Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[SmokinErb]

Dude. Ohms law is just a rough estimate. Don't use it. Look at the name plate on your ballast. If it doesn't haven't a metal nameplate on it, then find a PDF on your specific ballast. Falling that, use an ammeter on the hot wire. Either way you slice it, you need an exact amp rating that your ballasts draw. Ohms law will not get you there.

16 Amps is the maximum you can draw on a 20A circuit with continuous loads. 16.1 Amps and you need to bump up to a 30A breaker with #10 wire. Don't fuck around with that. I mean, ultimately, it's up to you. If your drawing 17A and want to use #12 and a 20A breaker than go ahead, but I wouldn't.

Thanks for that. It really wasn't about pinching pennies, the difference is like $15 more for the 10A stuff, no big deal. It was more of about trying to keep anything from looking too suspicious. It was more of IF I can run 12/2 with a 20W breaker for 2 ballasts only, then I'd do that. Seeing as how its so close cut, I'm just going to go with the 30. It's just a really small bedroom, and a whole extra 30A circuit in the room might raise an eyebrow or two. Then again that's after I'm gone, but still.

I think your not fully grasping the concept of a flip/flop. 2 ballast that run 4 reflectors (but not at the same time). Yes, the 2 ballasts run 24/7 but without a timer to flip the relay contacts, how are the other 2 reflectors ever going to fire up? Do some research about flip/flops here on Icmag.

I really do get the concept of the flip/flop, it's been my latest obsession. I only wish I had knew about them earlier. I just wasn't sure about the timer, I knew the timer was just handling the flip, but I didn't know how much power was actually going through the timer. Going back and reading it, I really didn't type that up the way I should have. For some reason I was under the impression that the timer was plugged in between the receptacle and the flip box itself. My mistake.

 

[manitu]

Dude. Ohms law is just a rough estimate. Don't use it.

Am I the only one who reacts to this?

Ohms law is the LAW of electrics. try to stretch it , and you WILL be punished!

But of course , you must the input rating of the ballasts in your calculations , not the light output...And don't calculate to use more than 80% of the capacity of cables and breakers.

.manitu

 

[Bud-Boy]

Good shit mon! I'm compiling this whole thread in PDF to keep around. im trying to catch up but 17 pages is more than I have "time" to read at any given moment. I hate asking little repetitive questions.

 

[RipVanWeed]

So I totaled up the watts to be used at 110v to be 2100w

2100/110 = 19a

5 x 1ks on 240v

5000/240 = 21a

Then add some more for resistance and heat...

Looks like I should go with a 60a subpanel.

Now to go back to pg1 to see about size of conductor.

If my calculations above are wrong please call me out.

Much Respect,

 

[RipVanWeed]

Right at the top of the 1st page is a chart "Wire Capacity and Use" plainly states #6 for 60a.

Then, next chart down states #6 handles 50a? or 9600w

Well 9600w/240v = 40a!

The subpanel will be about 40' max away from the main.

I'm hoping to use #6 as things are getting pricey?

Thanks,

 

[madpenguin]

Thanks for that. It really wasn't about pinching pennies, the difference is like $15 more for the 10A stuff, no big deal. It was more of about trying to keep anything from looking too suspicious. It was more of IF I can run 12/2 with a 20W breaker for 2 ballasts only, then I'd do that. Seeing as how its so close cut, I'm just going to go with the 30. It's just a really small bedroom, and a whole extra 30A circuit in the room might raise an eyebrow or two. Then again that's after I'm gone, but still.

I really do get the concept of the flip/flop, it's been my latest obsession. I only wish I had knew about them earlier. I just wasn't sure about the timer, I knew the timer was just handling the flip, but I didn't know how much power was actually going through the timer. Going back and reading it, I really didn't type that up the way I should have. For some reason I was under the impression that the timer was plugged in between the receptacle and the flip box itself. My mistake.

Eh.... Wasn't trying to be pissy. It kinda came out that way. Stayed out drinking last night and barely remember posting the last 3 replies....

I'm going to do a 120v flip tutorial here soon just like I did with the light controller. Same enclosure. You would have a flexible cord coming out of the flip box whose sole purpose would be to plug into a timer and then the timer just plugs into a wall receptacle. And again, the timer just controls the armature of the relay. Anywhere from miliamps to half an amp tops will be running through the timer. You ballasts need to be plugged directly into the wall to get their power.

 

[madpenguin]

Right at the top of the 1st page is a chart "Wire Capacity and Use" plainly states #6 for 60a.

Then, next chart down states #6 handles 50a? or 9600w

Well 9600w/240v = 40a!

The subpanel will be about 40' max away from the main.

I'm hoping to use #6 as things are getting pricey?

Thanks,

That first post chart already has continuous loads factored into the wattage. It's a nice chart and all.... But if you really want the low down on wire ampacity, use table 310.16 of the NEC. It's here somewhere in this sticky but I'll post it again. Even I can't find shit in this thread. I tried to compile it all in my sig but there is a cap on how much you can put in your sig so I had to stop.

It says #6 romex is good for 55A. Well, there is no such thing as a 55A breaker so the NEC allows you to round up to 60A. But....... Since most things in a grow room are rated continuous duty (runs 3 hours or more), then you have to take 60A times 80% to arrive at the "safe" operational limit of the conductors.

60 x .8 = 48A....

Umm... I need to look at the first chart because now you have me confused. Just don't look at it. Premade one size fits all charts only get you so far and leave alot to be desired.

Use the above chart and you get the proper answer 100% of the time.

 

[SmokinErb]

Eh.... Wasn't trying to be pissy. It kinda came out that way. Stayed out drinking last night and barely remember posting the last 3 replies....

I'm going to do a 120v flip tutorial here soon just like I did with the light controller. Same enclosure. You would have a flexible cord coming out of the flip box whose sole purpose would be to plug into a timer and then the timer just plugs into a wall receptacle. And again, the timer just controls the armature of the relay. Anywhere from miliamps to half an amp tops will be running through the timer. You ballasts need to be plugged directly into the wall to get their power.

Dude, I totally get it. Repetitive questions get old fast. I HAVE read this thread more than once through however, it's just a lot of the terms get me pretty confused at times.

That 120v flip tutorial is something I'm definitely looking forward too. I've found a few, and some of them look legit... but what do I know? I'm digging this thread quite a bit. Any chance for that tutorial within say...3 weeks?

I'm building one either way, I just like your methods. You put safety before anything else, and that's why I'm here right now.

 

[RipVanWeed]

MadPenguin,

I am not an electrician. I do not understand the terms used in the chart you suggest I use. I looked carefully, yet do not see the word amp anywhere on that chart?

I guess I was hoping to supply any particulars to help pinpoint the answers to my questions.

I thought the reason for a thread like this, especially one that's stickied, was to help non-electricians get it right. Instead, I just get refered back to the chart/info I needed help with in the first place.

I've got other question's regarding this install, but if your uncomfortable stooping down to my electricly uneducated level, I'll look elsewhere.

Searching for straight answers,

 

[madpenguin]

MadPenguin,

I am not an electrician. I do not understand the terms used in the chart you suggest I use. I looked carefully, yet do not see the word amp anywhere on that chart?

I guess I was hoping to supply any particulars to help pinpoint the answers to my questions.

I thought the reason for a thread like this, especially one that's stickied, was to help non-electricians get it right. Instead, I just get refered back to the chart/info I needed help with in the first place.

I've got other question's regarding this install, but if your uncomfortable stooping down to my electricly uneducated level, I'll look elsewhere.

Searching for straight answers,

Dude. I'm detecting a slight attitude and I'm just trying to help you. Let me break down the chart even tho I think it's self explanatory.

EVERYTHING in the red box is Amps. Everything in the Blue boxes is wire gauge. Everything to the left of the green line is copper wire. Everything to the right of the green line is Aluminum wire. Everything in the 60 degree column is what romex is rated for. Everything in the 75 degree column is for when you run that type of wire listed inside conduit. Everything in the 90 degree column is for when you run that type of wire in conduit.

Very rarely will you ever use the full ampacity listed for the 90 degree wire because terminal lugs, breakers and receptacles are only rated for 75 degrees.

So..... Let me ask you. What is #4 copper romex rated for amp wise?

What is 1/0 (one aught) aluminum SER (Type SE) rated for amp wise?

What is 3/0 type XHHW-2 rated for not taking into account for terminals, breakers and such?

 

[madpenguin]

Dude, I totally get it. Repetitive questions get old fast. I HAVE read this thread more than once through however, it's just a lot of the terms get me pretty confused at times.

Well, don't hesitate to ask about the terms used. I'll explain them.

That 120v flip tutorial is something I'm definitely looking forward too. I've found a few, and some of them look legit... but what do I know? I'm digging this thread quite a bit. Any chance for that tutorial within say...3 weeks?

Yea. I'll start on it tomorrow. I just don't know if I should keep it down to a one ballast/2 hood flip or go for a 2 ballast/4 hood flip. I have a DPDT and a SPDT relay so I could do either.

You might want to read that flip/flop thread that turned into a pissing match between the commercial flip/flop makers. Has some good info in it.

 

[JMasta]

My vote goes for the 2 ballast/4 hood flip.

Thanks for all your help answering questions here. I have learned a lot just reading your posts.

 

[madpenguin]

My vote goes for the 2 ballast/4 hood flip.

That's probably what I was going to do. I use 2 600's right now but I'm going to expand and make another bloom room right next to my existing one.

One 2 ballast flip unit will be cheaper to make than 2 1 ballast flip units. Takes up less space too.

Since it's a 120v only flip, I won't be switching the neutrals. Making a 2 ballast 240v flip would be more complicated. Or rather would take a larger enclosure to handle the extra relay.

 

[RipVanWeed]

Penguin,

I FIGURED the Red section of the chart was amps. I am not an electrician, I am simply asking an expert for clarity.

Rather than give me a straight answer to anything, you keep telling me to refer to charts packed with the terms and acronyms that I'm not familiar with.

I went elsewhere and got clear answers from someone else, in a couple of simple exchanges.

Yes, you did sense an attitude, very frustrating and a waste of time to deal with you. I too sense an attitude, seems like you want to talk shop with fellow sparkies, rather than explain anything to someone seeking info.

This thread should be called "MadPenguin's Electricity For Electricians".

I won't waste anymore of your time,

 

[SmokinErb]

I'm with the 2 ballast/4 hood as well...being as that's exactly what I'm making myself.

I think I've read that pissing match already lol. FlipBox vs. Someothercompany. I admire company loyalty but some people take it too far. It got old reading post after post of attacks on the "opposing" companies methods. I almost just bought a couple of FlipBox's but why do that when I can build one for less than half the price of a single unit?

Regardless, about the flip... what type of relay should I get? I know you said you were going to do that tutorial, but shipping takes time I'm looking to do a 2 ballast to 4 hood flip on 120v 30A. Figure I'll go ahead and order the parts that I can't get at the hardware store. I think I need DPDT? Not sure about that, SPDT's are for 1-to-2 relays am I right?

 

[SmokinErb]

@Rip - Dude, you've got a punk-ass attitude.

 

[Fraggle Rock]

I'm pretty sure madpenguin has saved some lives with ALL the advice he has given in this forum...

 

[stink.whistler]

...

Yes, you did sense an attitude, very frustrating and a waste of time to deal with you. I too sense an attitude, seems like you want to talk shop with fellow sparkies, rather than explain anything to someone seeking info.

This thread should be called "MadPenguin's Electricity For Electricians".

I won't waste anymore of your time,

MadPenguin is one of the most patient, helpful posters on the entire site. His explanations seem to be clear enough for most non electricians - no offense, but honestly you might want to consider hiring an electrician rather than DIY. I'm not sure what advise you got elsewhere that helped, but they might have left some important things out - something MP never does.

Regardless, best of luck.

 

[madpenguin]

Penguin,

I FIGURED the Red section of the chart was amps. I am not an electrician, I am simply asking an expert for clarity.

Rather than give me a straight answer to anything, you keep telling me to refer to charts packed with the terms and acronyms that I'm not familiar with.

I went elsewhere and got clear answers from someone else, in a couple of simple exchanges.

Yes, you did sense an attitude, very frustrating and a waste of time to deal with you. I too sense an attitude, seems like you want to talk shop with fellow sparkies, rather than explain anything to someone seeking info.

This thread should be called "MadPenguin's Electricity For Electricians".

I won't waste anymore of your time,

Wow..... I don't get it. I really don't. I guess your just having a bad day... You really aught to try and not rip on people when all they are trying to do is help you (on their own time for free).

I try not to give direct answers especially when the answer is staring you right in the face. I like to have people think on their own and learn something in the process instead of me hand holding 24/7.....

Just because you are too lazy to sit down and read this thread (or even look at a simple chart) and perhaps increase your overall knowledge in the process, doesn't mean that I am here to serve at your every whim.

Help me help you. But being nasty about it is uncalled for and rather rude. I hope you got the correct advice from dude because this is nothing to fuck around with.

 

[madpenguin]

Regardless, about the flip... what type of relay should I get? I know you said you were going to do that tutorial, but shipping takes time I'm looking to do a 2 ballast to 4 hood flip on 120v 30A. Figure I'll go ahead and order the parts that I can't get at the hardware store. I think I need DPDT? Not sure about that, SPDT's are for 1-to-2 relays am I right?

You got it. For a 120v 2 ballast/4 hood flip you'd want a DPDT.

For a 120v 1 ballast/2 hood flip you'd want a SPDT.

For a 240v 2 ballast/4 hood flip you'd want 2 DPDT relays.

For a 240v 1 ballast/2 hood flip you'd want 1 DPDT relay.

This is due to NEC requirements and safety. You can build a 240v 2 ballast/4 hood flip with just one DPDT relay but don't ever try to service any of the unlit reflectors unless the entire system is powered down.

Here is the shitter for us pee-ons who can't buy from DSM&T..... For a 2 ballast/4 hood flip when you use Sunlight reflectors and Galaxy ballasts, you have to buy 4 extension cords at roughly 11 bucks a pop plus shipping. Plus, for anyone who lives on the east coast or even mid-west, shipping is going to be brutal. You might be better off to find a company one state away (so you don't pay sales tax) and pay the extra $2.50 a piece for them @12.95 per from another company than the one listed below.

http://www.horticulturesource.com/s...2661/?osCsid=519927c1bb52d81e0c0f6072751c2b52

Here is a place based out of NY. Shipping is easier on the wallet than the link above if you live on the East Coast.

http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddeta...0/CategoryID/12000.0/SubCatID/2845.0/file.htm

You need 2 of the male plug ends and all 4 of the female receptacle ends. All the cord in between goes into the damn trash except for a couple feet on 2 of the male ends. I almost want to buy the 14 gauge ones just to be anal. Those are 16 a pop I think....

Does that suck or what? This is where it would be helpful to know someone who is in the flip/flop business, otherwise we have to go the above route and waste some money.

Don't try buying these because they won't work for the female ends.

http://www.marinedepot.com/Sunlight...Sunlight_Supply_Inc-SL2917-FILTACBAMH-vi.html

Regardless, you can still build one cheaper than one of the commercial units. As long as you have a dremel, a 16.5 mm HSS drill bit and attention to detail along with some free time.

BTW, get your relays at Grainger. Chances are you have one in your town.

You'll need a standard SJO cord from Lowes.

One of these restraints.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-...RAIN-RELIEF-FOR-SJT-SJO-ROUND-CABLES/-/1.html

Notice it says .625" mounting hole. That's where the 16.5 mm drill bit comes into play. Then a light dremel sanding on the inside of the hole should get you the rest of the way.

You need one of these.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ACS-31/15-AMP-GROUNDED-OUTLET/-/1.html

Actually, one of these might work better but then you need a crimper and some terminals.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ACS-39/SNAP-IN-NEMA-15-5-RECEPTACLE/-/1.html

You need a 6x6x4 steel enclosure. One that has no knockouts. Cost me about 10 bucks at my local electric supply house.

You need a small ground bar kit. I always use the Cuttler-Hammer 5 space ones. 4 bucks maybe.

Crap. I think that's about it. Keep in mind I haven't built this thing yet. It's all in my head and not even on paper. Don't get pissed if the parts list will change. I am however positive about the cords. They have a grove on them which will lock onto the enclosure when you dremel just the right size square for it.

The female receptacles that I said not to buy have a lot wider grove on them and the enclosure will not grab the receptacle and hold it securely in place. The female ends on the extension cords however have the perfect width groove that are the exact size of the thickness of the enclosure.... Hope you followed me on that.

You also need 2 more strain reliefs that will work for those ballast extension cords. You need 2 of them for the male ends. Don't know what size relief yet.