Is Your Root Chamber Deep enough?

[PetFlora]

Most DWC systems develop incredible root networks, but roots on the bottom of the grow chamber are slowing the grow process.

TAG develops incredible root structures when the TAE (True Aero Environment) is optimized. The root chamber (RC) needs to be 3-5 feet deep to accommodate that growth.

My 18G totes are only 15" deep, but in just 35 days, the roots are over 2 feet long, a good six inches is balled up on the bottom of the totes.

If your RC isn't deep enough, the excess nutes will not return to res. Instead the roots on the bottom will be eating the left overs. Now, I am not sure that is such a bad thing, but a deeper RC will allow more of the roots to hang (exposing them to more fogged nutes). The roots on the bottom won't get near as much fogged nutes.

A simple solution for the DIYer is to stack two totes on top of each other: Cut away almost the entire bottom of the top tote, leaving at least a 2" lip so it can rest solidly on the lid of the bottom tote: FYI the root masses get pretty heavy. Cut a similarly large hole in the lid of the bottom tote for the roots to dangle in.

If you would like more up to date grow tips visit my TAG AMS LED journal

 

[PetFlora]

Forgot to add root pics

Forgot to add root pics

The one on the left is probably less than 2 weeks old. The one on the right 41 days old. If you enlarge the photo you will see a fist size ball of roots collecting on the bottom of the 15" deep RC. Looks like another trip to WalMart/KMart as I am 3 days from going 12/12

 

[MAZEinaHAZE]

PetFlora....you are totally correct.....you can also add the fact that with airstones in place, the more height, the further up the bubbles must travel....hence....expanding that air for more displacement, surface agetation, and over all adding more O2 to the rez solution

Rock on bro....i like your thinking and style

 

[foaf]

Im just about to kick off a very deep dwc, so I think we are gonna see how this deep root idea goes. Im going medialess and have almost a 4 foot deep chamber, 10 inch diameter. It holds about 6 gallons and recirculates into a 12 gallon tank. the 50LPM airpump and the big bubba airstone make this almost like aero - there is almost as much air in there as water when the air pump is on. One tree.

 

[PetFlora]

Thanks guys

Thanks guys

foaf I give you props, as it sounds like you got bubble game goin on, BUT, the roots need more than O2. I doubt the hotrod bubble rig is capable of delivering the nutes in a sub 80 micron droplet fashion.

Even if it could, the key to superior growing is short meals followed by dry time- so the roots can absorb that meal, and get hungry again.

Check out my grow journal for how to achieve this. ​

MAZEinaHAZE

I only use a stone in my res. The root chambers drain to the res.

Been thinking an aquarium water fall might be better, as it recirculates and filters.

 

[highonmt]

Dude,
Where is your empirical evidence that the ball of roots is slowing growth? I have buddies that grow in verticle aero systems and growth is impressive but not noticeably different from dwc. Also my RDWC adds fresh nutes at the top and bottom of the "chamber" ie bucket so they are not eating left overs. And this ball of roots is constantly bathed in 67-70 degree water which is saturated in O2 and nutes and growth has not slowed even with 5' 3" of growth something I've never seen in any aero system...but it may have been done please enlighten us. Also what happens to these perfect 50 micron droplets when they hit a root hair? do they sail into the vesicles as perfect spheres? or is the surface just covered by a film of O2 saturated nutrient solution? And this dry period and hunger cycle you speak of? do you take into account the differentiation of roots in cannabis a well known phenom of the air roots and water roots that develop in hempy/drip/ dwc/ soil, all which have reached 2lbs per 1k . This property is the reason why the passive plant killer system works and why swamp grows kick ass. I'm just being the devils advocate here but my question is; does endlessly increasing the complexity of the system really reward the grower with a noticeable increase in production? btw I did enjoy your sci-fi journal an interesting read.
Cheers,
HM

 

[medi-useA]

I grow DWC...my first 2 DWC grows were in 20 Ltr buckets...I had a simple $1 blue airstone...2"long......the roots filled it FAST..and filled it FULL.
The root mass was 'bucket shaped' when removed...

The brown tinge was from the Nitrozyme I was adding @ the time.



Now I grow in an 80 Ltr black tub...

and I get roots like this... {cannot upload my pics...Damnit!}
Insert Pic HERE!

I upgraded my airstone for a 4"disc type....and she LOVED it...now I also have a second airstone...a 6" porcelain micro-fine jobbie!....More Bubbles!

Those roots were SkunkMix....My current one is a Haze...my first...and she's doin' great!

muA

 

[PetFlora]

Imperical Evidence? Sci-Fi Journal?

Imperical Evidence? Sci-Fi Journal?

Let's start with IE: Only the portion of the roots on the bottom that are uncovered will have access to the nutrient aerosol. Feedings are 20 seconds because that is all they can consume at one time. The covered roots are not getting fed as they should, and will die as well as become a breeding ground for bacteria as they decay.

I am amazed that I would have to explain this to someone who 'thinks' they are so knowledgeable.

As to you being amused reading my 'sci-fi' journal, clearly you are incapable of comprehending such advanced grow knowledge, and feel the need to lash out at things you do not understand.

Unfortunately, the world is full people just like you. The worst part is they are breeding.

Any further attempts to side track my grow will be deleted.

 

[PetFlora]

RE: Medi-useA

RE: Medi-useA

No doubt you have grown nice plants with this method, but your roots are far from ideal in terms feeding efficiency.

They look more like thick tap roots, although I do see some fishbones around the edges, they will quickly lose the bones and look like the rest of your root mass.

When the environment in the root chamber is ideal, you will see fishbones instead of thick tap roots and those fishbones will be loaded with almost microscopic hairs.

 

[highonmt]

Let's start with IE: Only the portion of the roots on the bottom that are uncovered will have access to the nutrient aerosol. Feedings are 20 seconds because that is all they can consume at one time. The covered roots are not getting fed as they should, and will die as well as become a breeding ground for bacteria as they decay.

I am amazed that I would have to explain this to someone who 'thinks' they are so knowledgeable.

As to you being amused reading my 'sci-fi' journal, clearly you are incapable of comprehending such advanced grow knowledge, and feel the need to lash out at things you do not understand.

Unfortunately, the world is full people just like you. The worst part is they are breeding.

Any further attempts to side track my grow will be deleted.

Ok maybe you should wake up have a coffee and a bong and reread my post. I have been growing this plant for near 25 years and I do understand your issues with root death in areo systems when they drown at the bottom of the chamber, this has been discovered and solved in the past by several methods ie verticle areo and high pressure aeor. However this is not a problem in rdwc/soil/soiless drip/etc largly because of root differentiation imho. I was mearly making the point that your direct comparison of aero to dwc is flawed. I am quite familiar with aeroponics and the great benefits as well as some of the liabilities. If you do re-read my post you'll understand that I really did "enjoy" your journal which did have a sci-fi theme of which I'm a huge fan...So don't lable people haters till you wake up and actually read their post.
HM

 

[ruben andre]

daim whery nice roots man.9

 

[foaf]

BUT, the roots need more than O2. I doubt the hotrod bubble rig is capable of delivering the nutes in a sub 80 micron droplet fashion.

cool... I like your thoughts about deep long roots, I didn't really realize your perpective was all related to TAG or else I guess I wouldn't have posted. Im not about to get into the TAG/DWC argument, there is plenty of that to go around, but as far as your statement above, well, its kinda silly. Of course they need more, and Im providing it, and of course its not clearly proven that well done TAG is in anyway that counts (yeild or quality) better then other hydro techniques. You can find great and poor grows with all methods, but I bet you cant find a 4 lb indoor tree using TAG.

good luck and beware to other posters, this is a TAG thread.

 

[medi-useA]

No doubt you have grown nice plants with this method, but your roots are far from ideal in terms feeding efficiency.

They look more like thick tap roots, although I do see some fishbones around the edges, they will quickly lose the bones and look like the rest of your root mass.

When the environment in the root chamber is ideal, you will see fishbones instead of thick tap roots and those fishbones will be loaded with almost microscopic hairs.

If I had been able to load the pic I tried to, it would have shown an 80Ltr tub filled with 'fishbone' roots as you have described....the difference between the roots in a 20 L bucket and an 80 L tub are quite astounding the first time you see them.
....I have found th@ if you have sufficient aeration and make sure the nute solution remains @or near the bottom of the netpot, then there are less 'tap roots' and more 'fishbone' roots...the more space between the bottom of the netpot and the surface of the nutes, the more 'tap roots' will develop.

muA

 

[highonmt]

Medi,

Your observation is very interesting in that this type of differentiation seems very common. In the soiless drip systems I used to run we would see big fat "air" roots that would sometimes reach the surface and fishbone roots down at the bottom where less O2 is available. . I and several others I've known have postulated that these upper roots act as the lungs of the plant allowing for other roots to take up O2 poor water which if you think of it makes sense as a mechanism to take up deep stagnant ground water in their native environment while still taking up O2 from the dry upper soil. These air roots only seem to occur if the roots are not submerged so I've never seen them in any of the few areo setups I've seen.
Cheers,
HM

 

[medi-useA]

Finally able to load the root pic


So here are my roots in an 80 Ltr tub...sorry for the odd picture angle....doin' 5 things @once!

muA

 

[Shcrews]

Im just about to kick off a very deep dwc, so I think we are gonna see how this deep root idea goes. Im going medialess and have almost a 4 foot deep chamber, 10 inch diameter. It holds about 6 gallons and recirculates into a 12 gallon tank. the 50LPM airpump and the big bubba airstone make this almost like aero - there is almost as much air in there as water when the air pump is on. One tree.

I GOTTA SEE THIS GROW... new legendary thread possibly? FOAF you are one step ahead of the game always

 

[PetFlora]

MuA

MuA

TAG is not about 8 ft trees. It affords the ability to grow a variety of strains very quickly in a small space. Advantage TAG

I would get awfully tired of smoking the same weed.

 

[foaf]

fair enough. I like TAG, don't get me wrong, and I was an early TAG person, before the term TAG was used actually. I did tag with an expensive 1000 psi outdoor misting pump all plumbed with copper tubing and brass emitters (still have it) and posted it in the overgrow days. It was pretty neat and of course worked well if you were willing to deal with some nozzel changes and keeping nutrients filtered and all that. I use pretty deep tubs, but deep was like 18 inches, and the roots that sat on the bottom were more in an ebb/flow grow. As far as smoking the same pot....well... thats nothing that my 30 below cryogenic freezer (freebee being thrown out from an outpatient center, used to hold bone grafts ) and some vacuum sealed metal containers cant handle. I actually have about 8 strains in deep storage for the variety. It also holds shrooms and acid stable forever, I hope.

 

[bendoslendo]

OH noes! Another big ass overgrown foaf-tree room. Better be complete with rogue bottle/stem shots.

 

[PetFlora]

FOAF

FOAF

Good to know.


I am exploring how far it has come since the old days. Thankfully, some people who are already at that next level have been kind enough to guide me. Props to them. I would love to share some of their photos but do not have permission. Their results are impressive.

Several have mentioned the accum technique. It makes perfect sense, and essential in a commercial grow environment, but not here.

I am in the process of getting a digital timer accurate to one second, plan to use it straight up, or maybe just add a pressure valve on the out of the pump to hold pressure.

In the mean time, my 46 day old girls are looking far better than anything I ever grew before. Just put them into 12/12.

I find the quest for knowledge that TAG offers more exciting than growing, well almost.