Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems

[Microbeman]

By PGRs, I assume you mean plant growth regulators. I do not look at things sliced up like that; rather as a whole. Not only would these be available in the bagged up castings but [provided they were in good condition when bagged and not wet] there will be sequestered nutrients and microbes in dormant form which will emerge just the same as they emerge from extract. You really gotta get looking down that tube. There will likely be some ionic form nutrient. Some worm castings sellers advertise nutrients are directly available to plants. I don't buy it. Otherwise they would all leach out in the first 24 hours (if watered). [probably exxagerated]

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

Yup the PGRs you have correct. And as soon as I order a brewer from CTGuy in a few weeks I will start using your scope, I promise! I would have already but I have no compost left from last summer, I spread it all on the dirt my landlord called soil, now I have a lawn

I agree about PGRs and nutrients and wrote that EWC hold PGRs and elements and there ions available to plants. For sure there are sequestrated elements but there are also a good amount of bioavailable ions, ex., much of the Total N in EWC is nitrates, the same for non-fungal dominant compost. The ions don't leach out en mass because the CEC and AEC of soilless media (and soils) helps hold the ions as do the biofilms, humus fraction, etc, along with smaller pores (micro and ultramicro) and lower levels of media due to higher water tensions. Your correct that media with little/low CEC, or med/high CEC and low bulk density will not hold ions well and much of the ions will be flushed out with plain water; but that is why I am adding EWC (and compost and zeolite) in the first place, to increase CEC and bulk density which will hold the ions and limit the flushing of ions.

I see things as a whole too (or I try to) but in terms of EWC many studies find the PGRs are what gives the plant benefit. That is not to say PGRs are the only thing good about EWC, not at all.

One other thing about EWC is much sold and used by people does not have the soil food web like compost does, unless I am mistaken I don't think EWC in bins holds the soil food web.

All the best

 

[secondtry]

FWIW:

Adding lime (for example to peat) raises the CEC of media, and adding humic acid also raises CEC by (at least) helping to form the Ca-clay-humus aggregate (ie., the "clay-humus crumb" of CMC). That is why I add azomite and calcidic lime (for Ca), zeolite (clay for CEC) and humic acid powder to the media, they work together with microbes to from the aggregate which increases the humus fraction and the CEC.

 

[Microbeman]

unless I am mistaken I don't think EWC in bins holds the soil food web.

Well mine does, more so than any compost I've examined and it would blow away any compost report (soilfood web) I've seen from SFI. If you look at the DVDs; all of that is from my vermicompost. A lot of the literature is just plain wrong because of 'things' being examined in isolation.

Edit; the soil food web [infantile term] or microbial nutrient cycling consortia can be clearly seen. It is not some mysterious measurement available from a lab. Yet in almost every study I've read nobody just puts the stuff on a microscope slide. Instead they look for isolated microbes. Even SFI does this. It's like wearing blinders. It is the major downfall of universities.

 

[Cannalicious]

So, I am wondering why mycorrhiza aren't being used or discussed. Comments? Thanks

 

[Microbeman]

So, I am wondering why mycorrhiza aren't being used or discussed. Comments? Thanks

look for a recent thread

 

[Dave Coulier]

FWIW:

Adding lime (for example to peat) raises the CEC of media, and adding humic acid also raises CEC by (at least) helping to form the Ca-clay-humus aggregate (ie., the "clay-humus crumb" of CMC). That is why I add azomite and calcidic lime (for Ca), zeolite (clay for CEC) and humic acid powder to the media, they work together with microbes to from the aggregate which increases the humus fraction and the CEC.

Since were on the subject of humates, do you prefer powder form over liquid, or do you incorporate both? Im currently using GO Diamond Black(a liquid) that I got for free. Ive thought about using powders as well, but not sure if its really necessary.

On a side note: I got my replacement screen in today, and it was wavier than the other! I was able to straighten it out pretty well just using the ground and my palm. I even told them I needed a straight screen. Oh well. It'll still work pretty well.

 

[secondtry]

Hey MM,

Well mine does, more so than any compost I've examined and it would blow away any compost report (soilfood web) I've seen from SFI.

Great, that is why I always ask for you opinion on vermiculture issues. However, most people are not lucky enough to be able to practice vermiculture like you do; most of us use indoor bins...

If you look at the DVDs; all of that is from my vermicompost. A lot of the literature is just plain wrong because of 'things' being examined in isolation.

Not that I read, I make sure to read work which looks at 'things' as a whole; you can't get much more whole than soil respiration.

Edit; the soil food web [infantile term] or microbial nutrient cycling consortia can be clearly seen.

What term would you prefer? SFW is commonly used in academia and elsewhere. It aptly describes the phenomenon and the needed players, does it not?

It is not some mysterious measurement available from a lab. Yet in almost every study I've read nobody just puts the stuff on a microscope slide.

I have read some studies that do, but plate count tells you little about microbe activity in media, that is what soil respiration measurements are for; IMO they go hand in hand with plate counts, that is how I plan to do it anyway.

Instead they look for isolated microbes.

Most studies I source look at soil respiration, OM decomposition, nutrient cycling and plate counts, not generally individual microbes genus or species. I agree too many people are stuck on individual microbes. That is the main gripe of the owner of Worm Power.

Even SFI does this. It's like wearing blinders. It is the major downfall of universities.

I think you maybe have not read the work I have, there is lots of lit studying what you want, re: plate counts. Granted not as much as with soil respiration or nutrient cycling but the reason being some people and scientists think plate counts is isolating microbes too much considering how little we know about their functions and interactions when looking at the totally of soil microbiology...


HTH

 

[secondtry]

Since were on the subject of humates, do you prefer powder form over liquid, or do you incorporate both? Im currently using GO Diamond Black(a liquid) that I got for free. Ive thought about using powders as well, but not sure if its really necessary.

I don't have a preference really in the stuff most people use, I like to use a humic acid liquid with pH of 5.5 or so, most humic acid has high(er) pH.

On a side note: I got my replacement screen in today, and it was wavier than the other! I was able to straighten it out pretty well just using the ground and my palm. I even told them I needed a straight screen. Oh well. It'll still work pretty well.

Ha, thanks. I plan to put a thick hardware cloth below the screen so it will be stable. I plan to attached the small screen to the hardware cloth and put them into a frame.

But I also am going to use FOF 30 along with my mix side by side.

 

[mad librettist]

Hey MM,



Great, that is why I always ask for you opinion on vermiculture issues. However, most people are not lucky enough to be able to practice vermiculture like you do; most of us use indoor bins...

meaning our worms shit something different?

 

[secondtry]

@ MM,

How would you do plate counts from media with a plant growing in it? It seems doing a plate count from run off would not be representative nor accurate, but I would rather not take samples of media if I can help it. I want to combine the plate count data with the soil respiration data (once it is divided into Co2 from OM decomposition and Co2 from the rhizosphere). That should provide an accurate picture of the media microbiology type, quantity and activity. What are you thoughts about method to do plate counts, that is how to get sample for the slide?

Thanks

 

[secondtry]

Hey Mad.L.,

Secondtry wrote:
Hey MM,

Great, that is why I always ask for you opinion on vermiculture issues. However, most people are not lucky enough to be able to practice vermiculture like you do; most of us use indoor bins...

meaning our worms shit something different?

No, but worms don't provide the full soil food web anyway. Outdoor bins have much more access to the complete range of indigenous microbes which make up the soil food web. Especially those which are in direct contact with healthy soil. I am not saying our EWC are bad, just I doubt they offer as wide of a microbial array as does MM's which are outside and not in a bin with a lid (I assume).

 

[The End Is Near]

Anyone want to give me the gist of what organic system worked best? I took one look at the article and said screw that.

 

[secondtry]

Hey TEIS,

Basically here it is:

A soilless media similar to Fafard FOF 30 soilless media was mixed with 15% EWC (vol/vol). Earth Juice full line provided as good of growth and yield of tomato plant and of tomatoes as the control chemical fertilizer. The other organic product studied was Magna Gro products and it performed as well as EJ and better than in one regard because the Magna Gro is not as 'hot' as EJ while still offering the same (statistically) results as the control and as EJ.

What to take home:

You may want to check out Fafard FOF 30 soilless mix and consider adding some EWC, while using EJ after it's been bubbled/aerated for a few days. Nothing spectacularly new but it offers data and figures and neat pH info I was unaware of before.

HTH

 

[Microbeman]

Sorry to disillusion but I was speaking about my indoor bins. I just don't like SFW because it is used by and claimed by SFI. Where I consider this research to be much more advanced in Europe the term microbial nutrient loop or cycle is oft used but I don't really care. I'm just being silly. How can respiration readings show the ratio of protozoa to bacteria to fungi? Maybe they can but I doubt it.

I have a long (10 inch) cocktail spoon which I can take growing rhizosphere samples with for analysis. I don't do plating but there is no reason you could not plate these media samples.

BTW, SFI cannot do species typing.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

Hmmm, indoor bins eh? If it wasn't you I would call you out for some more tangible info, but I believe what you write. That's interesting and not what I expected, I stand corrected, thanks. Have you seen other tests from indoor bins? I don't have bins going right because I'm on the move but when I have mine going again I be sure to check it out. Im curious, do you add any foodstuff from outside like manure which would bring in microbes? Most people just put kitchen scraps, etc, in the bins.

Soil respiration wont' tell you ratios, that is why I say it's best to use soil respiration with plate counts for the whole picture, either alone doesn't tell us enough IMO.

Thanks for the info about taking samples, that will be useful and I will make some nice graphs of the data.

 

[Microbeman]

I use sphagnum peat, kelp meal, alfalfa meal which certainly introduces microbes. I've not examined anyone elses bin vermi.

Sorry I was not more helpful with an idea. Pretty plain just digging in there.

Not too many studies plate bacteria, fungi and protozoa that I know of. Stand to be corrected though.

 

[mad librettist]

No, but worms don't provide the full soil food web anyway. Outdoor bins have much more access to the complete range of indigenous microbes which make up the soil food web. Especially those which are in direct contact with healthy soil. I am not saying our EWC are bad, just I doubt they offer as wide of a microbial array as does MM's which are outside and not in a bin with a lid (I assume).

weren't you just on a thread where I described throwing small amounts of outdoor soil in my bins? Plus, I get insect visitors from outside.

That's just two vehicles for microbial transfer. I'm sure they are others. Keeping microbes out is a lot harder than inviting them in. In a container, the worm is to me the organism that completes the poop loop.

To me, worms are a special predator that can develop a web of life ready to favor plants. I would not be surprised if this meant keeping a constant stock of plant friendly organisms around.

 

[secondtry]

Hey MM,

Sorry I was not more helpful with an idea. Pretty plain just digging in there.

No worries about the media sample, I assumed I was going to have to take a media sample but I was hoping to avoid that with some type of mathematical model like the kinds used when enumerating by direction observation.

Not too many studies plate bacteria, fungi and protozoa that I know of. Stand to be corrected though.

A few papers I have handy are below are about plate counts, I find more on-topic papers by using the search terms on Google scholar (with quotes) "direct enumeration" + soil; and "direct enumeration" + bacteria; and I also use (without quotes) "direct enumeration" + soil; and "direct enumeration" + bacteria; etc. I also use the topic I am interested like (with quotes) "direct microscopic enumeration" + soil + compost; or "direct enumeration" + soil + no-till, etc.

Have you read much about using mesofauna (nematodes) to model the rest of the (down stream) soil food web? Neat stuff for sure and it's current too. I can post references and full text if you'd like, I have been saving them for you in case you wanted to read them.

Julia Foght and Jackie Aislabie. 2005.

Enumeration of Soil Microorganisms
Soil Biology. Monitoring and Assessing Soil Bioremediation. Volume 5, pp. 261-280. 10.1007/3-540-28904-6. 2005.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k3r8350574527406/
​

J. P. Taylora, B. Wilsona, M. S. Millsb and R. G. Burns. 2002.

Comparison of microbial numbers and enzymatic activities in surface soils and subsoils using various techniques
Soil Biology and Biochemistry. Volume 34, Issue 3, March 2002, Pages 387-401. doi:10.1016/S0038-0717(01)00199-7
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0038071701001997
​

L. M. Polyanskaya, M. Kh. Orazova1, A. Burkanova1 and D. G. Zvyagintsev. 2000.

Microsampling of rhizosphere soil and laboratory artifacts
Microbiology. Volume 69, Number 4 / July, 2000. pp. 486-489. 10.1007/BF02756775
​

W Yu, WK Dodds, MK Banks, J Skalsky and EA Strauss. 1995

Optimal Staining and Sample Storage Time for Direct Microscopic Enumeration of Total and Active Bacteria in Soil with Two Fluorescent Dyes
Appl. Environ. Microbiol., Sep 1995, 3367-3372, Vol 61, No. 9. 1995, American Society for Microbiology
​

HTH

 

[secondtry]

The last paper is less about what you do and teach but I think its interesting and offers valuable info.

All the best