well that's helpful. thanks!
So what's in my grape brew? what gets eliminated?
So what's in my grape brew? what gets eliminated?
Effective Microorganisms, aka EM
- Thread starter Trichgnomes
- Start date
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secondtry
Cool MM, thanks for the info.
Speaking of Winogradsky columns here is a thought process/theory I wrote several years ago;
Re: Terra Preta
The Terra Preta soil regions are quite fascinating. After stumbling on the term on the Net I have done some quick reading to apprise myself of the surface information concerning Terra Preta.
It seems the current theory supports that this type of soil sustains carbons and nutrients over extended periods of time partially due to incompletely combusted organic materials (charcoal) and the interaction thereof with the soil microorganisms. The natives who
still have some bond to the history of this, maintain that if a minimum of 20 CM of the soil remains undisturbed by horticultural activities that the organismic activity re-sustains (re-invents) itself. This is not unlike a Winogradsky column which may provide a rudimentary laboratory example of what may be occurring here. http://helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/microbes/winograd.htm
When one observes a map of the Terra Petra plots in the Amazon it is evident that there is a large concentration of them in close proximity to the larger trunks of the Amazon River and to the sea coast portion of the Amazon. http://www.geo.uni-bayreuth.de/bodenkunde/terra_preta/TP_map.jpg
I also read that the indigenous people (IP) had built canals lined with special shaped (diamond) stones which allowed the flow of river silt. Now, knowing (or think I know {TIK}) that there are certain organisms (purple non sulfur bacteria,(PNSB) cyanobacteria, bacillus {N fixers}, yeast/fungi, protozoa, etc. etc.) in pond/river mud and in sea water and knowing (TIK) that sea water also contains a similar consortia of microbes (which may interact beneficially with the mud and forest microbes to create a broader spectrum consortia) and that there are large influxes of salt water up the Amazon; I may hypothesize that the IP flooded large paddies (beds, plots) with this silt/mud salt-fresh water mix. In these paddies were large amounts of incompletely combusted organic material (charcoal) remaining from the IP's method of clearing land. The result perhaps was the utilization of the charcoal by the microbe consortia to sustain itself and produce waste which resulted in the production and fixation of bio-available soil/plant nutrients. The organisms would naturally sustain themselves at the depths conducive to their aerobic/anaerobic and dietary lot in life, with fermentation occurring at the lower levels providing nutrients for the organisms above them. The phototrophic microbes (PNSBs; Rhodopseudomonas palustris, Rhodobacter sphaeriodes, Rhodobacter capsulatus; would naturally be somewhat closer to the surface to absorb light but not too close to hit air and the upper levels would consist of aerobic and facultative organisms (cyanobacteria, etc. if I'm not mistaken). This would support the statement that the system re-establishes itself if no more than 20 cm is disturbed. This is not unlike the theory behind EM use horticulturally and what we see in a healthy old growth forest and natural plains grass expanse.
Of course at some point the paddy/plot would be drained in preparation for planting but the microbial consortia presumably sustains itself with less moisture.
Re: Terra Preta
The Terra Preta soil regions are quite fascinating. After stumbling on the term on the Net I have done some quick reading to apprise myself of the surface information concerning Terra Preta.
It seems the current theory supports that this type of soil sustains carbons and nutrients over extended periods of time partially due to incompletely combusted organic materials (charcoal) and the interaction thereof with the soil microorganisms. The natives who
still have some bond to the history of this, maintain that if a minimum of 20 CM of the soil remains undisturbed by horticultural activities that the organismic activity re-sustains (re-invents) itself. This is not unlike a Winogradsky column which may provide a rudimentary laboratory example of what may be occurring here. http://helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/microbes/winograd.htm
When one observes a map of the Terra Petra plots in the Amazon it is evident that there is a large concentration of them in close proximity to the larger trunks of the Amazon River and to the sea coast portion of the Amazon. http://www.geo.uni-bayreuth.de/bodenkunde/terra_preta/TP_map.jpg
I also read that the indigenous people (IP) had built canals lined with special shaped (diamond) stones which allowed the flow of river silt. Now, knowing (or think I know {TIK}) that there are certain organisms (purple non sulfur bacteria,(PNSB) cyanobacteria, bacillus {N fixers}, yeast/fungi, protozoa, etc. etc.) in pond/river mud and in sea water and knowing (TIK) that sea water also contains a similar consortia of microbes (which may interact beneficially with the mud and forest microbes to create a broader spectrum consortia) and that there are large influxes of salt water up the Amazon; I may hypothesize that the IP flooded large paddies (beds, plots) with this silt/mud salt-fresh water mix. In these paddies were large amounts of incompletely combusted organic material (charcoal) remaining from the IP's method of clearing land. The result perhaps was the utilization of the charcoal by the microbe consortia to sustain itself and produce waste which resulted in the production and fixation of bio-available soil/plant nutrients. The organisms would naturally sustain themselves at the depths conducive to their aerobic/anaerobic and dietary lot in life, with fermentation occurring at the lower levels providing nutrients for the organisms above them. The phototrophic microbes (PNSBs; Rhodopseudomonas palustris, Rhodobacter sphaeriodes, Rhodobacter capsulatus; would naturally be somewhat closer to the surface to absorb light but not too close to hit air and the upper levels would consist of aerobic and facultative organisms (cyanobacteria, etc. if I'm not mistaken). This would support the statement that the system re-establishes itself if no more than 20 cm is disturbed. This is not unlike the theory behind EM use horticulturally and what we see in a healthy old growth forest and natural plains grass expanse.
Of course at some point the paddy/plot would be drained in preparation for planting but the microbial consortia presumably sustains itself with less moisture.
Somewhere in Vinny's ramblings there is a list of antioxidants and other measures. It could be on the forum or his website. He paid for a lab analysis. My memory is foggy.
Bacteria harmful to people cannot live below pH 3.4 to be safe.
I meant as far as a probiotic. antioxidants I don't care about so much. what would survive?
Trichgnomes
Member
I thought I would share this you all here, as it kind of made my day. The soil in which i applied the AEM to a couple days ago is sitting in a large bin (30 gallons). It was used for one round of flowering which finished in November. The soil was re-amended with a few things, and wetted with either a compost slurry or molasses, I forget as it was a while ago. A month or so ago I applied AEM to it, and then the other day I put it in a kiddy pool, made the final AEM application, and returned it to the rubbermaid. (A practice in which I am questioning, see here).
I had to transplant a few rooted cuttings, so I used this soil. While the top was fairly cool, I reached my hand into the bin and it felt like real outdoor soil that had been warmed by the sun on a summer day. It was glorious! A sign of positive microbial activity, I hope. And not to sound like a quack, but I felt an intensely powerful energy, like what EM gurus speak of, lol. I can't really describe it that well without sounding nutty, but it was very psychedelic to say the least.
I had to transplant a few rooted cuttings, so I used this soil. While the top was fairly cool, I reached my hand into the bin and it felt like real outdoor soil that had been warmed by the sun on a summer day. It was glorious! A sign of positive microbial activity, I hope. And not to sound like a quack, but I felt an intensely powerful energy, like what EM gurus speak of, lol. I can't really describe it that well without sounding nutty, but it was very psychedelic to say the least.
As 2nd has said to answer this you need to speak with someone who has done a plate count but I would surmise about 10 times more microbial content than any probiotic in a health food store. Don't discount antioxidants in terms of gut and immune system health.
well I can tell you this: it doesn't taste bad and it makes me feel good. And the azomite and rice bran aren't a problem it's all settled.
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secondtry
Hey trichgnome,
It sounds like your media could being converted by at least the yeast and LAB as both are so-called zymogenic organisms and can effect media/soil as you describe AFAIK. The idea of zymogenic soil is not from Dr. Higa but he does write about it. PnSB are also said to increase the remediation of soil.
Dr. Higa has written about 'nuclear' energy of PnSB (or was it atomic?), kind of sounds like what your are referring to. While I pretty much dismiss these writings of Dr. Higa as non-objective I do think there is definitely something to what he is writing about, re: energy, chi, etc...just not nuclear energy.
Nice to see you have such good success.
Ah, I thought doctor Higa meant they were almost completely self sufficient, like a nuclear sub.
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secondtry
Interesting concept MM, a huge horizontal Wino column, if I correctly understand what you are presenting (it's been a long day so forgive me if I'm missing something) that makes sense. I didn't know that about river silt methods, thanks.
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scotianmeds
Question...
I see the benefit of EM as speeding up the fermentation process for amendments such as Alfalfa, seaweed and most all of my other tea ingediants but I do not understand how EM really works as a soil conditioner as EM is a complilation of beneficial ANAEROBIC microbes. For anearobes to thrive and for most of them to live they require anaerobic conditions, but growing most plants require aerobic conditions, we all know that Cannabis has O2 loving roots, so it seems like kind of a parodoxy.
Wouldn't it work best to use EM to ferment organic material like alfalfa and seaweed and then use the fermented liquid in ACT. The resulting microbes would be aerobic and should have a lot better chance at taking root in the aerobic conditions present in the medium.
Just a thought
I see the benefit of EM as speeding up the fermentation process for amendments such as Alfalfa, seaweed and most all of my other tea ingediants but I do not understand how EM really works as a soil conditioner as EM is a complilation of beneficial ANAEROBIC microbes. For anearobes to thrive and for most of them to live they require anaerobic conditions, but growing most plants require aerobic conditions, we all know that Cannabis has O2 loving roots, so it seems like kind of a parodoxy.
Wouldn't it work best to use EM to ferment organic material like alfalfa and seaweed and then use the fermented liquid in ACT. The resulting microbes would be aerobic and should have a lot better chance at taking root in the aerobic conditions present in the medium.
Just a thought
great comment. I've asked that before!
For starters, healthy soil is not exclusively aerobic. It's predominantly aerobic. Second, these are not anaerobes, they are facultative anaerobes. I'm having trouble getting a definition out of anyone here, but wiki says that mean able to use oxygen or not use oxygen.
Facultative anaerobes and anaerobes are important to healthy soil. Look at the nitrogen fixers that colonize legumes for instance. They are anaerobes, and legumes give them an anaerobic home.
Then there is actinobacter and others that are not LAB, PNSB, or yeasts. I am soooo sure microbeman said actinobacter helps create soil aggregates, but I can't find the reference.
PNSB's? They can help clean up nasty stuff in you soil. Not sure if EM does this per se, or how fast, but good stuff! They also fix N depending on their metabolic process (they can go 4 ways, twice as many as you and fourt times as many as you on a long term basis)
So yeah, apply to your soil, pets, counters, garden, shower curtain, dog water, shot glass (special brew), drains, ponds, dishwasher, loads of light colored clothing, houseplants, septic, kitty litter, compost, worm bin, use it to ferment things, (bokashi and whatnot), and whatever else you can think of.
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scotianmeds
There is a major difference between indoor soil mixes which are designed to be light and aerobic, and outdoor soil plots which yes can become very anaerobic because outdoor plots do not contain only top soils, and perlite.
Facultative anaerobes are just anaerobes that can live in the presence of O2. You have to understand that legumes like Alfalfa have very long roots that stretch down into the anaerobic zones in natural outdoor plots, but legumes are unique in their ability to fix N, the are the exception and not the rule.
I have never really heard of anaerobes being important for healthy soil, they are decomposers, that create acids and alcohols to facilitate the decomp of organic matter. But I can use worm castings in an ACT to culture beneficial aerobic bacteria, fungi, protozae and nemotodes.
Not all of the anaerobes in EM are facultative anaerobes, and PNSB needs both light and anaerobic conditions to thrive. LAB can not even respire. With all I can find on actinobacter, this looks very dangerous and I am not sure I want to be dealing with it, it has major human pathogenic properties. Is this even in EM, or are you referring to Acinetobacter, which is an important soil microbe but is strictly aerobic, so could not come out of EM.
Facultative anaerobes are just anaerobes that can live in the presence of O2. You have to understand that legumes like Alfalfa have very long roots that stretch down into the anaerobic zones in natural outdoor plots, but legumes are unique in their ability to fix N, the are the exception and not the rule.
I have never really heard of anaerobes being important for healthy soil, they are decomposers, that create acids and alcohols to facilitate the decomp of organic matter. But I can use worm castings in an ACT to culture beneficial aerobic bacteria, fungi, protozae and nemotodes.
Not all of the anaerobes in EM are facultative anaerobes, and PNSB needs both light and anaerobic conditions to thrive. LAB can not even respire. With all I can find on actinobacter, this looks very dangerous and I am not sure I want to be dealing with it, it has major human pathogenic properties. Is this even in EM, or are you referring to Acinetobacter, which is an important soil microbe but is strictly aerobic, so could not come out of EM.
sources? explanations?
first claim I checked, from wiki:
first claim I checked, from wiki:
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scotianmeds
I hate wikipedia but a simple search for Lactic Acid Bacteria. This is the first line.
The Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) comprise a clade of Gram-positive, low-GC, acid-tolerant, generally non-sporulating, non-respiring rod or cocci that are associated by their common metabolic and physiological characteristics. These bacteria, usually found in decomposing plants and lactic products, produce lactic acid as the major metabolic end-product of carbohydrate fermentation.
The Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) comprise a clade of Gram-positive, low-GC, acid-tolerant, generally non-sporulating, non-respiring rod or cocci that are associated by their common metabolic and physiological characteristics. These bacteria, usually found in decomposing plants and lactic products, produce lactic acid as the major metabolic end-product of carbohydrate fermentation.
link?
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scotianmeds
Many lactobacilli are unusual in that they operate using homofermentative metabolism (that is, they produce only lactic acid from sugars in contrast to heterofermentative lactobacilli which can produce either alcohol or lactic acid from sugars) and are aerotolerant despite the complete absence of a respiratory chain. This aerotolerance is manganese-dependent and has been explored (and explained) in Lactobacillus plantarum. Many lactobacilli do not require iron for growth and have an extremely high hydrogen peroxide tolerance.
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scotianmeds
Trichgnomes
Member
I don't know if you've ever checked out this 26 page thread that Jaykush started, it's all about the benefits of Lacto Bacilli--
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=96325
