Organic plant flushing itself

[mad librettist]

I see lots of question about the flushing thing, and I wanted to share what I've observed and documented:

The plant below is close to harvest - today is 3/14 and I flipped on 1/27. It's blue burmese (bagseed). The way my soil works is that I add food to the soil between grows, or for a new container I just mix up some soil with dry nutes, throw in live wigglers and their eggs, and I let that sit for a while. I always keep worms in the pot. So when I top dress, it goes away pretty fast. I don't use guano, just worm castings whenever and fish fertilizer once a month. So the nutes for the whole grow are pretty much in there from the start. It's impossible to flush. Besides, there is no runoff when I water, and if I overdo it I put it on a tray it gets absorbed from the bottom.

So here she is today, day 44:

If you follow the link in my sig, you will see my plants are healthy as can be. What's happened is they simply don't care to feed anymore. So the microbes in my soil stop giving. Either that, or I am such a master that I know exactly how much to feed and when. Which I assure you is not the case. I gave worm castings slurry just last week, because I was by the worm bin doing laundry.

This is headed towards a picture-perfect finish, and I wish I could take credit. But the plant did it. My big job was providing water. So... water boy.

If you are thinking about a water only (mostly) regimen with well populated soil taking care of your plant, don't let the fact you can't flush it stop you. Give it a try, it's easy, and cheap - so nothing to lose.

 

[DARC MIND]

nice looking plants you got ther
i think the thread title is a little off though, i dont think any plant can "flush" its self..flushing to me means simply drenching the media with excess water and i doubt your plants can do that on ther own imo.
any ways
this is a great example that organic living soil can be done on a small scale. oh excuse me Pseudo-organic
looking good for bagseed brother

 

[orpanic]

They are just showing a Nitrogen deficiency towards the end of flower, sure you can call it a flush, but it is just because you have been cutting out the N in the mix. Keep the water only and you will get a better flush and tastier herb, nice job!

 

[habeeb]

blue bermese, sounds like DJ mixed in there?

if so DJ's are known to cut off in flower early sometimes,

there was some article in here about senescence, check it out

 

[mad librettist]

that is senescence!

I mean flush as in the purge that supposedly keeps it smooth. (not sure I buy it - the nutrients leaving the leaves would be headed for the buds, no?). The whole reason for rinsing the media is to remove it from the plant. Well according to current biology, my plant is simply not asking microbes that give N to hang out on and around her roots. A lot of folks talk about control though, so that the plant is not "overfed". Pseudo-organic offers an alternative for those who are interested.

Don't you think it's a bit uncanny that it starts to yellow just as the buds are almost ready? Or that this seems to happen with every plant I put in this soil? Day 60 is pushing it with this clone. And it's twin sister, in a bigger pot, has bigger buds that are not as mature (going by calyx swell and trichome color). And it is just now starting to yellow, at exactly the same level of ripeness.

To me it looks like the plant is in charge. But to prove it, my next clone is going into "used" but undisturbed soil. (just top dressings and worms). If it was truly caused by a dearth of N, then the clone should have problems right away. But I'm betting there is a whole lot stored in microbes and the roots, And I just have to keep the soil alive.


The blue burmese is bagseed. I really like this indestructible specimen. Light leaks? Who cares!

 

[NUG-JUG]

Hey ML thanks for the post as I used to be confused about organics and flushing too. I agree that the plant is in almost complete control of the nutes it gets from bacteria, and fungi. Low amounts of N are being fixed in the root-zone so your plant is yellowing nicely. I think that once I realized that part of the beauty of a healthy micro-herd is it's ability to retain nutrients inside the bodies of the BB, I stopped caring about flushing since it no longer made sense.

 

[Dignan]

Excellent thread, mad. Can't figure out why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp.

 

[mad librettist]

thanks guys.

Dig, I think some people just disagree, and that's cool too. Vive la difference!

here is the slightly less mature plant. They are like 4 days off. This is a third more soil, so remember it also dries out slower, even though I water them together.

So could it be my underwatered plant above finished faster due to stress?

In any case, this is a profile, and as you can see the pattern is not classic N deficiency starting at the bottom and moving up.

 

[mad librettist]

It's come to my attention that some have dubbed me bullshitter over this thread.

No, I do not believe in such a thing as flushing, and I have never flushed cannabis (I didn't even know about flushing as a guerilla grower). But I am keenly aware that many contemplating organic soil growing are afraid of overfed nute machines at harvest. And the gold standard among many folks is the look you see in my pics. I merely wish to show that there is nothing to fear.

This is not a technical or scientific thread. It is a sales pitch. Just want to make that clear while I still can. I care less and less for all this technical stuff, because a 5% yield increase on a micro grow is a waste of time if it takes any effort. And outside, in my real garden, it gets easier every year.

The purpose of science is to develop good practices for most gardeners. Some of you love the science as much or more than growing, and hey, that is cool. But I'm a process guy in the end, and I only use the science, pseudo-science, or voodoo so I remember what to do and when.

 

[DARC MIND]

i was only picking on you mad
i know you undestand what senescencing is,
cannabis is an annual...right??

 

[mad librettist]

lol not you darc. People not wanting for one reason or another to come out and discuss it. the OTHERS. Either that, or a certain someone is fucking with my head by telling me that rumor. I'm kinda sensitive.

"the others" lol sounds like lost season 1.

 

[DARC MIND]

i remember way back i was advised not to flush when i chose to grow the way i do. and i never had a problem, the plant fades like it otta and the smoke is as smooth as butter

a guy i look up too sig says it all,
Bullshit! There's no need to flush organics. -Bongaloid

 

[mad librettist]

yeah, that's the ticket.

You know, I work in the arts. I am on the artistic side of things, not administrative. Among my colleagues, there seems to be no correlation between understanding the technical and scientific concepts behind the production of the art, and the ability to produce it well and consistently. If anything, those who very knowledgeable people tend to watch the others do the big jobs and get the big bucks, and criticize them incessantly. They have time, because their jobs are so small.

 

[southpaw]

A little bit of a detour, but I'd love to hear more about how you use wigglers in spent soil. Do you add in any bedding material/ browns to start with, or just start with old soil/ rootballs and start feeding greens?

I'm feeling the itch to start another worm bin, but I just don't have a big enough set up to justify making gallon upon gallon of pure castings. I really like the idea of adding amendments and food scraps to a big bin and just letting the little guys mix my soil for me.

Back to the topic, I think you are right on the money. One pattern I've noticed over time is that the more accomplished the grower, the less extraneous crap they put into their mix. I was looking at Tom Hill's monster plant thread last night, and his mix is insanely simple. Twelve foot bushes grown in Black Gold, some castings, and gypsum. Flushing is a tool like any other technique, it has its place, but I'd rather use a mix that tapered off the amount of available nutrients on its own without me having to nuke the rootzone during peak flower production.

 

[mad librettist]

I don't wait until the plant is chopped to add worms. I do it from day one. Plus my worm casting slurry has cocoons. I just transplanted an elephant bush and a reveg clone, and both had worms already. I never top dressed the elephant bush. So it had to be the slurry. lol I was wondering why the neglected plant was suddenly looking better and the pot was pooping out its drain holes.

Anyway, after I chop, I add some bokashi (maybe push it under and drop it in the hole left by my auto watering thingy), some castings on top, rock flour, kelp meal, and water with EM. Then I give it leaves and such, and keep it dark and moist. It might get fungus or whatever but eventually it straightens out it seems.

Man, you can always use more castings. You can make slurries like milkshakes, make seedballs for inflicting beauty on the landscape, germinate seeds in it, top dress it, or even just chuck it. You will be returning humus to the earth more and hogging landfills less.

 

[Stoned Crow]

To me it looks like the plant is in charge. But to prove it, my next clone is going into "used" but undisturbed soil. (just top dressings and worms). If it was truly caused by a dearth of N, then the clone should have problems right away. But I'm betting there is a whole lot stored in microbes and the roots, And I just have to keep the soil alive.

Have you taken any of your clones past the 60 day flower mark while making sure that there is plenty N-P-K available to the plant? Is your theory that the flowering of the plant triggers the senescence?

I hear what you're saying and it makes sense. What I would like to know is can you turn off or delay or even reverse senescence. I think reveging indicates you can manipulate it to a point. SC

 

[mad librettist]

well I got a mazar reveg, and the finished plant was yellow. Worms still living. I just put it under 24, and senescence was halted and reversed.

I don't want to take credit for any theories, since it goes to the guys who did the research. Hey stoned, wanna read teaming with microbes with us? It explains a lot of this stuff super simple, which makes it easy to pass on.

here's the idea though: plants exude stuff from their roots, and they use it to get partial control over the rhizosphere and who lives there. When the special food source is cut off (not worth it short term for the plant, so why invest?), the food wed balances out and the microbes trading nutes directly or indirectly die, go dormant, or go on their way. Example: I read in the good book (lol) that nitrifying bacteria can only do their work above 7.0, and I'm told MJ prefers NO3 over NH4. So the rhizosphere is probably at 7 or higher, right? (not the medium, just a small number of microns around the root hairs) But without the extra sugar to feed the bacteria that make polysaccharides that raise the pH, it goes back down, right? That's one example (hope i got it right) of many.

when you flip the switch or reveg, you don't just effect change in the leaves. If i had to guess I would say the roots "change their mind" first.

Other than light, the only thing I can think of is nutes in ionic form, N or whatever else causes condition dreaded by many growers. (and beloved by some i'm sure. like bizarre sex acts, there is always someone who likes it).

 

[southpaw]

I don't wait until the plant is chopped to add worms. I do it from day one. Plus my worm casting slurry has cocoons. I just transplanted an elephant bush and a reveg clone, and both had worms already. I never top dressed the elephant bush. So it had to be the slurry. lol I was wondering why the neglected plant was suddenly looking better and the pot was pooping out its drain holes.

Anyway, after I chop, I add some bokashi (maybe push it under and drop it in the hole left by my auto watering thingy), some castings on top, rock flour, kelp meal, and water with EM. Then I give it leaves and such, and keep it dark and moist. It might get fungus or whatever but eventually it straightens out it seems.

Man, you can always use more castings. You can make slurries like milkshakes, make seedballs for inflicting beauty on the landscape, germinate seeds in it, top dress it, or even just chuck it. You will be returning humus to the earth more and hogging landfills less.

Good points. Unfortunately, my "yard" is a 40 square foot balcony, I am a terrible winter gardener, and I'm currently running coco indoors. Every year in the summer I read up on cover cropping, green manure and winter composting, then November rolls around and my enthusiasm fades along with the sun. Whatever survives the winter, I baby back to life in the spring.

Worm bins are too much fun though. I've got to get one rolling again.

 

[mad librettist]

try some winter rye. Just chuck it on there. A few weeks before planting just mow it with scissors.

I don't have much yard to play with. So I joined a community garden. I don't buy veggies in the summer...

My weed I grow in a rubbermaid.

 

[Dignan]

What I would like to know is can you turn off or delay or even reverse senescence. I think reveging indicates you can manipulate it to a point. SC

You can manipulate with photoperiod, but that doesn't say much about manipulating via feeding nutrients to the soil.