ICMAG, lets have an honest talk about LED's

[obscuredbycloud]

Is response to this thread, http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159827&page=2 I agree the OP came off as a little trollish and probably had a personal Axe to grind, which I find offensive.

However I hope this forum that I just joined is more concerned about an open and honest discussion about Marijuana cultivation then padding their pockets.

Personal edrama should be locked, I agree with locking the thread if it was based on that. However I am here to learn, and no topic should be off limits. If there is a topic that I can not discuss, I don't know why I am here.

So, let's not talk about any member or their product, but keep this discussion, not a pissing match, but about the technology of LED's and their place in Marijuana cultivation.

I'm on the fence if there is a place for LED's in my grow, however shutting down the discussion will not help people like me.

 

[SoloGro57]

Lets see how long it takes this thread to get closed.

 

[obscuredbycloud]

Let's not be dramatic about it. The issue is not the site, which I have no problem with.

Again lets not get into drama or I am sure this thread will be locked.

I really would like to read the discussion.

 

[icdog]

As a potential LED customer I am interested in what the LED will produce compared to the HID. There are claims of some LED's being comparable to a 400w HID. The question is, is the LED worth it in the comparison.

If a 126W LED compares to a 400w hps in wattage how does that compare?
One test yielded 250g with 252W of LED. If you yield .5g/w with a 400w hps then they compare in yield. Yet the LED is 4 times the cost and the LED was 2 - 126w, where 1 - 126w was claimed to compare to a 400w HPs.
Do any benefits of the LED make it worth 4 times the price of the HPS? Do gardens need to be completely reconfigured for the LED? Maby if its worth it. I'm not sure 4 times the cost is worth it.
For the LED to be worth it the yield averages would have to be in the 4g/w range.

 

[asa77sol]

deleted post

 

[Nicoli]

LED Discussion attempt number 500.. here we go. Tagged

 

[Frozenguy]

As a potential LED customer I am interested in what the LED will produce compared to the HID. There are claims of some LED's being comparable to a 400w HID. The question is, is the LED worth it in the comparison.

If a 126W LED compares to a 400w hps in wattage how does that compare?
One test yielded 250g with 252W of LED. If you yield .5g/w with a 400w hps then they compare in yield. Yet the LED is 4 times the cost and the LED was 2 - 126w, where 1 - 126w was claimed to compare to a 400w HPs.
Do any benefits of the LED make it worth 4 times the price of the HPS? Do gardens need to be completely reconfigured for the LED? Maby if its worth it. I'm not sure 4 times the cost is worth it.
For the LED to be worth it the yield averages would have to be in the 4g/w range.

What you would want from the LED is a yield in the

I'm doing a side by side test with an LED Penetrator 126W and a 250W HID. If it holds its own against a 250W, there are many benefits that one doesn't realize right away.

Probably wont need an air conditioner, depending on your ambient temps. Would need just a simple fan to exchange air and to circulate room air. It has a larger initial cost, but think of the savings you'll get in the future which can add up a lot, especially here in Cali with $0.15-$0.45/kW hour. If I can cut out my AC, big vortex fans and save my self a couple hundred a month, then I'll pay a little extra up front. Plus, these bulbs last for like seven years or something with GREAT output throughout, so no buying bulbs!

We'll see how it does. I have some good expectations out of this unit.

As you can see, I'm a big user of HID. I'm not doing the big grows now, but I use a HID for personal and wouldn't trade it for anything, yet. This LED will be SOOO stealthy!!!!! If it can compare, which I think it should be able to. EVen if its not exactly 1:1, I'd still be happy because there are other benefits that can weigh in.

 

[obscuredbycloud]

LED Discussion attempt number 500.. here we go. Tagged

Well it needs to happen.

I hope the staff will remove trolling/flaming post and leave the thread, it's easy to lock a thread, not so much to actually mod a thread.

 

[Nicoli]

Well it needs to happen.

I hope the staff will remove trolling/flaming post and leave the thread, it's easy to lock a thread, not so much to actually mod a thread.

I totally agree. Thanks for the negative rep Frozen

 

[EddieShoestring]

this hippy dude with long hair and wrap around shades tryed to sell me these a few years ago-they got nicked from his squat a couple of days later so that was that

 

[ganjaments]

Alot of people are not considering the whole range of situations where LED's would be preferable to HID's, even at 4x the cost (3x if compared to digital balast + hood btw).

A friend is thinking of building a room of sufficent size, but insufficent intake & outake ports.
He was considering spending $400 on a single light. However with his particular situation, he would have to spend an additional $700 in ventilation and sound proofing just to cool that one light. So now he's looking at spending $1100 on a 400w HID, or he could just spend $1150 on a 345w LED and not have to deal with any extra equipment or setup.

So, as long as the 345w LED performs ONLY AS GOOD AS the 400w HID, then the choice is easy. However, by most accounts, 345w of LED will kick the crap out of 400w HID, making the LED the more profitable light in the long run.

 

[NiteTiger]

I think this discussion is reasonable to have in a broad sense, without focusing on specific vendors. A simple discussion about the technology and its progress should not be out of the capabilities of IC members.

First off, we're the ones who would know. This forum IS the cutting edge of cannabis cultivation. All kinds of crazy shit, shit your guy at the local hydro store hasn't even thought of yet, is being used and tested by some of the most knowledgeable and experienced cultivators on the planet. if we can't have a flame free discussion of new grow technology here, then Gypsy ought to just fry the drives now and keep us from wasting time, tbqfh.

To the issue at hand:

Many of us on IC have watched LED emerge with great interest. Many of us here will remember the threadnaughts on LEDs, where proper wavelength and red/blue patterns were hammered out and analyzed to death. Like I said, this IS the cutting edge of grow science.

So, is there any doubt the technology works in my mind? No. LEDs are most certainly able to grow strong, healthy cannabis plants. The question is, are they an immediate threat to the HID market.

The answer to that, imho, is no. They simply don't currently beat HIDs across the board. There are just too many 'if's. IF LEDs consistently beat HID performance at lower wattages, IF they generate drastically less heat, and IF they can be scaled by need (ie, I hear about a 400w equivalent, where's my 1000w equivalent?), then yes, LEDs will take over.

However, they don't currently do that. The technology hasn't come that far yet. I'd say in 5-10 years we could have a valid contender...

Damn, gotta run, I'll have to finish up later.

 

[obscuredbycloud]

Great post, that is what I was hopping for this thread.

 

[Sleepy]

i am testing a first generation 126 watt unit for LEDGirl...

so far i have observed the follwing:

>less heat...a lot less heat.
>less watering due to the slower evaporation.
>almost silent operation (the fans put out a low noise, but not much).
>more compact plants with tighter internodes.
>no ballast
>less energy used than my 400 watt HPS. **i must say, though, that i had to supplement heat in my basement grow since it was so cold...so i am not using less energy this time in total**

there are definite benefits to using the LED units...i am early on in flowering, come on over and check it out.

 

[nnep]

The way i see LED technology is that it's just now starting to blow up. I read a ton of gardening mags, and i see a LED advertisement almost every other page, they're definitely here to stay. The problem is why switch over HIDs? They're tried and true and produce arguably the best results at the current time. What i'm getting at is that i don't think the benefits quite outweigh the drawbacks just yet, sure you're saving electricity and heat, but neither are really a problem. Perhaps if you're on a massive commercial scale, LEDs are the answer to the future, but for the average grower growing in their closet, they want the most bud they can possibly get. They don't care about an extra couple bucks they can save a month if it means less quality product.

With that said, LEDs are destined to improve, as will the entire horticulture industry. Fact in point, people spend money for results. I don't think the LEDs quite are worth the extra money for questionable results.

What we need is non-biased testing. LEDGirl has her heart in the right place with the free units for testing, but what i don't think a lot of people understand is that these tests will never settle anyone's doubts. The reason is because first of all, the person got a free light. It's hard to offer criticism to a product that you were given free to test, thus the test is already flawed and likely biased. Now, of course there are people out there who will set the record straight, but then from what i've seen the last wave of LED testers all had mediocre results, and it was claimed that the grower didn't grow it right or whatever that means. Then it basically turned into a flame war, and in my personal opinion LEDgirl might want to work on her business attitude .

The only real way i think people will be happy with tests is if it was somewhat controlled and scientific completely with controls and variables. Not by the manufacturer, not by the peons of the manufacturer, but by a completely unbiased independent source.

 

[Guywithoutajeep]

I just want to see a picture of a big garden grown on LEDs. It'd be awesome to see these in a commercial application.

 

[nnep]

Well technically you can, look at LEDgirl's setup. However not everyone can throw down 5k for lights, co2 and the works. She has a very professional small scale setup and it works for her.

 

[PetFlora]

I'm doing a side by side test with an LED Penetrator 126W and a 250W HID. If it holds its own against a 250W, there are many benefits that one doesn't realize right away.

Probably wont need an air conditioner, depending on your ambient temps. Would need just a simple fan to exchange air and to circulate room air. It has a larger initial cost, but think of the savings you'll get in the future which can add up a lot, especially here in Cali with $0.15-$0.45/kW hour. If I can cut out my AC, big vortex fans and save my self a couple hundred a month, then I'll pay a little extra up front. Plus, these bulbs last for like seven years or something with GREAT output throughout, so no buying bulbs!


We'll see how it does. I have some good expectations out of this unit.

As you can see, I'm a big user of HID. I'm not doing the big grows now, but I use a HID for personal and wouldn't trade it for anything, yet. This LED will be SOOO stealthy!!!!! If it can compare, which I think it should be able to. EVen if its not exactly 1:1, I'd still be happy because there are other benefits that can weigh in.

On my second LED UFO 90 grow, but I supplemented with CHEAP CFLs. Why not?

 

[obscuredbycloud]

^^^ never thought about that.

For my application LED's might be beneficial. I am looking to keep a mother, however she would have to be out and in the open in just a room. Like a household plant, however I want something more then just T5's or something for her.

 

[blazeoneup]

The way i see LED technology is that it's just now starting to blow up. I read a ton of gardening mags, and i see a LED advertisement almost every other page, they're definitely here to stay. The problem is why switch over HIDs? They're tried and true and produce arguably the best results at the current time. What i'm getting at is that i don't think the benefits quite outweigh the drawbacks just yet, sure you're saving electricity and heat, but neither are really a problem. Perhaps if you're on a massive commercial scale, LEDs are the answer to the future, but for the average grower growing in their closet, they want the most bud they can possibly get. They don't care about an extra couple bucks they can save a month if it means less quality product.

With that said, LEDs are destined to improve, as will the entire horticulture industry. Fact in point, people spend money for results. I don't think the LEDs quite are worth the extra money for questionable results.

What we need is non-biased testing. LEDGirl has her heart in the right place with the free units for testing, but what i don't think a lot of people understand is that these tests will never settle anyone's doubts. The reason is because first of all, the person got a free light. It's hard to offer criticism to a product that you were given free to test, thus the test is already flawed and likely biased. Now, of course there are people out there who will set the record straight, but then from what i've seen the last wave of LED testers all had mediocre results, and it was claimed that the grower didn't grow it right or whatever that means. Then it basically turned into a flame war, and in my personal opinion LEDgirl might want to work on her business attitude .

The only real way i think people will be happy with tests is if it was somewhat controlled and scientific completely with controls and variables. Not by the manufacturer, not by the peons of the manufacturer, but by a completely unbiased independent source.

but by a completely unbiased independent source.

I'm no scientist, Or anything, But I am a completely unbiased independent source who is about to be doing a side by side test...