How to properly mix raw neem oil and other horticultural oils

[Clackamas Coot]

can't just shake up Einstein Oil no way. I usually heat it up in an electric water boiler/kettle at 1:1 water to oil. never tried a blender, good idea.

B. Friendly

Save yourself a TON of money and switch from the Einstein Oil product over to the Dyna-Gro Neem Tree Seed Oil.

I've done my research on the levels of active agents and the proverbial 'gold standard' is met and exceeded by the Dyna-Gro product.

YMMV

CC

 

[growclean]

Thanks for the tips on the pro-tekt.

 

[mad librettist]

B. Friendly

Save yourself a TON of money and switch from the Einstein Oil product over to the Dyna-Gro Neem Tree Seed Oil.

I've done my research on the levels of active agents and the proverbial 'gold standard' is met and exceeded by the Dyna-Gro product.

YMMV

CC

And is it not met or exceeded by einstein oil? Could we see some sources? Maybe in a new thread? I'm hoping lurkers and searchers can just read about how to mix it up here, not comments on whether to use something they've already decided to use. We are also covering all oils, not just neem.

from wiki:

Energy input through shaking, stirring, homogenizing, or spray processes are needed to initially form an emulsion. Over time, emulsions tend to revert to the stable state of the phases comprising the emulsion; an example of this is seen in the separation of the oil and vinegar components of Vinaigrette, an unstable emulsion that will quickly separate unless shaken continuously.

Edit: from http://www.ifr.ac.uk/Materials/fractures/emulsions.html

Emulsions are a subset of the subject of colloids, which refers to a dispersion of particles or droplets through a liquid. Emulsions are quite different from hard particle dispersions. Large droplets, above say 10 microns in diameter, are relatively soft and deformable. Smaller droplets, say about 2 micron diameter, are more like hard spheres (due to their Laplace pressure).

Basically, what I'm doing is homogenizing (I think? EDIT: no, I'm not, I'm reducing droplet size.). I'd like to see some pics of some neem oil emulsions so we can really see what makes a good one. I've ordered some protekt, but if anyone has some others like yucca, a shake test, followed by waiting two minutes after pouring into a clear container would be great. What I'm looking for is the elimination of a distinct oil layer, the product of what's called "creaming" (upside down sedimentation). My guess is that no emulsifier on the planet can make the droplet sizes any smaller, since the oil is not actually soluble in the emulsifier. All your emulsifier does is coat the droplets you make and prevents them from joining up with other droplets and precipitating. Notice the density of a coated droplet is about that of water. Otherwise it would still float or would sink. Since it's a colloid, it has some properties of solutions.

I dont know how long neem oil stays active once emulsified when mixed my way, but when I forget to empty the leftovers, the next time I get my sprayer it hasn't seperated. So at least a couple days? I haven't poured it out to see if there's any creaming.

Do you guys just apply neem oil when you detect insects or do you apply it as a preventive measure?

I probably am one of the luckiest of growers. I haven't had a single gnat, fly, or mite in my garden for the past 4 years or at least been able to detect them. I stock up on lady bugs and set about 50-100 free into the flowering room once a month.

touchy question. I started a thread on this with integrated pest management in the title. I suggest we discuss it on that thread instead of this one, which hopefully will be a searchable record of how best to mix up oils of all kind with water, and not a flame war. Lots of people search and read without posting, so let's think of them.

 

[dub 6]

It's my 'opinion' and little more that if a person does not use some form of an emulsifier (horticultural soap, yucca extract, liquid silicon, whatever) the level of active ingredients will not be consistent regardless of how hard you shake it.

The viscosity of pure cold-processed neem tree seed oil (like Dyna-Gro's product) is about 25x that of motor oil - probably more.

Breaking up the oil solids (via an emulsifier) is mandatory to achieve the results that you're look for in using these types of products.

Having said that, the neem tree seed meal (what's left after the pressing of the neem oil) may be a better alternative if you don't want to use the required (again IMHO) emulsifier.

Rate of usage: 2 tsp. of kelp meal and bubble/aerate for 24 hours. Then add 1/2 cup of neem seed meal (aka neem seed cake) and aerate for another 24 hours. This is for 1 gallon of tea.

Spray and completely douche the plant. Do this for 2x per week to prevent spider mites and/or powdery mildew.

"The prevention of powdery mildew and/or spider mites is far, far easier than trying to fight an infestation" - Clackamas Coot.

YMMV but hopefully this information will be helpful.

CC

thanks for the knowledge. how should neem oil/yucca extract solutions be prepared? ratio?

 

[mad librettist]

Not to pick but it can't be done. You can only make an emulsion not a solution.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

thanks for the knowledge. how should neem oil/yucca extract solutions be prepared? ratio?

dub 6

If you're using Dyna-Gro Neem Tree Seed Oil the recommend amount is 1 tsp. per QUART of water. Before adding the water you would want to add an equal amount of yucca extract. I add 1 cup of tepid water (not hot water) to make sure that the emulsified mix is completely mixed in that first cup of water.

Then add the other 3 cups of water and shake to make sure everything is 'emulsified' and you're ready to apply.

HTH

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Einstein Oil vs. pure neem seed oil

Besides costing 4-5x more, Einstein is NOT pure neem seed oil. According to the manufacturer Einstein Oil is 'enhanced' with any number of 'herbal extractions' which they decline to state what they are.

Lovely.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Thanks CC, that's informative. I've only ever used Dyna-grow.

I've noticed you use twice as much emulsifier as I do. Another advantage to using a machine like a hand blender is you don't need as much emulsifier. I'd still like to see you run a test with your current method to see how much creaming you get if any, and how long it stays in emulsion. That's the only test of how small and hard your oil bubbles are.

I'd also like to suggest you can use 1/2 tsp per quart of neem oil and 1/4tsp emulsifier if using it as a preventive (assuming you use a blender). It's supposed to be effective at that concentration, and leaves you some wiggle room if something does come up.

 

[NUG-JUG]

The viscosity of pure cold-processed neem tree seed oil (like Dyna-Gro's product) is about 25x that of motor oil - probably more.

Breaking up the oil solids (via an emulsifier) is mandatory to achieve the results that you're look for in using these types of products.

I use Dyna Grow and the stuff won't even pour out if its not under an HPS for awhile. It's like ketchup. I'm going to Goodwill today to find an old blender since I apply neem frequently. I shake it till ive had to switch hands a couple times and it still never looks like the blended pic. The pieces of Neem are always crumb size.

I use SM-90 as an emulsifier and I just read it inhibits beneficial bacteria growth! damn I feel bad now...time to brew a tea.

 

[mad librettist]

Hey just put your dyna grow in a large bowl of hot water from the tap.

Don't put neem in tea!

 

[NUG-JUG]

i don't put neem in tea i usually glop a teaspoon into the pumpsprayer then put the whole thing in hot water. the SM-90 killing or harming my microherd is what im concerned about.

 

[mad librettist]

I got my dyna gro protekt today, and they were nice enough to send me a small neem oil bottle as well.

So far it looks good as an emulsifier. I like how it reacts at full strength with neem oil. I wonder if it may be a good insecticide for mites, aphids, etc...

I am doing a little test of it with neem oil. I just shook it in a container by hand, with 1/2 tsp of protekt and 1 tsp neem oil to a quart of water. The initial emulsion looks good, but I'll check after 5, 10, and 15 minutes for creaming.

I'll put pics up of the results.

 

[humble1]

1/2 tsp of protekt works better in a gallon than a quart.

 

[mad librettist]

hmmm the neem oil label calls for 1 1/3 tsp per gallon as an emulsifier. I was being generous with the 1/4 tsp per quart.

should I start the test over? as an emulsifier, how much should I use?

I'm impressed so far, gotta say. there is some creaming, but less than with soap. And no foam at all.

 

[humble1]

I am doing a little test of it with neem oil. I just shook it in a container by hand, with 1/2 tsp of protekt and 1 tsp neem oil to a quart of water.

1/2 tsp per quart = 2 tsp per gallon
1/4 tsp per quart = 1 tsp per gallon
less is more, but try it and find out. at the worst you'll just be wasting money.

 

[highwayman1]

im with humble on this one...............

 

[mad librettist]

pics are coming. I noticed that even with a hand blender, 1/4 tsp pro-tekt per quart did not properly emulsify 1 tsp of raw neem oil. there was significant surface slick and scum, while with double the protekt there was not.

I am testing its properties as an emulsifier, not recommending an application rate.

DARC MIND

To make a quart you would take 1 tsp. of neem seed oil and to that add 1 tsp. of liquid silicon. Stir and it immediately emulsifies the neem oil.

Add 1 cup of warm water to get things mixed then add 3 cups of tepid water and shake briefly.

Silicon is effective against both powdery mildew and spider mites in addition to bulking up the stalk and branches of a plant.


HTH

CC

actually, I am undertesting. I should be using clack's recipe.

to be clear, are you guys referring to the same thing? using it to make an insecticide?

 

[mad librettist]

Hand mixing via shake method vs hand blender

Hand mixing via shake method vs hand blender

Ok, here is the documentary photos. I got me some of this in the mail:

I will be using half the pro-tekt recommended by clackamas coot. Next I will try his recipe full strength.

recipe:
1/2 tsp pro-tekt (potassium silicate)
1tsp dyna-gro neem oil
1 qt warm water.

neem oil and pro-tekt are mixed together, then a couple cups of water are added before blending.

Let's begin with the common method of shaking. I put a lid on the container and shook and shook.

initial emulsion:

5 mins:

10 mins:

45 mins

same recipe, hand blender used:

initial

5 mins:

45 mins:

my initial reaction is that pro-tekt does not emulsify as well as dish soap at this rate of application. Even with the blender, I got some creaming around 45 minutes. But that is not saying much, because clack's recipe calls for twice the pro-tekt.

However, it is quite clear to me that using the blender resulted in a more stable emulsion. Which means the bubbles of oil are smaller, which means that the neem oil will be cover the crops more effectively and evenly. The hand blended version shows very fast creaming, meaning anyone spraying it longer than 5 minutes would be getting mostly pro-tekt, with a strong shot of neem oil whenever the sprayer is shaken and at the end of spraying. Also, as creaming occurs, the oil will stick to itself (cohesion), and to the walls of the sprayer (adhesion).

While this is a poor evaluation of pro-tekt as an emulsifier, I believe i have shown that using a blender is a must for proper application of raw neem oil and probably other oils.

 

[DARC MIND]

when using the common shake method, i personally dont fill the bottle (that im going to mix with) too or near the top. maybe 3/4 or 1/2 full of neem/water then mix,this way things get mixed better imo
oh and i got the same agave nectar!!good stuff

 

[mad librettist]

neem oil and pro-tekt are mixed together, then a couple cups of water are added before blending.

that's what i did with both methods. The remaining warm water was added after, and then I shook that too for good measure. I did not re blend with the blender.

Before the blender revelation, I had even started adding pebbles when I did the shaking.

these results are pretty damn conclusive. They also suggest that, since neem oil is commonly applied so poorly, soap or other emulsifiers on their own are a pretty damn good pesticide.