anyone use leonardite in their mix?

[cobcoop]

Wondering if people use Leonardite and if you have noticed any positive results. I've been using Ancient Amber from roots organics in my mix recently (Age Old Grow, Earth Juice Bloom + Epsom Salts, Molasses, and Guano when necessary), and have been doing some reading on Leonardite and wondering if it is worth the expense.

I should also mention that I'm fairly new to Organics.

Here is one article that had some good info:
http://www.organicproducermag.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=113

Preliminary experimental work with leonardite (Tri-Lig) by the U. S. Bureau of Mines indicates that its presence in soil appears to increase aeration, tilth, and workability as well as better water movement (increases soil capillary and noncapillary space). The cation exchange capacity of the soil is markedly increased thus, improving longer-term retention of applied inorganic fertilizer.

Leonardite (Tri-Lig) increases the buffering properties of soil and chelation of metal ions under alkaline conditions, according to Dr. Senn of Clemson University. The humic fractions also act to effect a biological stimulation of growth in that they serve as a substrate for microorganisms, as well as direct plant growth stimulation by providing a slow release of auxins, amino acids, and organic phosphates.

Leonardite (Tri-Lig) tends to promote the conversion of a number of mineral elements into forms available to plants. The increased availability of phosphate in the presence of humic acids has been shown . Also, it has been shown that humic acids are effective in converting iron into available forms, which protect plants from chlorosis even in the presence of a high concentration of the phosphate ion. Humic substances facilitate the translocation of iron and phosphorus from roots to shoots of the sunflower. In the absence of humic acid, iron forms insoluble precipitates with phosphorus. Additionally, phosphate accumulation in plant tips is linear function of increasing concentration of humic acids even though the higher rates of humic acid (above 5 percent) decrease crop yields. DeKock suggested that humic acids might serve as carriers of iron by facilitating translocation across cell membranes. Humic acid stimulates root initiation of hypocolyl segments of beans (8,11) and low concentrations (3.6 percent of humic acid stimulates tomato seed germination.

 

[jaykush]

Leonardite is where most of the commercial humic acids come from, never heard of anyone using it straight.

 

[cobcoop]

Here's the info on Ancient Amber:
Roots Organics Ancient Amber (Leonardite)

Roots Organics Ancient Amber is specially extracted for low molecular weight from leonardite making it highly soluble and active. Leonardite is a rare form of lignite coal composed of ancient plant material.

 

[BurnOne]

There is also a product called Liquid Humus that has Leonardite. You have to make sure your base is the proper pH before pouring it in. Read the label directions carefully.
But you'll get all the humic acids you need from compost or worm castings.
Burn1

 

[cobcoop]

There is also a product called Liquid Humus that has Leonardite. You have to make sure your base is the proper pH before pouring it in. Read the label directions carefully.
But you'll get all the humic acids you need from compost or worm castings.
Burn1

Base nutes you mean, or the soil/substrate? My tap water is right about 6.5 - 6.8. I guess my hope behind using it was that it would help buffer the pH of the soil (I don't use lime or anything just FFOF cut w/ perlite). But so far I haven't had any of the probs w/ pH I had when using synthetics.

Thanks for the input guys!

 

[BurnOne]

I meant check the pH of the water you're pouring it into. The instructions are on the label.
Good luck.
Burn1

 

[*Journeyman*]

But you'll get all the humic acids you need from compost or worm castings.

From what I understand that's true especially when you get into soil recycling with organics. I'm in the middle of a business project and need to learn about the whole leonardite/humic acid/fulvic acid thing for the product I'm working with getting into distribution internationally.

Based on my research the best humic extract product comes from bioag.com as they do a slow microbial fermentation and not the typical alkali/acid extraction process. Dr. Faust is one of the world's leading experts on HA/FA. The microbial process is totally natural and IMO in perfect 'harmony' with what happens in nature slowly anyway.

As for leonardite itself there are many benefits using it whole opposed to the extracts. One thing you get is the humin fraction that gets tossed in the normal extraction process. This fraction will build soil humus levels faster than plain HA/FA. Companies and people focus on the acids and forget about the all important humin especially when using in soil. For hydro you're looking at the extracts.

If you do use leonardite I'd recommend micronized if you can find it. If you use a coarse mesh you just need to provide a much longer time frame for it to break down...just like the difference between using large K-Mag opposed to a finer grind.

The new Roots products are pretty good but one of the things I do not like about any typical extract are the sodium and potassium salts created in the process plus you lose the humin.

Give me a few more weeks and can provide more details. Not saying HA/FA's don't have value cause that's definitely not the case just a micronized version fits better in an organic program IMO.

 

[cobcoop]

thanks for the info journeyman.

 

[*Journeyman*]

One thing I wanted to add is the 'controversy' that surrounds testing methods for HA/FA. There are actually 4 different methods that I'm aware of and the variation can be quite significant. I talked to one lab that uses one of the methods for HA, they've been doing agriculture testing for like 40 years, but far as they're concerned there is no viable FA method and they have looked.

Another thing that happens is if a manufacturer includes the humin fraction in their product it can skew the results for the HA content. Humin is not soluble at any pH.

So when it comes to manufacturers claims for HA/FA content I would not put too much faith in what they say and would be more apt to stick with credible companies just in case.

While I have not used leonardite in any grows I can assure you it is used very successfully on a very large scale in general agriculture...and these growers do not just look at crops and see if things are working better they are testing certain parameters

 

[Dr Dog]

I get my humic fulvic from Botanicare Liquid Karma.

I swear by it, check it out

 

[*Journeyman*]

Trinity from Roots Organics has a higher HA/FA concentration than Liquid Karma and is less expensive also. It's their LK knockoff.

 

[habeeb]

I was looking into this a couple days ago

check into lignite and leonardite ( there not the same ) , but yeah I was interested in using it in a mix, maybe as a bottom like people use charcoal, but I thought if you can find it for cheap somewhere but I've had no luck when I looked into it..

GE use to have this, it was called black diamond I believe, but they stop selling it as I guess it didn't sell very well for them.... .....

I would like to look into it more, as I beleive it has value when it comes to gardening. I believe lignite was plant matter

lignite definition: " A soft, brownish-black coal in which the alteration of vegetable matter has proceeded further than in peat but not as far as in bituminous coal. Also called brown coal."

 

[big ballin 88]

I agree with using the Roots Trinity for leonardite. I love this stuff. Excellent plant additive/pick me up/stress protection. Its cheaper than LK and is mollasses based also like said contains a higher humic acid. To me this is the better than LK, since it comes with surfacants and ascopyhllum nodosum along with soy protein hydroslates.

 

[*Journeyman*]

From what I understand leonardite is oxidized lignite. One of the important things to look at when sourcing a whole, raw material is the age of the deposit but also more importantly the length of exposure (oxidation). Pretty sure Mesa Verde Resources has one of the better available deposits. Another difference is that Mesa Verde's deposit, and others in the Southwest area, are from fresh water/land based plants and something like North Dakota Leonardite's deposit is from sea-based plants. Supposedly the land-based deposits are higher in FA and the sea-based deposits are higher in HA but other companies will tell you that's BS and it's more dependent on length of exposure/weathering.

TeraVita is another source for humic products.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I could be completely off base, but isn't jersy greensand the same as leonardite?

 

[barletta]

Jersey green sand is not leonardite. They are both seabed deposits, but I believe that leonardite is closer to 'coal' and greensand is sort of 'algae/sealife fossils'.

I use rare earth from gen hydro, which is 50% prophyllic (Sp?) clay, and 18% leonardite in/on the soil. I also water plant success soluble which claims '9.5% humic acids derived from leonardite (CDFA method)'.

 

[guest2012y]

Jersey green sand is not leonardite. They are both seabed deposits, but I believe that leonardite is closer to 'coal' and greensand is sort of 'algae/sealife fossils'.

I use rare earth from gen hydro, which is 50% prophyllic (Sp?) clay, and 18% leonardite in/on the soil. I also water plant success soluble which claims '9.5% humic acids derived from leonardite (CDFA method)'.

I have used Rare Earth Pyro clay for a couple years,I have noticed an improvement in the overall heatlh of the plant. Outside of the current issues I'm having with peat(bad batch),I would recommend this stuff to everyone. Doesn't it have like 53% available silica as well?

 

[milehighmedical]

.

 

[*Journeyman*]

but I believe that leonardite is closer to 'coal'.

I use rare earth from gen hydro, which is 50% prophyllic (Sp?) clay, and 18% leonardite in/on the soil.

From what I understand leonardite is post coal. It's the formal name for the humate deposit discovered by Dr. Leonard in North Dakota but similar to other humate deposits.

As for the pyrophyllite clay you can also try www.pyroclay.com as they are a source and might be less expensive than the GH stuff.