Yield problem with soil..

[Vindie$el]

What I hear from you unhemployed is that you are looking for something that provides fast growth and simplicity. I like your style. I used to use all the expensive hydro store nutes, soil and additives. None of that outperforms my current program for simplicity and results. I recycle my soil and I add back EWC, dolomite lime, blood meal, jamaican bat guano and kelp meal. This allows me flexibility to address any deficiencies or overdoses for the soil and teas if needed. I make one basic EWC tea that I water everything with so there never is any complicated feeding schedules. I'm using the tea to populate and water the soil not feed. I make the tea run 24-7 and I make just enough tea that I will use in it's window of freshness. I also see very rapid growth as well as better quality in taste and smoke.

[/url]

My approximate soil add backs starting with about 10 to 12 gallons of used soil which I chop up and leave all the roots in and pull the big chunks out before I use it. I let the soil break down about 2 weeks before amending it and let it cook for at least a month before use. I add 2 gallons of EWC 1/2 cup blood meal, 1 cup high P guano, 2 cups Kelp meal and a touch of perlite as needed.

My tea is made in one bucket and diluted to use about 5 parts water to 1 part tea. I add 4-5 cups of EWC, 5 tbs molasses and 6 oz of liquid karma.

I have yet to see a plant of any species that doesn't like this tea. My houseplants have never looked better.

I have always held the opinion that a lot of the other forums on this site are dominated by people who own hydro stores and are demonstrating how to use their products. It's like the lather rinse repeat thing on the shampoo bottle. You really don't need to wash your hair that much but the manufacturer sells more if you do. That's how I feel about those full line of nutrients and additives. Sure they work but at the end of they day I was left wondering was there a better way? Did I really need all of this. Then I think about this guy I went to school with who had these awesome golden curly hair and kind of looked like what Robert Plant or Roger Daultry would if they had perfect hair. I asked him what he did and he said I never use harsh unnatural soaps and only wash my hair when it actually gets dirty. Sometimes less is better.

The inconceivable nature of nature!- Richard Feynman

 

[Vindie$el]

Oh and I get 1gpw easy and this summer I am shooting for the 1.5 gpw mark. I can veg a plant (indica dominant) from clone to a 2 foot tall bush in 30 days in this program so yields and speed of growth are not a problem.

 

[mad librettist]

I used to use all the expensive hydro store nutes, soil and additives. None of that outperforms my current program for simplicity and results. I recycle my soil and I add back EWC, dolomite lime, blood meal, jamaican bat guano and kelp meal.

That's not recycling, that's just the intended purpose of soil mix! It's the hydro store nuts and some weird social phenomenon that have us believing that throwing away perfectly good soil is normal.

So... are you ready to go even more simple? As in not even mixing up the soil between plantings? You can top dress, bury a bit of food, and drop in a fistful of your worms. Also, during growth, top dress with the next run in mind, and the run after that.

 

[Vindie$el]

I like how you think mad l. I go back the title of the 3lb thread "soil heresy" that says it all. When I was taught a method of "organic" growing which was first pro-mix straight out of the bag watered with botanicare nutrients. I was told to use grow bags because they were easier to throw away instead of tapping out rootballs. Think of good soil double wrapped in plastic buried in landfills. I wish I had that soil back. My how we learn. That's how flawed my knowledge was back then. I thought soil was best out of the bag and the microherd was the enemy. I also thought a pound per light was OK too!

 

[mad librettist]

roots are full of good stuff! they should be left in the container for sure, so the critters can make humus out of them.

 

[NUG-JUG]

Everyone here who is having success with this or other organic soil seems to be letting it cook for awhile. Is two weeks about the minimum to get the herd rockin?

 

[SELFHEMPLOYED]

Hey guys, wow I was gone for a day and the thread gained three pages!

Fiirst of all I have no problem at all growing in organic soil with organic nutes, yes it is fairly easy to grow this way, BUT my goal is to incorporate the tropf blumats into my new project (which I will be able to spend only minimal time) so that I can in a sense "set it and forget it" I have had more than excellent results using the R.O. soil and biobizz line of nutrients but want to do this to reduce cost, and work AND have just as good if not better herb.


which brings me to my next point...

Have youguys checked my thread in my signature? Variety is the spice of life and currently I have 18 plants flowering and 13 different strains. Obviously they don't all want the same thing at the same time so this has created more work for me than I'd like. With a water only "super soil" They all get the same thing EVERY time, water lol.


Vindiesel.... Whats with the "unhemployed"??? I am achieving roughly 1.4-1.8 # per light and thats in a 4x4 space with all different plants. I like my regimen a lot and I have it relatively dialed yet I'm still not satisfied. This next setup will be a northern farmer style stadium with much less plants and hope to achieve gpw or over.

Jaykush.... Thanks for all your help! lol since posting this thread I read all 50 something pages on his site about it and read just about every question (and answer)you can think of. I think sub is erring on the safe side by saying that it is too "hot" for seedlings and clones. My friend recently transplanted clones straight from 4in pots into straight super soil and they only got very minor tip burn. I think the whole key to this is that I didn't use enough bone/blood meal and the biggest factor is not letting them grow into their pot. I think with certain strains (like my picky S.A.G.E.) you would only want maybe half a pot of the super soil but for most plants they can take it with little or no buffer.

Nugjug... The recommended cook time is at least 30 days and he says the longer you let it go the better. fwiw

I actually didn't mind the intelligent conversation on molasses and benes. I realize it is a controversial subject. i have actually browsed the teaming with microbes book. I've flushed with straight water and with molasses and honestly couldn't detect a difference so I stopped. I do have to admit that currently the science behind the organic soil and how everything works together is above my head. (for now, I'm trying!).


Here is a few pics of my R.O soil with biobizz nute plants. Also check my thread in my signature it's harvest time and I'm rocking some great cuts, come check it out there will be lots of bud porn in the next few days!

Appalachia (Green Crack x Tres Dawg)

Bubba D (Chemdawg D x Pre98)

The White

OG

Reservoir Chem DD

Reservoir Alpha Diesel

Williams Wonder

 

[Vindie$el]

Selfhemployed - I apologize man I was really baked last night and after re-reading I was not grasping everything you said and I even messed up on your name. sorry man. But I do have information that may help. I did a side by side comparison with my current soil mix watered with water that was pH adjusted with Liquid Karma to 6.5 and my tea and the tea with it's 5 plants yielded 16 oz total and the 5 plants fed the tea pulled 18oz. Liquid Karma is OK to use in drip systems.

 

[milehighmedical]

.

 

[Vindie$el]

6 gallon pots and my soil was listed previously. I re-use my soil and use 1/2 cup blood meal, 1 cup high P guano and 2 cups of Kelp meal, 2 gallons of EWC per 12 gallons of semi composted used soil with some perlite added by sight. Mt tea is made in a 5 gallon bucket with 4-5 gallons of water, 4-5 cups of EWC, 5 tbs molasses and 6oz Liquid Karma. I put 10 plants around a 1K hortilux hung vertically with the plants in a 5 ft circle around the lights 18"-24'" from the light. I finish my plants between 3-4 ft tall and straight up un-topped and forming a tight circle around a 1K. My environment is dialed in running about 50% RH and 70-85 F but usually just under 80 F. They were all the same phenotype of Mazar and cloned from the same 2 mothers. The most vigorous of 18 were selected. The point I was trying to make was that in my search for a set it and forget it type set-up. I used my tea and a yardstick to see if I could feasibly yield similar results with a system conducive to drip irrigation. So if I were to take on a role as caregiver for many people I could set up a drip system and grow my vertical trees with little effort and time devoted yet yielding similar and achieving similar quality. From my experiment I gather that I could use my existing soil mix effectively with a drip. I did hand water both groups in my test but my watering style is a very low run-off style and I keep the soil moist all the time similar to a drip system. I believe the whole super soil thing works better if the soil never dries out.

 

[SELFHEMPLOYED]

can someone tell me what ewc is

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

Earth Worm Castings

 

[chef]

Hey Self
I'd say at least 60% of my sweetness is from EWC, if not more.
Seriously, if I had to give up brix or ewc? brix/molasses is history.

Your shit looks dank. There's only so many shortcuts you can take IME & still pump out dank like your pics

cheers

 

[SELFHEMPLOYED]

Hey Self
I'd say at least 60% of my sweetness is from EWC, if not more.
Seriously, if I had to give up brix or ewc? brix/molasses is history.

Your shit looks dank. There's only so many shortcuts you can take IME & still pump out dank like your pics

cheers

Ahh got ya the "E" threw me off. ^^^ I used 25 pounds of worm castings in the last super soil and the revised recipe calls for 25-50 pounds rather than just 25 so maybe I'll go with 40 pounds or so per batch. Does this sound overkill? Or can you even go overkill with Ewc?

 

[NUG-JUG]

30 days cook time hmm patience...thanks for the tip.

You cannot burn a plant easily with ewc...but a plant can only use so much of any ammendment before it starts to become a waste of $. It's like a person who has a ton of food in front of them. They're not going to eat more than a few pounds since it's all they can handle. Imo when you're getting an acceptable yield with minimal nutes is when you've nailed you're mix\teas.

I'm not there yet but I'm glad to see more organics and less huff in CO!

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L,

I think someone forgot to tell that to my plants.

Whatever the system, you can pull the same yield if you do it right. Yield is 90% genetics, and 10% grower.

That is a common misconception, but yield is a pheotypical trait which means it is (basically) dependent upon 50% genetics (genotype) and 50% environment (from the grower). If yield was a genotype trait then I would agree it's 90% genetics and 10% grower. An example of a genotypical trait is the cannabis chemotype; it's controlled by genotype and thus the grower has little impact upon chemotype.

HTH

 

[VerdantGreen]

depends what you call environment - i would say yield is about technique as well. physically getting the buds packed in. getting everything else right , soil, environment etc will only take you so far, good genetics will help too

but if you can pack a dozen colas into a square foot like this (actually there is one missing on the bottom row) - thats when you will get over 1g/watt with any strain and over 1.5g/watt with a good yielding strain. this plant used 62.5 watts of HPS light (a quarter of a 250) and yielded nearly 3 ounces

V.

 

[secondtry]

People who know nothing about the molasses added at the end have noted an increase in flavor/sweetness. This was with a well know cut. I will clarify and say that I don't think the molasses it's self is adding sweetness to the pot, like adding sugar to coffee, but IS affecting the sweetness in some other way. Somehow, molasses is shall we say, influencing bioflavonoids albeit indirectly.
I've been doing this long enough not to be fooled by "wives tales"
I am however a sucker for wives tails

I have to disagree with you on that point. When I have time I will find some studies so we can really pin it down. The addition of molasses should not effect the flavor nor smell of cannabis (e.g. terpenoids and flavinoids, etc), to effect flavinoids add UV-b to your grow, not molasses.

I agree with what MadL wrote:

that's an old wive's tale. Luckily though, your senses of taste and smell are highly influenced by the story you tell yourself about food, wine, or smoke. Which is a good thing IMO, not to be ashamed of.

I was just reading teaming with microbes. Molasses just increases total microbial biomass (bacteria mostly). That raises pH slightly, and increases predator activity if protozoans are present (they should be). Increased predator activity (eating bacteria) means more predator poop, which is includes mineralized N.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "flushing" crowd claims N at the end ruins a crop. So either they are wrong (quite possible), you are wrong (also possible), or I have misunderstood the whole thing (very possible).

Let's be clear though, that your plant does not drink sugar through a straw, but rather makes its own from light, water, and CO2, and the sugar it trades for nutrients would be competing for attention with molasses. So you would get more N, and less of the nutrients your plant was trading for. Further, ever smoked sugar? It's not sweet! i suspect what we call "sweet" in smoke has nothing to do with sugar. It's something you smell, just like 99% of the other flavors you know. The only things you taste are bitter, salt, sweet (actual sugar or other sweet tasting compound), sour, and I think umami is also on the tongue.

I say, leave the molasses alone unless you need it to balance your microherd.

 

[secondtry]

Hey VG,

Nice pic

depends what you call environment - i would say yield is about technique as well. physically getting the buds packed in. getting everything else right , soil, environment etc will only take you so far, good genetics will help too

All of those are what I term environment, being what the grower provides to the plant and how the grower grows the plant (ie. LST, etc, in terms of light usage).

 

[secondtry]

Edit: double post