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Alkalinity vs Ph

BruceLeeroy

Active member
As we all know, in gardening there is a large focus on Ph and the acidity vs. the basicity of a solution. Yet we never hear about the Alkalinity of a solution, which is an important part of stabalizing Ph. Why is this? Why are they so misunderstood in hydroponics? Alkalinity and basicity are NOT the same thing, but they so often seem to be confused when it comes to hydroponic gardeing. can any Chemists enlighten us all? A high alkalinity buffers the Ph substantially but at a higher Ph range than most of us would ever want to keep our girls at, but low alkalinity makes for Ph shifts... which can be equally unhappy. Has anyone done anything interesting with tracking Alkalinity in their Hydro setups, or do we all just put our faith in the makers of our nutes that they properly and adequately buffer them? Many different plants and organisms benefit differently from given levels of alkalinity and Ph.... anyone have any science on it?

Out in left field here, and i know the age old argument that co2 in a rez does nothing for the plants as far as the co2 itself goes, but co2 disolving in water lowers Ph significantly. Many saltwater aquariums compensate for this by growing macro algae's that take Co2 out of the water, thereby raising the Ph. The basicity is unnaffected. so the "whatif" i have is if a person were to diffuse co2 directly into the res, and increase the Alkalinity of the nutrients via carbonate or bicarbonate and balance the two out to keep a good solid Ph, what would the effect be? It seems like certain salts, most importantly Calcium, Magnesium and Potasium, would me more readily available to the plants in larger quantities if Alkalinity were kept higher and using the co2 introduction in the res to keep the Ph lower, say 5.5-6.0

Obviously Alkali soils are typically bad for plant growth, but it seems this is due to the basicity rather than the alkalinity itself. couldn't lowering the Ph correct this problem? Anyone have an real chemisty knowledge or first hand experience playing with this?
 

highonmt

Active member
Veteran
You are right it is not ph instead of typing a page heres a wiki

Alkalinity or AT is a measure of the ability of a solution to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate. Alkalinity is closely related to the acid neutralizing capacity (ANC) of a solution and ANC is often incorrectly used to refer to alkalinity. The alkalinity is equal to the stoichiometric sum of the bases in solution. In the natural environment carbonate alkalinity tends to make up most of the total alkalinity due to the common occurrence and dissolution of carbonate rocks and presence of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Other common natural components that can contribute to alkalinity include borate, hydroxide, phosphate, silicate, nitrate, dissolved ammonia, the conjugate bases of some organic acids and sulfide. Solutions produced in a laboratory may contain a virtually limitless number of bases that contribute to alkalinity. Alkalinity is usually given in the unit mEq/L (milliequivalent per liter). Commercially, as in the pool industry, alkalinity might also be given in the unit ppm or parts per million.
Alkalinity is sometimes incorrectly used interchangeably with basicity. For example, the pH of a solution can be lowered by the addition of CO2. This will reduce the basicity; however, the alkalinity will remain unchanged (see example below).


Cheers
HM
 
I always have stable ph, I understand that P and K could raise the ph. The outdoor plot that has high K outside of the holes, is quite alkaline. Yet there are other elements, that I'd say have caused this high ph.

I'm not sure what there is to discus, but it's true that cannabis doesn't like alkaline dirt. It never really greens up in alkaline substances, I find lowering the ph outdoors is required...but seven does find if there are some acidic locations.

Buffer's add problems if they haven't already interacted, it's more of an adjustment with liquids than a buffer. A buffer sounds like adding lime when you don't know what the ph exchange is going to end up as...so it's said to be a buffer and not an adjustment with known outcomes.

I fill holes and make soil that is well, around a ph of 7. So I feed waterings that are at 6.5 and that soil remains at 6.5. I live in lime stone country, but the fact is having a slightly acid mix brought out stays that way for a very long time.
 

BruceLeeroy

Active member
My question is what would the result be if you raised Alkalinity while lowering Ph? If the increased Alkalinity was a result of Calcium, Magnesium and Potasium salts, and Ph was kept in an optimal Hydro range (disolved Co2 would probly be easiest without overdoing N or P), wouldn't the result be an increased uptake in Cal Mag and K?

in soil, the decreased growth most types of plants experience is due to the basicity normally associated with naturally occuring high alkalinity, not the alkalinity itself. That's why I'm curious.... acidity and alkalinity rarely if ever occur together in nature, so what if it were artificially created in a hydro setup?
 

BruceLeeroy

Active member
incorrect. BASE is 7-14 Ph, Acid is 1-7 PH. neither is a measure of Alkalinity, which is best explained in highonmt's post. You lower PH and raise alkalinity by adding alkaline salts and the best method i can come up with to lower ph while doing so is disolving co2 in the water.

The topic came up due to my starting up a new reef aquarium for keeping corals. I had a very high alkalinity (natural saltwater is quite alkaline) but my Ph kept falling. I finally figured out the cause was high Co2 (600ppm) in the room the air pump intake for the tank was in. turn off the air pump or put in micro algae that use the co2, and ph went up. shut them off and remove algae, ph dropped again, alkalinity remained high and unchanged regardless of ph.

so now i'm wondering if there would be any benefit to manipulating a hydro system to have a high alkalinity and normal Ph.
 
Last edited:
well in school i learned 7-14 was alkaline but that was like 25 year ago ^^ i'll leave u brainy folk to it since its over ma head haha
 
Buffer's add problems if they haven't already interacted, it's more of an adjustment with liquids than a buffer. A buffer sounds like adding lime when you don't know what the ph exchange is going to end up as...so it's said to be a buffer and not an adjustment with known outcomes.
That is not how a buffer works. Lime is not a buffer. Buffers have known outcomes.

I see what the OP is getting at but I don't think it would be enough to see an effect. I use GH nutes and their buffers work very well. They seem to have it figured out. It has never occurred to me to add more buffers to their mix. If the buffers are keeping the pH in range and you have a sufficient quantity of necessary ions in the water you plants should be getting everything they need. Maybe I'm missing something in your idea. I just don't see any positive effect from raising the alkalinity in an already well balanced solution (for the plants).
 

BruceLeeroy

Active member
Probably nothing, GH I agree has always done an excellent job on buffering their nutes. I guess mainly I was taking a shot in the dark regarding methods to increase the Mag/Cal in a nute solution without a chance of lockout or similar issues. From reef tank experience and some internet research, I gather than the higher a solutions alkalinity, the more Calcium especially can be raised without risk of it locking up and precipitating the calcium out (white powerdy stuff covering bottoms and pumps etc). Mainly just curious if it would benefit the plants at all, or if alkalinity itself is bad for the plants, or just the high Ph that is normally associated with high alkalinity that causes issues.
 
This thread is jogging my water chemistry knowledge. I pulled out an old textbook to refresh my memory. Without spending too much time on it I ran through the numbers on the carbon cycle through water and the added alkalinity from saturating the solution with CO2 is negligible. How the carbonates, etc down the line will react with the ions in the mix I didn't look into.
+K for making me think. I love when Mj boards force me to remember stuff like this.
 
C

Carl Carlson

If you increase the alkalinity of the water, you could be messing with the pH of the substrate.

For stable substrate pH, match low-moderate water alkalinity with low ammoniacal nitrogen content.

Add calcium to substrates with pre-plant application of d. lime, etc. Or apply with liquid nutes.

Way, way, way too much focus on nutrient water pH around here; well in the coco sub-forum that is.

FYI:

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm

pH Management and Plant Nutrition, by Bill Argo

Part 1 Intro
Part 2 Water Quality
Part 3 Fertilizers
Part 4 Substrates
Part 5 Choosing the Best Fertilizers

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/production/?storyid=2890&style=1

Addressing pH Problems (water quality & nitrogen content)

By Matt Taylor and Dieter Lohr
January 2010

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/plugs/ghsubfert.pdf

Greenhouse Substrates and Fertilization (also water quality)
Douglas A. Bailey, William C. Fonteno, and Paul V. Nelson
Department of Horticultural Science, NCSU
 
C

Carl Carlson

so now i'm wondering if there would be any benefit to manipulating a hydro system to have a high alkalinity and normal Ph.

Soilless, hydro, soil, whatever it may be, the short version of my post above is that high water alkalinity will mess with the substrate pH.
 

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