Pretty tied up so far... that's interesting.
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Decriminalization or Legalization?
- Thread starter mean mr.mustard
- Start date
touching your damn nose aint gonna cut it with these bastards, & you KNOW it! they are going to demand a test equivalent to the Breathalizer for alcohol BEFORE they even consider decrim or legalization. educate YOURSELF, & GROW UP! by the way, drug testing has NOTHING to do with job performance, i'm with you there. it is nothing more than govt sanctioned discrimination against US. recreational drug users are The Last Frontier, the ONLY group left that it is still (marginally) OK to discriminate against. court won't let them rough up blacks, hispanics, indians, cripples, foreigners, buddhists, atheists etc. know who is left? US...
Umm... field sobriety test is the ONLY test that's needed. The LEGISLATORS need to grow the F up. I'm perfectly awake, educated and mature here. Thanks very much.
Stay Safe!
K
Kola Radical
It has been decriminalized where I live for years. Parents can't have their kids coming to college to learn and end up being busted. Many of those same parents smoked their first joint at the same school.
But people still go to jail here for growing. The black market is still alive and well, although it is stuggling. People still die from being shot by cruel, crooked cops.
Legalize it to save lives if nothing else.
More people died in Mexico last year than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. There is war going on in Mexico in case you didn't know... and they are killing each other over our weed use. And that money goes out of the country. Lets keep those dollars here where they originated.
But people still go to jail here for growing. The black market is still alive and well, although it is stuggling. People still die from being shot by cruel, crooked cops.
Legalize it to save lives if nothing else.
More people died in Mexico last year than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. There is war going on in Mexico in case you didn't know... and they are killing each other over our weed use. And that money goes out of the country. Lets keep those dollars here where they originated.
trichburner
Member
Total legalization . Some of us would really like to do our own private hobby breeding that includes selecting from large populations . Plant limits won't allow for that and paying fees to grow large populations would just plain suck . The government can make their tax dollars from the industries started when hemp goes up on the commodities market .
1
10jed
legalization without government involvement is a pipe dream... not going to happen. That ship sailed about 40 years ago! Decriminalization, as the term is typically used, is a good step toward actual legalization, but not the answer to prohibition.
I think mj should be treated just like beer. you have your bulk operations like miller and bud, you have your micro brews for those who want a higher quality product, and you have your people brewing at home. I don't like the criminal aspect of mj, and decriminalization won't touch that issue. Leaving prohibition in place and simply reducing the penalty is not the answer guys.
Prohibition is the issue, and the only fix for prohibition is legalization. Let the big cig companies come in and dominate the market. Who cares! If it is legal we will have choices on what we consume and that is fine. I think alot of you CA guys think the whole world is smoking local pot, but that isn't true. I don't know the statistics but around my little corner of the Midwest it is primarily Mexican supplied shitweed and I would rather smoke yours or my own. There will always be desire for better product and preference for taste, smell, effect, or potency is far from universal. We involved in the scene know that better than anyone. Do to short term tolerance and specific types of effect there will never be just 1 type of mj that is universally the best. People will want variety and if you talented commercial guys can cut it as a legal business, you will get rich in the new marketplace or at the very least have a high paying job with a legal company because of your experience.
I think the only people who don't support actual legalization of mj and hemp are those who are either:
uninformed and unrealistic
anti-pot activists who still believe the reefer madness lies
big corporations that stand something to lose such as alcohol, textile, paper and pharmaceutical companies
the government bodies that are currently corrupting the system from the inside such as the DEA
and the current union of local growers and dealers.
People talk about the government ripping people off and taking advantage through taxation, but you guys who are doing commercial product are no different. $350-400 an ounce? Are you telling me that doesn't include a 500% or so tax? Come on guys, that is bs. That kind of money is only justifiable because it is illegal to produce. You want to make this an open fair trade situation then sell it for 2.99 a pound like tomatoes. Otherwise you aren't doing us any favors. Prohibition has driven the price of MJ to a ridicules amount. All this talk of decrim and not legalization is self-serving bullshit. Always somebody looking out for themselves on this issue. On our side as well as the sides of government and industry.
If mj is legalized then the government has a job to do so they deserve to get paid. They have to take steps to assure that it isn't being abused by motorists and keep it out of the hands of kids. They will have to work out specific plans for regulation and distribution, and production... Yes there needs to be rules! This money can also be used to eradicate the harmful and addictive drugs that ARE problems within our society. I for one would also like to see our economy get back on track and income from mj taxation + radically reduced WOD spending + providing actual jobs for production + a booming hemp industry would all make funds that can pull our people as well as our state and federal governments from the black hole of debt. The production would provide jobs for people who need them, and as people from all walks of life came out from the closets there would be a broader acceptance of its use in responsible American society. Many of the people coming forward now and speaking up about mj reform are those who have nothing to loose. No disrespect to the activists who are making this issue closer to reality, but I think you know what I mean. The doctor, or lawyer or business owners that get the respect of the traditional American culture are not usually willing to chastise themselves because of the negative backlash that may ensue. Through the legalization and open social acceptance of mj, they can then come forward to be further proof that responsible use of mj is possible and in many ways beneficial to our culture. I'm sure there are many other ways that legalization can help us as a whole. These are just a few of them.
By the way, Phillips is producing a handheld unit for drug testing that is based on a saliva sample. Here is an article that talks about different testing methods and how saliva and possibly blood plasma are the only ways to test for active thc vs the inactive thc that is tested for now. The Philips device doesn't give these types of specs but when I originally found info on the product it was stated that it gave a window of 2-3 hours which would be more accurate indicator of intoxication and not just casual use from a week ago.
For legalization, or even decriminalization to ever become a reality, a device capable of showing intoxication in real-time is a must IMO. In this world that revolves around the corporate "blame game" there needs to be a way to prevent innocent people from loosing jobs because they smoked a joint last weekend or the factory worker being denied insurance benefits from an incidental accident when his urine test shows he may have smoked weed a week or two ago. I'm sure insurance companies love the ability to deny benefits to people involved in on the job accidents because they smoked pot at the Petty concert a couple weeks ago, and then label them as a pothead and render them unemployable. I also don't want to see a rash of auto accidents because inexperienced users smoke up and drive when their bodies and their minds don't know how to process the effects.
Jed
I think mj should be treated just like beer. you have your bulk operations like miller and bud, you have your micro brews for those who want a higher quality product, and you have your people brewing at home. I don't like the criminal aspect of mj, and decriminalization won't touch that issue. Leaving prohibition in place and simply reducing the penalty is not the answer guys.
Prohibition is the issue, and the only fix for prohibition is legalization. Let the big cig companies come in and dominate the market. Who cares! If it is legal we will have choices on what we consume and that is fine. I think alot of you CA guys think the whole world is smoking local pot, but that isn't true. I don't know the statistics but around my little corner of the Midwest it is primarily Mexican supplied shitweed and I would rather smoke yours or my own. There will always be desire for better product and preference for taste, smell, effect, or potency is far from universal. We involved in the scene know that better than anyone. Do to short term tolerance and specific types of effect there will never be just 1 type of mj that is universally the best. People will want variety and if you talented commercial guys can cut it as a legal business, you will get rich in the new marketplace or at the very least have a high paying job with a legal company because of your experience.
I think the only people who don't support actual legalization of mj and hemp are those who are either:
uninformed and unrealistic
anti-pot activists who still believe the reefer madness lies
big corporations that stand something to lose such as alcohol, textile, paper and pharmaceutical companies
the government bodies that are currently corrupting the system from the inside such as the DEA
and the current union of local growers and dealers.
People talk about the government ripping people off and taking advantage through taxation, but you guys who are doing commercial product are no different. $350-400 an ounce? Are you telling me that doesn't include a 500% or so tax? Come on guys, that is bs. That kind of money is only justifiable because it is illegal to produce. You want to make this an open fair trade situation then sell it for 2.99 a pound like tomatoes. Otherwise you aren't doing us any favors. Prohibition has driven the price of MJ to a ridicules amount. All this talk of decrim and not legalization is self-serving bullshit. Always somebody looking out for themselves on this issue. On our side as well as the sides of government and industry.
If mj is legalized then the government has a job to do so they deserve to get paid. They have to take steps to assure that it isn't being abused by motorists and keep it out of the hands of kids. They will have to work out specific plans for regulation and distribution, and production... Yes there needs to be rules! This money can also be used to eradicate the harmful and addictive drugs that ARE problems within our society. I for one would also like to see our economy get back on track and income from mj taxation + radically reduced WOD spending + providing actual jobs for production + a booming hemp industry would all make funds that can pull our people as well as our state and federal governments from the black hole of debt. The production would provide jobs for people who need them, and as people from all walks of life came out from the closets there would be a broader acceptance of its use in responsible American society. Many of the people coming forward now and speaking up about mj reform are those who have nothing to loose. No disrespect to the activists who are making this issue closer to reality, but I think you know what I mean. The doctor, or lawyer or business owners that get the respect of the traditional American culture are not usually willing to chastise themselves because of the negative backlash that may ensue. Through the legalization and open social acceptance of mj, they can then come forward to be further proof that responsible use of mj is possible and in many ways beneficial to our culture. I'm sure there are many other ways that legalization can help us as a whole. These are just a few of them.
By the way, Phillips is producing a handheld unit for drug testing that is based on a saliva sample. Here is an article that talks about different testing methods and how saliva and possibly blood plasma are the only ways to test for active thc vs the inactive thc that is tested for now. The Philips device doesn't give these types of specs but when I originally found info on the product it was stated that it gave a window of 2-3 hours which would be more accurate indicator of intoxication and not just casual use from a week ago.
For legalization, or even decriminalization to ever become a reality, a device capable of showing intoxication in real-time is a must IMO. In this world that revolves around the corporate "blame game" there needs to be a way to prevent innocent people from loosing jobs because they smoked a joint last weekend or the factory worker being denied insurance benefits from an incidental accident when his urine test shows he may have smoked weed a week or two ago. I'm sure insurance companies love the ability to deny benefits to people involved in on the job accidents because they smoked pot at the Petty concert a couple weeks ago, and then label them as a pothead and render them unemployable. I also don't want to see a rash of auto accidents because inexperienced users smoke up and drive when their bodies and their minds don't know how to process the effects.
Jed
Decriminalization doesn't exist as I'm speaking of it. It's "decriminalized" in a lot of places... although it's not the true definition of the term.
I think it's a bit more prudent to just drop penalties instead of coming up with a bunch of ins and outs, loopholes, and static terms... at least at first.
It's a bit farfetched to expect the price to drop dramatically after the corporations start to produce it... just look at beer prices. It's like the dairy farmers or plumbers' unions... they're not going to sell it for what it "should" cost. That is simply the fact that we deal with when we buy milk.
I think it's a bit more prudent to just drop penalties instead of coming up with a bunch of ins and outs, loopholes, and static terms... at least at first.
It's a bit farfetched to expect the price to drop dramatically after the corporations start to produce it... just look at beer prices. It's like the dairy farmers or plumbers' unions... they're not going to sell it for what it "should" cost. That is simply the fact that we deal with when we buy milk.
That's great and all... but uhh.... I"m a 24/7 medical user and like MANY opiate pain users.... I still drive.
If you drink 1/5th of a bottle of whiskey a day.... you're going to pass a field sobriety test and I'd be nervous about getting into a car with you if you were sober.
Same goes for a lot of Rx and definitely goes for cannabis. I am extremely cautious when driving after testing a new strain... as anyone switching medications should. Anything else is negligence and irresponsible behavior.
I hope Phillip morris finds some other tech along the way with that device... be a shame to waste all the R&D resources it's used so far.
Stay Safe!
So, how the fuck do you propose to talk a majority of the voters into it?
Wasting time thinking about things that will never happen is just mental masturbation.
a little off topic but did anyone catch CannaBiz last night on Doczone on CBC?
lots of very interesting points on legalization/decrim. ill see if i can find a link...
lots of very interesting points on legalization/decrim. ill see if i can find a link...
It's ever so kind of you to make the assumption that I'm trying to talk the majority of people into something... I think it's sweet you think I'm actually trying to accomplish anything besides get some perspective.
Your statement answers your question.
You have such a nice way of repeating yourself. Now please excuse yourself from my thread... I'm satisfying my curiosity now.
1
10jed
That's great and all... but uhh.... I"m a 24/7 medical user and like MANY opiate pain users.... I still drive.
If you drink 1/5th of a bottle of whiskey a day.... you're going to pass a field sobriety test and I'd be nervous about getting into a car with you if you were sober.
Same goes for a lot of Rx and definitely goes for cannabis. I am extremely cautious when driving after testing a new strain... as anyone switching medications should. Anything else is negligence and irresponsible behavior.
I hope Phillip morris finds some other tech along the way with that device... be a shame to waste all the R&D resources it's used so far.
Stay Safe!
I can see by your post hydro that you are a responsable user. You could certainly out smoke me or any other casual user for obvious reasons. From a traffic standpoint, you need to give them a reason to pull you over and then a reason to suspect that you are intoxicated. Certainly there is bullshit out there and someone could be just trying to bust your ass, but short of that they need a good reason right? Then, if you got the ticket for it I can't imagine a jury of your peers would not see that the rules are different for a person who is using it as medication. Note from the doc would probably do it unless you were driving erratically which would indicate that you were intoxicated and if so (as you are aware) you shouldn't be driving! For people like yourself a doctors notice might be a good thing to keep in your wallet.
Regardless of that though, would you rather a test that shows what you did an hour ago or a test that shows what you did last week? As it is now you would be fuckd for sure!
BTW, that is Philips the electronics manufacture not Phillip Morris the tobacco company...
and Mr. Mustard, Pytho is right. Don't waste the brain cells on that one buddy! I think many would like that but it just wont ever happen. I directed my comments toward the common definition of decriminalized because that is what people probably thought when they voted. I read your post and knew what you meant. As for the pricing I was being facetious saying $2.99 a lb, but my point was accurate.
Jed
I really do remember when people said that legalization was the stuff of pipes (pun intended).... yet it's going to be on a ballot in more than a few places soon.
I don't see nearly as many issues with decrim as legalization.
We need some time to see either way, I'd just like to see room for improvement rather than a rigid set of lines that, it may turn out, nobody really likes much.
I don't see nearly as many issues with decrim as legalization.
We need some time to see either way, I'd just like to see room for improvement rather than a rigid set of lines that, it may turn out, nobody really likes much.
Preacher
Member
Legalization is ideal. Do I want to go to a smoke shop and be able to buy my choice of a carton of cannabis for five bux or home grown pipe weed+papers in a higher quantity for the same? Fuck yes. That's how it is with my tobacco purchases now and that's entirely thanks to full legalization with taxation creating the opportunity for locals to grow legally for a small profit because more overall profitable corporate tobacco gets the everloving fuck taxed out of their cigs. Perfect competition, a shitton of tax revenue and local growers don't get completely screwed. Only the drug dealers lose in this equation and I don't feel too bad about people losing out on obscene profits due to risk vanishing from this society.
Edit: I will however realistically support decrim moreso because that's the furthest step that's even conceivable at this point.
Son of Edit: I like to use tobacco as a debunking of the rubbish "they don't tax it because people would just grow their own" argument- do people grown their own tobacco? Even though it'd be vastly cheaper to support a nicotine habit this way? Fuck no.
Edit: I will however realistically support decrim moreso because that's the furthest step that's even conceivable at this point.
Son of Edit: I like to use tobacco as a debunking of the rubbish "they don't tax it because people would just grow their own" argument- do people grown their own tobacco? Even though it'd be vastly cheaper to support a nicotine habit this way? Fuck no.
1
10jed
Wow, I wish I could get local tobacco! That's pretty cool! But for tobacco to be homegrown... remember that cigs were under $1 per pack most places 20 years ago and only in recent years have the prices gone through the roof. It would actually be worth it now!
Jed
It's easy and legal to buy tobacco seeds online. Quit wishing and start growing.
Wow.. let's get off topic.
I don't think tobacco would cause cancer if people grew it on their own. It's letting the government grow it that is killing hundreds of thousands of people. I know I don't want them growing my cannabis.
I don't think tobacco would cause cancer if people grew it on their own. It's letting the government grow it that is killing hundreds of thousands of people. I know I don't want them growing my cannabis.
To my knowledge, the Government does not grow tobacco...
G
Green Supreme
