Very slow growth, crazy leaf loss, HELP

[bali_man]

Do you always grow in coco? How often are you watering? You're sure the only thing you did different is nuke the coco? Are all of your cuttings the same or are there different strains. Is every single one suffering the same symtoms?

No I've done soil and DWC in the past, along with coco, I've had 3 runs with coco, flushed the medium with Mg,Ca,Fe to displace coco's affinity with K, hehe all the proper steps were taken.

I've really scrutinized every step I took, and cooking the coco was the only thing I did diff. I mean I did cook the shit out of it. I had to wait about 12 hours for the shit to cool down to room temp. So I don't know at this point. I've got about a dozen different strains. Mostly Chem variants, Original SD, HBand, a few different cuts of OG. Yes friend, they're all suffering, not the same symptoms per se, but they've definitely got some deficiency looking symptoms going on. Can you see the pictures I upped?

I did have some soil plants way back when that were overwatered (newbie), so I'm familiar with overwatering and the effects of it, and someone mentioned looked like overwatering, ya, I can see how it looks that way, but the coco looks very comfy and moist, never had it soggy.

I'll snap some root pictures right now and up them.

 

[Scrogerman]

Its looks like they are all locked up or cant take in vital elemants. Mowb-Flush fuck out of them & start again with ya normal irrigations. Looks like something/a few things are displaced or locked out.(You seen to know about K in coco) Looking at your grow as ive said it is my belief that the co2 is in too high concentrations. As you have pointed out you have used these massive ammounts of co2 with no occuring problems before. OK that just goes against everything i have ever read on gardening with co2(MJ), ive read quite a bit over the years,(But it has been a long time) i could just never afford to get it rigged up. So could you give us a link or tell us what the boundaries are with co2&MJ? Your co2 levels and why you use this ppm strength air to gas mix, & what effects this has on plant growth.
What do you know that the books ive read dont, thats what im trying to say,your saying they were wrong or giving us half the info. & i aint gonna be happy if ive wasted my time with all the reading ive done before on the subject-No-one like wasting their own time!. You have my attention now. Tell us what you know buddy?

Peace .......Scrog'

 

[fizzy187]

Hey bali...hey scrogerman. I think your bang on...

I had similar issues while in flower thou, but there was two things that contributed (my yellow leaves look like yours, fan leave huge are yellowed for the most part too and the rest of the plants show super N defficiencies.

The 2 things that contributed to my issues (in flower) were;
1. nute temps. I'd been feeding at 10'C (22'C is the recommended avg.) (notice that due to the lockouts the plant will feed more water than nutes, until they start to eat at the ppm, theyre in stasis.

2. topping res off too late in the week before having to mix out a new batch so plants have 1.8ec during the first day...second day down to what 1.6ec by the 3rd day of the week they would probably be nearing 1.0ec leave alone end of the wk!


My nute temps i sorta ignored since my res heater broke...but im gonna deal with it today actually!
Im in week 6 of flower and my plants look like week 2/3, honestly. So i've guestimated (which is ever changing) end of feb harvest so another 7wks from now (inc flush).

And thats even if they make it that far...i gave up on hope of yeild..now its about seeing them through.

I've noticed however during this sort of super slow stasis like development, trich production is on the rise!

Hope that helps

Cheers!

 

[growcodile]

yeah id still say food is too low .. (in EC values, im not very familiar with ppm ..
maybe try flushing the shit out of them and start a mid range veg feed .. i hope that helps in a few days

 

[mdanzig]

Man, I cant believe no one sees the "true" problem here, and its very easy to see. You have to immedietly transplant all of your plants in bigger pots right NOW. Use a good soil mix, like Pro-mix, or even Miracle grow, in two weeks you will notice a huge difference. If your going to use coco, them add Bat guano, and maybe some worm castings to ammend any soil-mix, add to miracle grow, or pro-mix as well. All of your plants are sick because there are root constraints, and the light looks to be burning your plants, and all of your Nitrogen has been depleted. Those cups are way too small, and will heat up quickly, and use up all of the available nutes quickly. Raise your light as well. Also, consistantly watering will use up what little is available.

 

[mdanzig]

Big pots are better

Big pots are better

Here is an example of what you should be doing. Grow your plants in much bigger cups, and transplant appropriately.

ven for autos like mine.

 

[Scrogerman]

Very Pretty Mdanzig,
Loving your root ball there & its lenght.
What is your exact mix there buddy, i'm looking at doing some AF's Next year(Soil-Mixes- for greenhouse,outdoor).
Loving ya style man! Do you leave the transplant elevated like that, beacause you are accounting for MJ's root set there - ie 'air & water roots?-Very-Cool!
Peace........Scrog'

 

[Buffoonman]

Excellant advice Mdanzig.

 

[growcodile]

oh well i now see too that you are using small plastic cups .. i thought they were bigger .. mdanzig nailed it straight to the floor

 

[Beach Bum420]

hey bali man. you don't seem to listen very well to what people are telling you....espicially about the co2. look at it this way....above the mediun plants need cor to metabolize. inside your grow mediun your roots need oxygen, room to grow, no light penetration, proper nutes (at the right ratio and concentration)and correct ph. with all that co2 in a confined space how are your roots getting o2? co2 is heavier than o2 and settles to the lowest point.
my recomendation for what its worth is;
1. immediatly transplant to larger light proof pots.
2. sterilize your coco with a strong h2o2 soloution and then flush thoroughly with water that has been boiled and cooled (that will kill all the little nasties that might be in the water).
3 feed nutes only till your plants are healthy and growing strongly.
....OR......
keep doin' what you are doin and watch them die.
Just my 2 cents worth
Da beach bum

 

[Beach Bum420]

By the way I may not post a lot.....but I have been growing my own smoke for about 30 years. I still learn new things becuz I have an open mind!

 

[mdanzig]

I use 44-64 ounce cups, nothing smaller. Thats only if I'm using cups just to start my grow. I have pretty much always used those cups from 7/11, because, they are easy to get, and will work with what I do, and thats breeding with autos.

oh well i now see too that you are using small plastic cups .. i thought they were bigger .. mdanzig nailed it straight to the floor

 

[bballsk8er333]

i think a plant half your size would be rootbound in that cup. youve grown before?:S

well anyways, roots gathering up into a rootball is no good, so take the cup off and i bet its a solid white mass

 

[pineappaloupe]

Rootbound.

 

[bali_man]

I use 44-64 ounce cups, nothing smaller. Thats only if I'm using cups just to start my grow. I have pretty much always used those cups from 7/11, because, they are easy to get, and will work with what I do, and thats breeding with autos.

Thx for all the input. I'll respectfully ask some people to kindly do as they say, and keep an open mind and realize that there are others who as well have spent years trying different things out, and might have arrived at different conclusions as to what's best.

After a ridiculous amount of time spent looking into this matter, it appears that the nutes have gone bad to some degree. I mixed up a quart of what the girls were drinking and gave some to a friend and asked him to try it on one of his coco girls, sure enough he just emailed me saying there's some weirdness taking place in that plant. I was using the 1 part FN series, and I was shaking the shit out of it (it's almost like syrup in consistency). Perhaps shit reacted from sitting on a store shelf for too long. Never would have guessed it as I've been using it forever with perfect results every time.

So thanks again for all who gave meaningful well thought input. It's always greatly appreciated.

PS:

Some people wanted clairification about a few things. Some people jump spread misinformation and I think that's the greatest injustice. Growing is a science. I was surprised by the amount of confusion over c02 and whatnot. I was even more surprised at some suggestions of why use it in veg, over 1500 is a waste, etc.... Sorry to say but this is very stupid.

A little background:
Carbon dioxide (CO2) forms approximately 0.04% of the nominal 5,000,000 gigatonnes of gas and aerosols that comprise the Earth's atmosphere. (This means its on average 400ppm)

So we see that 400ppm is = to 0.04% of total gases.
"growers" recommend 1500ppm and that = 0.15% of your grow environments total co2 gas concentration.
I use approx 2500ppm and that = 0.25% of my grow environments total co2 concentration.

Now Toxicity:
For humans, co2, at 1% concentration which = 10,000ppm, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.
.....at 8% which = 80,000ppm causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.

the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration says that average exposure for healthy adults during an eight-hour work day should not exceed 5,000 ppm (0.5%).

.....starting to make sense....

now if the cost of co2 is not an issue.....why would you stop at 1500? Does it cost more to maintain higher concentrations? Absolutely! Is it worth it? I'll just put it like this. If you were able to increase yields by...lets say a further 5% by enriching past the 1500ppm point would it be worth it? That totally depends on the scale of your grow. If you are harvesting 5kg, then I'm sure you'd welcome the extra 250g you'd get. If you are harvesting 500grams, then perhaps it wont be worth using that much extra co2 and only getting 25 grams more.
As far as the whole co2 is heavier than air... Agreed, and that is why we use fans and other tools to stir around and recreate air movement.....like nature. We ARE trying to mimic the perfect natural environment. At least I am.


Another often sighted issue was pot size. I intentionally grow all my plants to become heavily rooted and pot bound, as this places positive stress on the roots and encourages aggressive explosion of root growth when they are transplanted.

I have been using this technique for as long as I can remember, and I've come to certain conclusions. Roots = yield. Veg = roots. Smaller cups dry out sooner, thus increase the frequency of feedings/waterings, increasing growth rate, and as a plus avoiding, as some mentioned OVER WATERING issues.

Let me show you. ......

This is what normally happens when everything is perfect:

Notice 16 ounce cups are more than adequate for a 2 foot plant. the growth rate is profuse once transplanted into a 3 gallon bag to finish flowering.

Another 16 oz cup plant.... She's nearing 20 inches tall.

And here are her roots. Note: only reason that they're a bit stained is because of my use of humic and fulvic acids. They really dye the roots almost brown.

And here is a modest widow =) again 16 oz.

So I say try something before claiming it as insane or unheard of. And these plants are NEVER feed over 450 ppm until they go into bloom, and at that point never over 1100. I've come to find that the humic acids along with beneficial soil fungi are crucial in relaying the nutes in the most readily usable manner to the plant. Hence achieving more with less, and the only drawback to co2 use is that at concentrations above 1000 ppm requires a slight bump of micro nutrients, as it might cause slight deficiencies in micro nutes.

Oh in case it wasn't known, plants are c02 neutral in the sense that they themselves release co2. In the presence of light they are converting the C02 to Oxygen & creating 'Glucose'(Photosynthesis).
In the Absence of light the plants are using the 02 & burning the Glucose to create C02 (Respiration).

Lastly as someone who doesn't post often, happened to stop by and mention..... yes I do not particularly like the idea of listening to what everyone has to say and applying everything being said. That is not the purpose of the community nor the reasons why I come here. We hold discussions on forums and discussions lead to thought and a few people mentioned increasing the feeding, and this lead me to look more closely at the food being the issue (since we were seeing deficiency symptoms), and hence testing it with someone else, and finally finding the problem.
Why would I listen to someone who is not seeing the plants first hand, and is basing it on cup size when for 8 years I've been using the 12 - 16 oz cup technique with beautiful results?? I didn't make the post to receive those type of replies, even though they are welcome, and appreciated. I'm not here to argue so I hope its all taken constructively!

 

[Scrogerman]

Fair Play, you never said all that in the first place, maybe you should have & then everyone would of had a better picture of what is going on!!(you said it like you always use upto 2600 ppms)
You still aint anwsered my Q though. What can MJ actually take in terms of co2 then, as your dosing method is way higher than anything i have ever read or heard, that info spanning over 20 years, although basic, it was what i always believed. Like i said i dont like wasting my time or being mis-informed. Have you a link there to the relevent info please buddy, i'm very interested in what you are doing there with co2 and want to learn! So you are saying the books i have read were misinforming me or giving half information(same-Thing). BTW the writers of the books i have read are thought of as world leaders on MJ Growing-without doubt!
Thanks & Peace........................Scrog'

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Ok, my first post came before the pics of the rootbound plants. If I'd seen them, I would have said the exact same thing as mdanzig. I still say the CO2 is too high too. Basically, you have the same general problem as many new growers, too many 'treatments' goin' on. Something like CO2 should be thought of as an 'icing on the cake' to be used by the expert grower. In other words, you have your grow so perfectly dialed in that your plants can make use of it. When your plants are in less than perfect health, CO2 is just another unknown variable to complicate daignosis.

Repot. And consider trying something with some more stuff in there than coco, like maybe some lime or maybe (as another poster suggested) some garden soil.