to work with the forest instead of the trees. It is harder to get the concepts at first, yes, but after that it only gets easier.
Ever wonder why people say pH does not matter in organics? Actually it's crucial, but the biology takes care of it given the right environment. Polysaccharides raise pH, while fungal digestive acids lower it, for instance. The NO3 in your guano is also attained by bacteria converting ammonium to nitrate. That only happens at 7.0 or above. Huh? How can cannabis get nitrate then , if the medium is 6.5?
Well, no instrument a gardener owns measures the pH of the rhizosphere. Luckily, you don't need to know. If you see robins on your lawn, you have worms and grubs.
NUG-JUG
Member
We use Seabird guano powder,, not pellets. NPK = 9-9-2
1 tblspoon per 5-8 liters.
Phosphorus is subject to quantum chemical valence bond theory; where P bonds in a similar orbital manner to N via cation; when electronegative ions like phosphonium are tetravalent in nature with other compounds such as carbon.
That's why we add the wood ash
Hope this helps
Yea I guess you aren't adding much at just 1 tblspn. I don't understand how adding powdered seabird guano powder is different than the pellets. Are NPK ratios different? Also of course EC would go up after letting bird shit sit in a bucket for "3 weeks." It isn't any better than just adding guano to the watering imo.
Good points jay. It only helps to have honest pros and cons, and someone to keep them honest.
I am as guilty as anyone of tunnel vision.
I am as guilty as anyone of tunnel vision.
OrganicMonkey
Member
Ammonia is a base, ammonium nitrate is just a way to have a water soluble nitrate. It can be in an acidic water, it would take a lot of acid to break the ammonia nitrate bond.
Plants up take ions, so they can be base or salt. You want something right in the middle, slightly acid. They up take basic ions, but it's a balance with acid ions too.
I don't know chemistry real well, so I am a little lose but chime in if you know something....heck, even if you think you do.
Anyhow, someone said something awhile back about guano not having bacteria. I'm sure guano is dirty with bacteria and viruses, bubbling helps mix more than anything. I don't see why air exchange would be that crucial, it doesn't hurt. I've never compared bacteria growing under different atmospheres.
Bacteria is probably the first life form going to be found off of earth, none yet so far released to the public. Funny how that can be read, ha ha ha ha!
I didn't say ammonium nitrate... I said nitrate. Much of your post I can't make sense of. Ammonium happens in acidic conditions, and once you have nitrifiers and pH 7 you get nitrate, the preferred N of most annuals. All plants can use both, but it's not healthy to give hydrangeas nitrate. Cannabis likes some nitrate for sure.
The first bacteria were anaerobic sulfur eaters. Eventually protein was broken down and co2 released. Then we got an atmosphere. The first N in the ground was fixed by lightning.
Hey I got a book you could read so we all have the same vocabulary if we want to.
The first bacteria were anaerobic sulfur eaters. Eventually protein was broken down and co2 released. Then we got an atmosphere. The first N in the ground was fixed by lightning.
Hey I got a book you could read so we all have the same vocabulary if we want to.
OrganicMonkey
Member
Are you sure that ammonium nitrate happens in acid conditions, cause it mixes with kerosene and that is a non-polar solvent.
Are we on the same board?
Ammonium nitrate is not even part of this topic. This is organic gardening.
Ammonium NH4 - pooped out by predators like amoebae and bats
nitrate NO3 - the results of nitrification. Also in bat poo. Not sure why.
see the 4 hydrogens? That means acid.
The opposite of acid is a base. There is no opposite of salt. Maybe organic compounds I guess but that is not opposite.
Edit: correction - NH4 happens in all conditions not just acidic
Ammonium nitrate is not even part of this topic. This is organic gardening.
Ammonium NH4 - pooped out by predators like amoebae and bats
nitrate NO3 - the results of nitrification. Also in bat poo. Not sure why.
see the 4 hydrogens? That means acid.
The opposite of acid is a base. There is no opposite of salt. Maybe organic compounds I guess but that is not opposite.
Edit: correction - NH4 happens in all conditions not just acidic
