Thank you! It seems that the people with the most conspiracy theories aka tin foil hats are not educated in the subjects that they discuss...they go by hear-say. Check out this site: http://www.akirahcl.net/ .. pretty cool stuff!
Vitamin B-12 supplements contain cyanide
- Thread starter BrainWreck
- Start date
Thank you! It seems that the people with the most conspiracy theories aka tin foil hats are not educated in the subjects that they discuss...they go by hear-say. Check out this site: http://www.akirahcl.net/ .. pretty cool stuff!
BrainWreck
New member
+k clorox, thanks for the info. My chemistry experience is limited to one HS class so I definitely don't have much to go off of especially with organic molecules. I found the following article on the subject though. I would highly appreciate if you could give us a critical analysis. Given the author does not cite a single source to back her claims, and upon googling her name It appears she is a chiropractor, I am thinking it is some quak BS.
By Dr Vivian V. Vetrano
There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.
Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”
A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.
I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12.
The original method used to extract Vitamin B 12 from its sources included heating the medium in a weak acid, the addition of cyanide ion, and exposure to light. In this process the coenzymes were converted to cyanocobalamin, yet this was over looked. (Review of Physiological Chemistry, Harper, Harold A., Lange Medical Publications, New York, 1977, page l81. Also refer to Cobalamin: Biochemistry and Pathophysiology, Wiley. N. and F. Sicuteri, New York, 1972.) MOREOVER, in the manufacture of vitamin supplements, cyanide is added to the medium because the carbon and nitrogen are needed to form large molecules as are found in vitamins; and IN ADDITION they need it to extract the B12 from fermentation liquors and liver homogenates. Carbon is needed in great quantities when making vitamins or any other manufactured vitamin or substance that mimics the natural vitamin that normally contains a lot of carbon.
THE TWO VITAMIN B12 COENZYMES KNOWN TO BE METABOLICALLY ACTIVE IN MAMMALIAN TISSUES ARE 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin (methyl-B12. When extracted in light, these two coenzymes undergo photolysis and are destroyed. Natural B12 is found solely in plants and animals, and that is the only form that can be called “coenzyme B12.”
If an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic. Then the cobalt of the former cyanocobalamin can combine with other substances that are not toxic and actually form Vitamin B12 coenzymes that are usable by the body. These normally existing Vitamin B12 coenzymes are labile and break down easily unless inside living tissue.
Potassium in the body can react with the cyanide found in cyanocobalamin – the “Vitamin B 12” – and form toxic potassium cyanide (KCN). Potassium cyanide is a poisonous compound used as a fumigant. This is one reason why the body jettisons the “Vitamin B 12” (i.e., cyanocobalamin) injections so rapidly. Within 24 hours most (about 90%) of the cyanocobalamin in supplements has been eliminated.
The names of cobalamins formed by the body or in a laboratory are: l. hydroxocobalamin if it combines with a hydroxyl ion (OH), and 2. aquocobalamin, when it combines with water. Cobalamin also combines with anions such as nitrite a form of nitrogen, chloride, and sulfur. These are not usable by the body. The two active coenzymes that can be formed in the body after stripping off the cyanide are 5’deoxyadenosylcobalamin, or adenosylcobalamin for short, and methylcobalamin. The problem is that the cyanide is toxic and makes many people sicker than they were before taking the supplement.
Cyanocobalamin is in every vitamin B12 supplement known because it is stable and less costly to manufacture. But it is not usable in the body. If the body has sufficient energy it may be able to offload the cyanide and benefit from the useful component. Mainly, what people experience after taking cyanocobalamin supplements is stimulation. The toxic effect of the cyanide triggers a rush of energy as the body works hard to excrete the poison, and this fools people into believing that the supplement has “worked” to heal them. Meanwhile, if their blood tests show an increase in B12, it mainly reflects the amount of the CYANOCOBALAMIN in the blood stream. The usable forms are carried into the cells and can’t be discovered by testing the blood as is the current practice. Blood tests are often inaccurate and, as previously stated, in the case of cyanocobalamin supplementation and B12 injections, about 90% of it has been eliminated from the body in 24 hours.
Looking at it Hygienically, no Vitamin B12 therapy can cause a recovery from any so-called deficiency disease. It may only hide the symptoms and cannot give an individual health. When people report that their apparent B12 deficiency symptoms have been relieved by cyanocobalamin supplementation, they are mistaken. They are not getting usable Vitamin B12 coenzymes, and their bodies are forced to convert the cyanide form into the active forms, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin. This extra function stimulates but wastes nerve energy, and they are are actually getting worse, not better. They have not addressed the cause of their troubles.
In summary, vegans and raw fooders all have sufficient amounts of coenzyme B12 in their diets, and FROM THAT produced in their bodies. The most common basic cause of a natural cobalamin deficiency is a failure to digest, absorb and utilize the various cobalamins from food and from the intestinal tract as in the case of gastritis or gastroenteritis. The cause of malabsorption is commonly a gastrointestinal disorder and this was known by pathologists way back in the l800s. In this case, one's lifestyle must be assessed and brought into unison with the needs of the living organism.
Furthermore, absorption of the natural B12 coenzymes can take place in the mouth, throat, esophagus, bronchial tubes and even in the upper small intestines, as well as all along the intestinal tract. THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE COMPLEX ENZYME MECHANISM FOR ABSORPTION (INTRINSIC FACTOR) IN THE SMALL INTESTINE AS REQUIRED BY CYANOCOBALAMIN. THE COENZYMES ARE ABSORBED BY DIFFUSION FROM MUCOUS MEMBRANES.
By Dr Vivian V. Vetrano
There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.
Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”
A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.
I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12.
The original method used to extract Vitamin B 12 from its sources included heating the medium in a weak acid, the addition of cyanide ion, and exposure to light. In this process the coenzymes were converted to cyanocobalamin, yet this was over looked. (Review of Physiological Chemistry, Harper, Harold A., Lange Medical Publications, New York, 1977, page l81. Also refer to Cobalamin: Biochemistry and Pathophysiology, Wiley. N. and F. Sicuteri, New York, 1972.) MOREOVER, in the manufacture of vitamin supplements, cyanide is added to the medium because the carbon and nitrogen are needed to form large molecules as are found in vitamins; and IN ADDITION they need it to extract the B12 from fermentation liquors and liver homogenates. Carbon is needed in great quantities when making vitamins or any other manufactured vitamin or substance that mimics the natural vitamin that normally contains a lot of carbon.
THE TWO VITAMIN B12 COENZYMES KNOWN TO BE METABOLICALLY ACTIVE IN MAMMALIAN TISSUES ARE 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin (methyl-B12. When extracted in light, these two coenzymes undergo photolysis and are destroyed. Natural B12 is found solely in plants and animals, and that is the only form that can be called “coenzyme B12.”
If an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic. Then the cobalt of the former cyanocobalamin can combine with other substances that are not toxic and actually form Vitamin B12 coenzymes that are usable by the body. These normally existing Vitamin B12 coenzymes are labile and break down easily unless inside living tissue.
Potassium in the body can react with the cyanide found in cyanocobalamin – the “Vitamin B 12” – and form toxic potassium cyanide (KCN). Potassium cyanide is a poisonous compound used as a fumigant. This is one reason why the body jettisons the “Vitamin B 12” (i.e., cyanocobalamin) injections so rapidly. Within 24 hours most (about 90%) of the cyanocobalamin in supplements has been eliminated.
The names of cobalamins formed by the body or in a laboratory are: l. hydroxocobalamin if it combines with a hydroxyl ion (OH), and 2. aquocobalamin, when it combines with water. Cobalamin also combines with anions such as nitrite a form of nitrogen, chloride, and sulfur. These are not usable by the body. The two active coenzymes that can be formed in the body after stripping off the cyanide are 5’deoxyadenosylcobalamin, or adenosylcobalamin for short, and methylcobalamin. The problem is that the cyanide is toxic and makes many people sicker than they were before taking the supplement.
Cyanocobalamin is in every vitamin B12 supplement known because it is stable and less costly to manufacture. But it is not usable in the body. If the body has sufficient energy it may be able to offload the cyanide and benefit from the useful component. Mainly, what people experience after taking cyanocobalamin supplements is stimulation. The toxic effect of the cyanide triggers a rush of energy as the body works hard to excrete the poison, and this fools people into believing that the supplement has “worked” to heal them. Meanwhile, if their blood tests show an increase in B12, it mainly reflects the amount of the CYANOCOBALAMIN in the blood stream. The usable forms are carried into the cells and can’t be discovered by testing the blood as is the current practice. Blood tests are often inaccurate and, as previously stated, in the case of cyanocobalamin supplementation and B12 injections, about 90% of it has been eliminated from the body in 24 hours.
Looking at it Hygienically, no Vitamin B12 therapy can cause a recovery from any so-called deficiency disease. It may only hide the symptoms and cannot give an individual health. When people report that their apparent B12 deficiency symptoms have been relieved by cyanocobalamin supplementation, they are mistaken. They are not getting usable Vitamin B12 coenzymes, and their bodies are forced to convert the cyanide form into the active forms, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin. This extra function stimulates but wastes nerve energy, and they are are actually getting worse, not better. They have not addressed the cause of their troubles.
In summary, vegans and raw fooders all have sufficient amounts of coenzyme B12 in their diets, and FROM THAT produced in their bodies. The most common basic cause of a natural cobalamin deficiency is a failure to digest, absorb and utilize the various cobalamins from food and from the intestinal tract as in the case of gastritis or gastroenteritis. The cause of malabsorption is commonly a gastrointestinal disorder and this was known by pathologists way back in the l800s. In this case, one's lifestyle must be assessed and brought into unison with the needs of the living organism.
Furthermore, absorption of the natural B12 coenzymes can take place in the mouth, throat, esophagus, bronchial tubes and even in the upper small intestines, as well as all along the intestinal tract. THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE COMPLEX ENZYME MECHANISM FOR ABSORPTION (INTRINSIC FACTOR) IN THE SMALL INTESTINE AS REQUIRED BY CYANOCOBALAMIN. THE COENZYMES ARE ABSORBED BY DIFFUSION FROM MUCOUS MEMBRANES.
S
Space Ghost
you should be far more concerned with the fast increasing ppm's of pharmacutical drugs and hormones in the drinking water supply. Not to mention how all those drugs make it into the human diet, meats, dairy, and just about everything that has water as an ingredient.... so basically everything....
clorox
Smokin on that serious...
No problem buddy, lets get right down to the nitty gritty of this article...
right off the bat, Dr. Vetrano makes quite possibly, one of the most absurd statements from a "medical professional".
There are two things wrong with this statement, one factual, and one that clues us into the underlying intent of this article.
1) there most certainly IS such thing as a vitman b12 defficiancy, its not very common, but does occur, especially in heavy users of Nitrous Oxide. Nitrous users aside, there are still countless cases of vitamin b12 deficiencies in the medical literature.
2) Interesting that she would mention vegans, why single out this one particular dietary group? might she be a strong advocate for vegan lifestyles?
Lets break down what shes talking about, a "coenzyme" (not the normal nomenclature BTW) is a chemical which binds to a protein which in turn makes it active for enzymatic action. This is all fine and dandy, but the fact is there are severl forms of vitamin b12, and most do not need "coenzymes" to be active. coenzymes are necessary for some natural forms of b12. Cyanocobalamin, the form of b12 being discusses here is a synthetic form of vitman b12 which does not occur in nature, and is active without the need for a "coenzyme"
ok, but anyone who is not a total vegetarian, and even vegetarians who still take vitamin supplements still do not have to worry about this, because the vitamin b12 available as vitamin supplements (Cyanocobalamin) is active without the need for "coenzymes", as enzymes in the liver (not the intestines as presumed by dr. veterano) make Cyanocobalamin structurally available.
Does the good doctor have a name for these so called biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and "many writers", or is she reffereing to herself as one of these writers?
cyanocobalamin IS Vitamin B12, and IS useable by the body, just because it is synthetic, does not make it fake.
whoa whoa whoa whoa, vitamin b12 was not ever, and is not "contaminated" with cyanide during its chemical extraction.
second of all, vitamin b12 is not produced naturally by plant or animal tissue, so how were early producers extracting vitamin b12 from animal tissue, let alone contaminating it with cyanide alone the way?
The synthesis of Cyanocobalamin is one that is studied intesivley in undergraduate organic chemistry classes, as it is a very interesting reaction mechanisms.
Vitamin B12 is produced naturally by several species of bacteria, and early producers isolated this product on an industrial scale from bacterial cultures.
thats all nice, but the original method (which did NOT involve the addition of cyanide) is no longer used in the industrial production of vitamin b12.
ok, no. cyanide arrises during the purification process of vitamin b12 due to activate carbon reaction with nitrogen gas which then binds to the cobalt atom at the center of the corrin ring. Because the cobalt has an open space for bonding, it is possible to attach any of several -R groups to the cobalt. the cyano form of vitamin b12 has the longest shelf life, and so is left as-is. the liver than changes this -R group from -CN(cyanide) to -5'-deoxyandenosyl (a sugar), by releasing the nitrogen, but not the carbon.
THIS IS WHY YOU DONT GET CYANIDE POISONING FROM EATING VITAMIN B12
again, vitamin b12 is not produced naturally by plant or animal tissues, it is produces by bacteria. the vitamin b12 in vitamin supplements is a synthetically produced vitamin.
is there a source for this? the cyanide is not removed because it is toxic, the cyanide group is not detached at all infact, the nitrogen is removed and replaced with a sugar which binds to the carbon that was once part of the cyano group. it is removed so it can be converted to a more soluble form for adsorption.
no, it simply cant, there is no "free" cyanide running around your body for the Pottasium to bind to. the -CN is not cleaved from cyanobobalamin as a whole, just the Nitrogen is removed. At this point, the good doctor is spouting utter bullshit. I would REALLY like to see this ladies sources...
EVIDENCE!?!?!?!?!?!
Theres no cyanide available in a toxic form to make the people sick, so how can it be making people sick? it cant!
this is starting to get repetitive. the body does not "offload the cyanide" it replaces a nitrogen atom with a sugar chain to satisfy the carbons bond potential and make the chemical absorbant.
The reason you feel stimulation after taking a vitamin B12 supplement is because vitamin b12 is used in the prodution of ATP (adenosine triphosphate), ATP is like chemical rocketfuel for the mitochondria in your cells. mitochondria can be reffered to as the powerplants of your cells... interestingly enough cyanide poisoning occurs when cyanide inhibits the bodys ability to produce ATP, and your cells run out of energy.
So riddle me this, if cyanide is being released from vitamin b12 supplements and causing people to get sick from cyanide poisoning, than why would a side effect of taking vitamin b12 be stimulation from the body trying to get rid of the cyanide?
simple logic folks...
when you are defficient of something, it means your body needs more of it. so how would taking additional vitamin boosters not help being vitamin deficient? cyanocobalamin is converted to the usable form in the liver, and thus IS available for utilization in the body
of course, the bacteria which produce vitamin b12 are present in the human body, more over the dietary requirments for vitamin b12 is around 1 microgram per day, which your indigenous bacteria colonies are more than capable of meeting.
its quite clear after reading this article that the author both has very little understanding of chemistry, biology, and enzymatic action. as noted, she is a chiropractor, and appearently, an outspoken vegan advocate, willing to spread to misinformation to further her views.
an article such of this would be ripped to shreds in a peer reviewed scientific journal, and is most likely why it was never published in one.
i hope this cleared a few things up for you guys, and feel free to ask questions if i can further clarify the subject.
right off the bat, Dr. Vetrano makes quite possibly, one of the most absurd statements from a "medical professional".
There are two things wrong with this statement, one factual, and one that clues us into the underlying intent of this article.
1) there most certainly IS such thing as a vitman b12 defficiancy, its not very common, but does occur, especially in heavy users of Nitrous Oxide. Nitrous users aside, there are still countless cases of vitamin b12 deficiencies in the medical literature.
2) Interesting that she would mention vegans, why single out this one particular dietary group? might she be a strong advocate for vegan lifestyles?
Lets break down what shes talking about, a "coenzyme" (not the normal nomenclature BTW) is a chemical which binds to a protein which in turn makes it active for enzymatic action. This is all fine and dandy, but the fact is there are severl forms of vitamin b12, and most do not need "coenzymes" to be active. coenzymes are necessary for some natural forms of b12. Cyanocobalamin, the form of b12 being discusses here is a synthetic form of vitman b12 which does not occur in nature, and is active without the need for a "coenzyme"
ok, but anyone who is not a total vegetarian, and even vegetarians who still take vitamin supplements still do not have to worry about this, because the vitamin b12 available as vitamin supplements (Cyanocobalamin) is active without the need for "coenzymes", as enzymes in the liver (not the intestines as presumed by dr. veterano) make Cyanocobalamin structurally available.
Does the good doctor have a name for these so called biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and "many writers", or is she reffereing to herself as one of these writers?
cyanocobalamin IS Vitamin B12, and IS useable by the body, just because it is synthetic, does not make it fake.
whoa whoa whoa whoa, vitamin b12 was not ever, and is not "contaminated" with cyanide during its chemical extraction.
second of all, vitamin b12 is not produced naturally by plant or animal tissue, so how were early producers extracting vitamin b12 from animal tissue, let alone contaminating it with cyanide alone the way?
The synthesis of Cyanocobalamin is one that is studied intesivley in undergraduate organic chemistry classes, as it is a very interesting reaction mechanisms.
Vitamin B12 is produced naturally by several species of bacteria, and early producers isolated this product on an industrial scale from bacterial cultures.
thats all nice, but the original method (which did NOT involve the addition of cyanide) is no longer used in the industrial production of vitamin b12.
ok, no. cyanide arrises during the purification process of vitamin b12 due to activate carbon reaction with nitrogen gas which then binds to the cobalt atom at the center of the corrin ring. Because the cobalt has an open space for bonding, it is possible to attach any of several -R groups to the cobalt. the cyano form of vitamin b12 has the longest shelf life, and so is left as-is. the liver than changes this -R group from -CN(cyanide) to -5'-deoxyandenosyl (a sugar), by releasing the nitrogen, but not the carbon.
THIS IS WHY YOU DONT GET CYANIDE POISONING FROM EATING VITAMIN B12
again, vitamin b12 is not produced naturally by plant or animal tissues, it is produces by bacteria. the vitamin b12 in vitamin supplements is a synthetically produced vitamin.
is there a source for this? the cyanide is not removed because it is toxic, the cyanide group is not detached at all infact, the nitrogen is removed and replaced with a sugar which binds to the carbon that was once part of the cyano group. it is removed so it can be converted to a more soluble form for adsorption.
no, it simply cant, there is no "free" cyanide running around your body for the Pottasium to bind to. the -CN is not cleaved from cyanobobalamin as a whole, just the Nitrogen is removed. At this point, the good doctor is spouting utter bullshit. I would REALLY like to see this ladies sources...
EVIDENCE!?!?!?!?!?!
Theres no cyanide available in a toxic form to make the people sick, so how can it be making people sick? it cant!
this is starting to get repetitive. the body does not "offload the cyanide" it replaces a nitrogen atom with a sugar chain to satisfy the carbons bond potential and make the chemical absorbant.
The reason you feel stimulation after taking a vitamin B12 supplement is because vitamin b12 is used in the prodution of ATP (adenosine triphosphate), ATP is like chemical rocketfuel for the mitochondria in your cells. mitochondria can be reffered to as the powerplants of your cells... interestingly enough cyanide poisoning occurs when cyanide inhibits the bodys ability to produce ATP, and your cells run out of energy.
So riddle me this, if cyanide is being released from vitamin b12 supplements and causing people to get sick from cyanide poisoning, than why would a side effect of taking vitamin b12 be stimulation from the body trying to get rid of the cyanide?
simple logic folks...
when you are defficient of something, it means your body needs more of it. so how would taking additional vitamin boosters not help being vitamin deficient? cyanocobalamin is converted to the usable form in the liver, and thus IS available for utilization in the body
of course, the bacteria which produce vitamin b12 are present in the human body, more over the dietary requirments for vitamin b12 is around 1 microgram per day, which your indigenous bacteria colonies are more than capable of meeting.
its quite clear after reading this article that the author both has very little understanding of chemistry, biology, and enzymatic action. as noted, she is a chiropractor, and appearently, an outspoken vegan advocate, willing to spread to misinformation to further her views.
an article such of this would be ripped to shreds in a peer reviewed scientific journal, and is most likely why it was never published in one.
i hope this cleared a few things up for you guys, and feel free to ask questions if i can further clarify the subject.
H
hard rain
The problem with your "RESEARCH" as you call it is that it nearly always involves a youtube clip that you present as evidence. Stop believing everything you read, see or hear on the internet.
Thank you clorox from saving us from another bullshit thread.
