New Cab Design - Lighting Question

[DSM]

This is a sketch showing the Cab's inner dimensions. I plan to use this for a perpetual SOG style of grow. The 2nd speaker of the pair will house the fan and carbon scrubber (fan with scrubber is approx. 10" x 10" x 18"). The second speaker will connect to the first speaker via PVC piping - 1 fan and scrubber for both speakers. In time the 2nd speaker will house a few mothers.

I plan to use beer cups or pop bottles for pots. If I use beer cups I can fit 4 rows of 5. There is enough room on one side to fit 2 florescent light fixtures which each hold 2 - 24" tubes (as I "tried" to show in the picture). The row of 5 will BARELY fit. The row of 4 CANNOT fit 5 beer cups without major mods to the enclosure (hense why I want to put the 2 floro fixtures there instead).

I am planning to use CFL's for my main lighting.

Does anyone think I would be better off downsizing to 4 rows or 4 and adding 2 more 2 X 24" Floro Fixtures? Or would should I stick with 4 x 5 and just maximize my top CFL lighting?


Thanks in advance for the input.

 

[grow1620]

I'd say fit as much light as possible until heat becomes a problem.

I can't see the sketch.

 

[DSM]

HMmm.. Wierd, It was there when I posted. But I did edit the picture, so maybe I forgot to repost it or something.

Directly above this is the code for the picture (not sure if it will show).

OK THIS IS TOO WEIRD...

As I am typing this response I scrolled down to re-read (and then comment on) grow1620's lighting advice. I scroll down and GUESS WHO IS THERE? The picture?!?!

Anyone have an idea what is going on? Hopefully it posts the picture this time, then I won't really care

Ok I just thought about some numbers. If I change the plan from 20 plants down to 16 plants I am loosing 20% of my plants. I am skeptic that the 4 extra 24" floro tubes would increase the weight by 20% to break even (never mind become beneficial). I am leaning towards just cramming more light up top. If anyone has an opinion on this either way please toss it in the ring.

I am also of the belief to cram as much light as you can until heat is an issue. Sure it may be less efficient (energy use), but its a WAY better use of my money than buying weed! And since grow space is limited... Yup more watts!

I will be doing some remote ballast testing with CFL's this week. I found some 42w bulbs that are unbelievably easy to crack open. and to take apart and even re-wire (the leads are twisted on, no solder to remove!). I started some research into making cool tubes for cfl's in another thread and just did not get around to continuing my tests.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=141954

 

[grow1620]

sorry still no pic...

I'm not sure of the exact size of your box...but just figure out your lumens or watts per square foot. I'd say 100watts per sq foot or 7000 lumens is almost max for flowering (with flouros) after that you'll start hitting diminishing returns.

I think Pl-l's will give you the most light and penetration for flouros, but if you're sticking to store bought stuff the tubes will have better light coverage imo...the coiled bulbs just seem to waste so much light yet they put out alot more light per sq. area as well. With tubes you'll really have to pack them in there to get the same wattage per sq foot. Look into foil taping the backsides of the bulbs if you go with tubes....you'll have to pack them so tight together that there won't be room between the bulbs to reflect the light back down if you know what I mean.

For cooling the bulbs(to me) the secret is smooth air flow above the bulbs. I built a long batwing style reflector, 2'x6", which create 2 channels of air. Exhaust on one end and a circulation fan blowing air through the channel from the other end. It's amazing how cool they stay...4x26w bulbs in 1sq foot and I get about 5 degrees over ambient. So essentially it's kind of like an open bottom cooltube.

also..I used to use beercups and dr bud Mt. dew containers...I actually built my box around 20oz pop containers...I have since switched to using the fiji square water bottles and they work much better then the 20oz'rs, and fit in the same size...I'm just saying don't be limited to your container...beer cups work fine and all but ime they're a very inefficient shape for space. I prefer square.

Could you mount the lights in sort of an arc to fit a few more in? I think the tubes would be easier to cool due to their smooth shape.

check out some of blynx's grows too, that guy is a master at high yields in small space...He tested out growing multiple plants in the same container to improve yields and had pretty good success with it. Though he only did a small amount of testing on that a few months ago and has been working on breeding projects and such since then. I really like the idea of multiple clones in the same container sharing soil and I'm running some tests of my own. I read an article about how clones don't invade each other's roots because they recognize them as their own or whatever...so it seems right, I haven't seen any root issues or slow growth.

here's a link on how to post pics if you needed any help.

sorry to ramble. I'm bored.

 

[FreezerBoy]

How to put images into your posts.

 

[DSM]

FIRST OFF
I forgot to label the picture. The square in the lower right corner is a birds eye view of the cab. The roundish things are to illustrate the beer cups. The box above it is to show how I tried to draw MY Floro fixtures I have.

I think I found the problem. The images always showed up when I was logged in. The image DID NOT show up when I was not logged in. I uploaded the pic to ICMag but album was set as private. I set public, and now it "seems" to always show up.

Can someone tell me if the picture shows up now?

I get what you mean about squeezing so many tubes side by side... I want to use CFL's just to keep it simple n cheap (enough) for now. I already have 2 - 2X24" floro fixtures, so since they are paid for... I also have a good number of 23w cfl's kicking around from my first grow. I have not decided how many cfl's or position, but I should have that figured out (and likely have the cab up n running) before the end of the weekend.

Yeah the square pot definitely sounds better than round for any tight fit. I hear you about the waste of the coiled cfl, maybe after I get a bit of growing done I will switch to something more efficient. 2 clones in a container, wow that sounds like a neat concept. I will be checking out/lurking blynx's threads asap. About the rambling, I appreciate and enjoyed your feedback. It was a good read, and not just rambling. Thanks.

The batwing reflector is interesting, as I will likely want to so something for a reflector. Why not go dual purpose!

Thanks guys

And thanks for mentioning that 7000 lumin figure, so I have something to work for the design.

 

[DSM]

I purchased a fan to use for ventilation and scrubbing. The fan blade type is "backward inclined centrifugal". I chose this fan because it claims to be VERY quiet while able to flow 120cfm. The fan also it seems to be able to work with "some" pressure / resistance, and is ideal for continuous duty applications. The specs of the fan are...

http://www.nutone.com/PDF/Specifications/ILF120spec.pdf
(IFL 120)

When using a carbon scrubber with this fan, do you think it would flow better if the filter is on the fans intake or outlet? Would there be much of a difference? Right now I am leaning towards putting the filter on the outlet to help muffle the fan (since it will vent to the room after the scrubber. The fan was kind of loud when I first tried it (and I thought about returning it, as $200 was too much for this fan to not be super quiet). Well its meant to be an inline fan, I plumbed it into my dryers vent pipe to test and see. BOO-YAH, it is indeed VERY quiet, so I decided to keep it. It seems the noise was turbulent air passing through the frame of the fan.

My cabinet will be about 6 cubic feet (and there will be two cabs hooked up in "serial" to the fan - so 12 cubic feet).

This fan claims it is suitable for use with a solid state speed controller. Can anyone recommend a suitable one? The fan is rated at .37 amps. MY concern is getting a controller I can trust (to last, and more over to not be a fire hazard - If you have ever order cheap stuff off ebay that was made in China - you KNOW the quality control is often non-existant).


LIGHTING

The blue area represents the a unique cooling tube - which will be the only way that air can leave the cab. It will be a manifold style. Air can enter at each of the 10 CFL's, but there is only 1 exit. The CFL mounts will be slightly inside the cool tube. The air will travel via a tube to the second cab.

The reason I want to do this, is that my fan and scrubber will take up over 1 cubic foot, and the cab is only about 6 cubic feet. The first cab will be for flowering. The second cab will be for veg / clones / mothers. I am undecided on lighting for the 2nd cab.

For the flower cab I am planning to use 10 - 42w CFL Bulbs. The ones I am currently testing out give off 2700 lumins. I may or may not add some 24" floro's. This puts me @ 27,000 lumins for 2.25 square feet or 12,000 lumins per square foot Sure I am likely using more light than I need, but I am VERY new to growing; I'm sure it won't hurt. Perhaps down the road I will want to optimize efficiency. In the mean time this will be FAR cheaper than what I spend now, so it's already incredibly "efficient" (Conservatively estimated @ 10 kw/h total electricity consumption per day).

 

[DSM]

How would you describe 12,000 lumins of CFL per square foot? Sweet, Perfect, excessive, extreme overkill??? This is where I am at without using any 24" floro's.

Also I should mention the cab is in an unheated basement (only the main floor is heated). Lately the temperature outdoors has been around 32f or slightly below. The ambient air temp in the basement has been a nippley 59 degree's. The basement will surely get colder with the winter. The basement is un-insulated. I am planning to have the basement insulated and dry walled before the new year. So hopefully the temperature will get better even when the winter gets colder. If The air is STILL too cold I figure I can cut the top off a bottle of Old English and fill it with water and drop in an aquarium heater. I figure this is easy enough and should be pretty cheap (I already have an empty old E bottle).


F*CK, has malt liqueur ever become expensive in Ontario - Over $5 . I wanted one for nostalgia. 40's were the liqueur of my youth).

 

[k1net1k]

thats really cool

 

[k1net1k]

How would you describe 12,000 lumins of CFL per square foot? Sweet, Perfect, excessive, extreme overkill???

I have seen good grows with about 10000

 

[DSM]

I think I will stick with all 10 bulbs to start. If at some point I feel like less lighting I can easily remove a couple, or install a few smaller bulbs. It's easy enough to tape off an open cooling tube (if I remove the light).

I did some testing in another thread I started. The test was far from research quality, but it showed promise for the idea. To sum it up, the case air dropped 0.9 (ambient air was only about 69f). The PEAK bulb temperature (as it was the only thing I could consistently measure) dropped from about 145 to 120 (about 21% cooler). For reference a bulb in the light socket of the test room had a peak temp of about 225. The CFL's GREATLY benefited from the normal cooling fan (although it was flowing more volume than any PC case would need for just fresh air needs, its still a small squirel cage blower).

The fan was given to me, and I cannot find specs so I decided to use a garbage bag and time the inflation to get a rough idea of the volume of air flow. I just did that test now and estimate it flows about 10 cfm, but this was a VERY I repeat VERY half assed attempt to figure out the fans volume.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Are you planning a reflector? I would be wary of shiny mirror-like ones. I think the IR could get nasty with so much cfl wattage. Hope it goes well for you.

 

[DSM]

I've decided I will only be using CFL's. No Floro's.

When I started designing the cab I was not planning on using a reflector. Somewhere along the way the idea of a reflector gained my interest. I know nothing about reflectors. Can you recommend some good reading? What are your thoughts on a reflector for my high wattage cab?

Is IR heat "radiant"? If so I guess air flow would help you cool the leaves a small bit by the cooling air passing over the warm leaf? (but only a small amount, as the air does not remove the IR heat itself?).

 

[ScrubNinja]

Well, basically the IR will kill the leaf, so it's a bit of a non issue. And yep, it's radiant, kind of like microwave heat I believe. Airflow won't stop it (well, mostly, at least), as you seem to know. It always seems to be caused by shiny reflectors focusing hot-spots of energy. I think it was one of Realistik's cabs that show a great example of it (it penetrated through the vented heat shield). Maybe it was mk3jetta's cab... can't remember anymore, lulz.

Personally I'd keep it very simple - just a flat board over each side of the CFL Y's, if that makes sense? sort of an upside down V, but the Y bases would be sticking through the centre. I could see you getting more elaborate though.

Here is a great link with some figures.

I would have liked to see you do a magiccannabus style grow with the fluoros. I checked out one brand I use (Osram) and compared the lumens of their 18w t8 tube to their 18w CFL, and the tube had more lumens. Combine this with the fact they are really easy to reflect efficiently, often have SPD's, and also the fact that MC's old cab setup is one of my faves of all time, and it would have been a winner. But the CFL thing is still cool of course. Looking forward to this.

*also the Osram fluoro tube I use/compared is the cheapest one.