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"Insanity" of Prohibition Affirmed on Appeal

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
This one comes to us from Canada.

You may have heard about Canada's Bill C-15 and all those crazy live-and-let-live judges up in Canada who are too lax on giving marijuana growers their come uppance.

Truth is, sometimes they can be pretty lax. But as this recent decision demonstrates, it's not how lax you are, it's how you justify it that matters.

Which brings us to a decision released yesterday by the Court of Appeal for Ontario in the case of R. v. Song.

The facts are simple. The accused, Mr. Zyu Song, pleaded guilty to growing over 1,400 marijuana plants -- whilst splicing a power line and stealing the electricity to do it, too. It was his first offence. There was no other sob story about illness, drug addiction, family violence, bad childhood. No, none of that. The grower was doing it for the cash; pure and simple.

So, how to sentence such villainy?

Mr. Justice Allen of Ontario's Superior Court of Justice had to determine just that when Mr. Song appeared before him to answer for his grave crime.

The Crown was seeking a sentence of about 18 months. Luckily for Mr. Song, the trial judge was having none of it. On that day, the trial judge was in no mood to play his normal role in the support of Prohibition.

Almost invariably, trial judges couch their language in the time honoured way of referring to all of the sentencing principles known to the law with a nod and insisting how important they all are. Then, after paying homage and lip service, the judge exercises his or her discretion in the way that best fits "the criminal and the crime" to justify the sentence they wish to impose.

But this time, Justice Allen departed from the time honoured practice and veered into very dangerous waters. The trial judge decided that instead of paying lip service to all of the sentencing principles first, he would instead be openly honest about it.

How honest is honest? Take a look:

During Submissions:

Crown: … I think there will be a general deterrence.

The Court: What’s your basis for saying that? Because nobody has been deterred. People have been going to jail for drug offences for – for a couple of generations now and the drug – the drug plague is worse than it ever was.

Crown: Well, there’s – yes. There’s no statistical ...

The Court: If – if something doesn’t work, do I try doing it again and again to see if it does work?

Crown: I would …

The Court: I think there’s …

Crown: There’s no way of knowing …

The Court: Isn’t that the definition of insanity?
Careful ICM readers will note that Mr. Justice Allen was paraphrasing Albert Einstein in the above passage. If you missed it, don't feel too bad.

It appears that Canada's largest appellate court would have the national media believe that they missed it too. (Psst: Not a chance.)

The Court of Appeal, in hearing the appeal from the sentence handed out to Mr. Song, wrote:

"The sentencing judge refused to apply both the provisions of the Criminal Code and binding jurisprudence mandating that general and specific deterrence be taken into account in arriving at an appropriate sentence in cases of this nature: Criminal Code, s. 718(b).

Yet the sentencing judge discounted general deterrence, to the point of suggesting it would be “insane” to consider it."
Do you think the judges on the Court of Appeal really missed it? Hmmm. Stick around; it gets better.

After supposedly missing the reference to Einstein, The Court of Appeal then had the following to say:

"The sentencing judge’s reasons make it clear – albeit in breezy and colourful fashion – that he personally has little use for a sentencing regime that seeks to cope with marijuana offences by relying upon principles of deterrence and by the imposition of “real” jail sentences. This is reflected in the passage above, for example, and reinforced in the following excerpts:

"The aggravating factors in a case like this are really the things that are incidental to the criminalization of the activity. Sources as conservative as The Economist Magazine and the Fraser Institute think-tank in this country, which are very, very conservative organizations maintain that drug prohibition is an absolute failure and that we would do less damage to ourselves if the whole undertaking were dismantled.

This is particularly appropriate in the case of marijuana, according to their arguments, because really what we’re doing by prohibiting the production and consumption of marijuana is giving the Hell’s Angels several billion dollars worth of income every year which is then turned into investments in what would otherwise be legitimate businesses.

So I quite frankly, simply, do not buy into the idea that by treating individuals like this harshly notwithstanding their lack of a record and the nature of the substance that they were producing that I am going to improve things at all. Likewise, the issue with home invasions, if this were not illegal then there would not be the home invasions. So, it is not an intrinsic aspect of growing marijuana that people are going to bust in on you with guns and try and take it away from you, it is rather a function of the fact that it is illegal."
The Court of Appeal's point in citing the above passage was to "admonish" the trial judge to the media, which had previously had a field day in reporting on the sentence -- and most especially the reasons of the trial judge -- in the national press.

Similarly, the Court of Appeal took the trial judge to task for this heresy:
"And as I commented in submissions from counsel … I do not understand the idea of deterrence in this area. I do not know that there are, for example, fewer grow operations in Hamilton than there are in Brampton, even though you are likely to go to jail for real in Hamilton and less likely to do so here.

I do know that in the United States, which makes us look like we are all living in Northwestern Europe by comparison, a country which has huge numbers of people serving life without parole for growing marijuana or trafficking in moderate amounts of it, that drugs are as available there, or perhaps more available than they are in jurisdictions where the laws are more lenient. I am given to understand the chances of a Dutch teenager smoking marijuana are substantially lower than they are of an American teenager smoking marijuana. And the Dutch teenager can walk down to the corner and get it at a coffee shop."
The Court of Appeal's response to this?

"There was no evidence to support any of these observations."

But then the Court of Appeal gets to the meat of the matter and says this:

"Whether these views have merit is a debate for another forum – one in which judges do not participate. Personal diatribes of the nature engaged in by the sentencing judge here are unhelpful, however, and demonstrate to us a lack of objectivity that undermines the deference generally afforded to judges. The principle of deference is not a license for the sentencing judge to defy settled jurisprudence, ignore the principles of the Criminal Code, or use his or her dais as a political podium."
The message to trial judges? It isn't your place to question the law openly. It's your place to pay it lip service and then find a proper judicial way around laws you don't like.

Which the Court of Appeal for Ontario then proceeded to do, in a proper judicially dishonest fashion.

[18] The dilemma we face, however, is the practical reality that Mr. Song has completely served the sentence imposed on him. This Court is reluctant to send people to, or back to, prison in such circumstances. Had we been dealing with this matter de novo at trial, a period of incarceration would clearly have been warranted. Indeed, had the matter come to us in a timely fashion before the conditional sentence had been served, we would have imposed a custodial term.

[19]In the end – without taking away from any of our observations above – we are not persuaded that it would serve the interests of justice to send Mr. Song to prison at this point. Accordingly, while leave to appeal sentence is granted, the appeal as to sentence must be dismissed.
So the appeal is dismissed and Mr. Song - who had no previous criminal record - was not ordered into jail. He walked with only 12 months under house arrest for 1,400 plants and a spliced power line growing dope in Canada's largest metropolitan area.

So what to make of all of this?

1 - Judges cannot directly challenge the principle of deterrence or attack the laws of the state as being irrational or purposeless. That is not a judge's role.

And the second message?

2 - By referring to precedent and judicial reasoning to accomplish the same goal indirectly, the Court of Appeal then showed judges in Ontario how to properly let a grower of 1,400 plants off of the hook.

As soon as I read the decision, I recognized that there was no way that a judge like Justice Michael Moldaver could have missed a reference to Albert Einstein. That was the cue that I was about to read decision that was written in judicial code.

One part is written for judges and lawyers (this is how you do it without making a public fuss); the other part for the media (how naughty and liberal our judges can be - -but see - we have it all under control).

Predictably, Canada's largest daily newspaper, The Toronto Star, utterly missed the coded message, and falls for the candy doled out to the media:

"Judge berated for lax sentencing on marijuana"

"The Ontario Court of Appeal rebuked a Brampton trial judge today for suggesting it would be a form of "insanity" to jail a man for running a large-scale marijuana grow operation from his home."

The link to the newspaper article is here. They miss every clue, too:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...-berated-for-lax-sentencing-on-marijuana?bn=1
 
B

Blue Dot

I couldn't even finish all that but I can say that judge is the one who is insane because the US laws DEFINATELY deter ME from growing 1400 plants.

Obviously the laws in Canada aren't a deterent because they aren't stiff enough.

If that judge had sentenced that guy like they did eddy lepp then I'm sure he'd see more of a deterent in Canada.
 

Pythagllio

Patient Grower
Veteran
Yes, I've noticed there's been a lot less cannabis availability in CA this last year since Eddy Lepp was sentenced. It's all people ever say to me, 'You know I'd grow a lot of plants, but Eddy Lepp got 20 years!". Those outdoor grows busted have gotten much smaller, why CAMP barely ever finds more than 100 plants at a time anymore. There's not a bumper crop of outdoor cannabis in CA this year. Yes, the laws are working ever so well. [/sarcasm]
 
B

Blue Dot

Yes, I've noticed there's been a lot less cannabis availability in CA this last year since Eddy Lepp was sentenced. It's all people ever say to me, 'You know I'd grow a lot of plants, but Eddy Lepp got 20 years!". Those outdoor grows busted have gotten much smaller, why CAMP barely ever finds more than 100 plants at a time anymore. There's not a bumper crop of outdoor cannabis in CA this year. Yes, the laws are working ever so well. [/sarcasm]

If they're are not so detered how come you don't see those grows along the roadside like eddy did?

Obviously they bury those grows DEEP in the woods because they are scared. Being scared is one indication of deterence.

Wait, did you just argue that pot is so plentiful in cali due to no one being detered?

Why the Fuk do you think D's and dealers can charge what they do, because pot isn't plentiful, it's scarce as shit.
 

Pythagllio

Patient Grower
Veteran
You are arguing from the specific to the general. Yes, certain people are deterred. Quite frankly, it's the people that we as a society want in charge of the business that are deterred from entering the business.

Why is it every time I talk to you that you claim I say things that I've never said? Is there some kind of pathological personality defect that makes you such a liar? No, I never said that no one is being deterred, your spinning bullshit from whole cloth, as is your habit. Why not try being an honest person for a change?
 
B

Blue Dot

Yes, I've noticed there's been a lot less cannabis availability in CA this last year since Eddy Lepp was sentenced. It's all people ever say to me, 'You know I'd grow a lot of plants, but Eddy Lepp got 20 years!". Those outdoor grows busted have gotten much smaller, why CAMP barely ever finds more than 100 plants at a time anymore. There's not a bumper crop of outdoor cannabis in CA this year. Yes, the laws are working ever so well. [/sarcasm]

No, I never said that no one is being deterred, your spinning bullshit from whole cloth, as is your habit. Why not try being an honest person for a change?

lol :rolleyes:
 

Pythagllio

Patient Grower
Veteran

...and he repeats his bald faced lie by inference.

C'mon, tell us the insiders POV on being a liar, why is it that you think that dishonesty is the better policy?


"‘When I use a word,’ BlueDot said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
 

burnedout

Member
If they're are not so detered how come you don't see those grows along the roadside like eddy did?

Obviously they bury those grows DEEP in the woods because they are scared. Being scared is one indication of deterence.

Wait, did you just argue that pot is so plentiful in cali due to no one being detered?

Why the Fuk do you think D's and dealers can charge what they do, because pot isn't plentiful, it's scarce as shit.

They don't plant their grows along the roadside because they want to actually harvest the plants. Seems pretty obvious really.

The majority of large grows that get cut in the CA forests never end up with a single arrest, so it seems hard to argue that many people are scared of the harsh penalties associated with said gardens.
 
B

Blue Dot

They don't plant their grows along the roadside because they want to actually harvest the plants. Seems pretty obvious really.

Obviously they bury those grows DEEP in the woods because they are scared. Being scared is one indication of deterence.




The majority of large grows that get cut in the CA forests never end up with a single arrest, so it seems hard to argue that many people are scared of the harsh penalties associated with said gardens.

Duh, because the odds of being on the scene while CAMP swoops in is next to zero.

Who stays and waters their garden when helios are hovering overhead? :rolleyes:

Really, your arguing that you would have no compunction about maintaing a 1400 plant garden and the legality (and resultant penalties) wouldn't even enter your mind.

That's just insanity.
 

burnedout

Member
Duh, because the odds of being on the scene while CAMP swoops in is next to zero.

Who stays and waters their garden when helios are hovering overhead? :rolleyes:

Really, your arguing that you would have no compunction about maintaing a 1400 plant garden and the legality (and resultant penalties) wouldn't even enter your mind.

That's just insanity.

I don't even know where to start with you. As evidenced by your futile attempt at a reply, you obviously don't get it.

Why would I be scared in the least to maintain a large grow in the woods when you yourself state there is next to no chance of being arrested EVEN IF my grow is discovered and raided?
 

Pythagllio

Patient Grower
Veteran
It's got nothing to do with being 'deterred', and everything with going with the lowest priced option.

What BD doesn't understand is that deterrence should be judged overall, not on an individual level. Yes, there are people are deterred from growing because of the law but there are people who step in because of the extra profits.

Seizure laws are deterring people from growing on private property. This encourages people to grow on public property to fill the need.

The law deters people from running high electric bills. This encourages people to steal electricity.

But the fact remains that the people that are deterred are the people we want running the business. The law encourages those who aren't law abiding, ethical people to fill the need.

When was the last time you heard 'where is all the pot'? Back in the late '70s and early '80s the entire market literally dried up in late summer/early fall. There was none to be had for love or money. Penalties for distribution are way more egregious than back then, yet the supply chain is a heckuva lot more reliable.
 
B

Blue Dot

It's got nothing to do with being 'deterred', and everything with going with the lowest priced option.

What BD doesn't understand is that deterrence should be judged overall, not on an individual level. Yes, there are people are deterred from growing because of the law but there are people who step in because of the extra profits.

Seizure laws are deterring people from growing on private property. This encourages people to grow on public property to fill the need.

The law deters people from running high electric bills. This encourages people to steal electricity.

But the fact remains that the people that are deterred are the people we want running the business. The law encourages those who aren't law abiding, ethical people to fill the need.

I actually agree with this post. :jawdrop:
 

coolx

Active member
Why the Fuk do you think D's and dealers can charge what they do, because pot isn't plentiful, it's scarce as shit.

I have no idea who fuck you are BD, and why there are so many people ragging on you on so many threads, but I do know one thing - you're a moron. Pot is so scarce?!!! Have you been to LA lately? 1,000 dispensaries, top quality outdoor grandaddy purple going for $2,200 a pound - it seems the Mexican Mafia has finally learned to grow quality pot - so much pot around, 1/8's are mostly - not all - in the $40's. So much outdoor, so much indoor .... and mainly quality buds.

Oh wait a minute, I apologize. I misunderstood you. I mean you DID say pot was scarce as shit - and we all know how scarce that is, with everyone on the planet dispensing about a pound or two a day. So you were actually dead on.
 
B

Blue Dot

I have no idea who fuck you are BD, and why there are so many people ragging on you on so many threads, but I do know one thing - you're a moron. Pot is so scarce?!!! Have you been to LA lately? 1,000 dispensaries, top quality outdoor grandaddy purple going for $2,200 a pound - it seems the Mexican Mafia has finally learned to grow quality pot - so much pot around, 1/8's are mostly - not all - in the $40's. So much outdoor, so much indoor .... and mainly quality buds.

Oh wait a minute, I apologize. I misunderstood you. I mean you DID say pot was scarce as shit - and we all know how scarce that is, with everyone on the planet dispensing about a pound or two a day. So you were actually dead on.

When supply goes up price goes down.

But wait, it's still expensive for the customer at a D or a dealer so that means the only price that has come down is the price the D's are paying the foolish growers.
 

Pythagllio

Patient Grower
Veteran
Checked prices on the East Coast lately BD? I'm expecting medical grade in DC to have a starting price over $100 eighth when they get the initial Ds up and running. Don't you worry your pretty little head though, my goal in DC is to suck from the gov't teat.

I got here on '05 and retail prices of medical grade have done nothing but decline. It's too bad there's no centralized stats available, like AAA average price of gasoline. Then I'd be able to prove your full of shit on your claim that the D's can set pricing with no regard to supply. Then again anyone with sense knows your full of shit anyway.
 

Babbabud

Bodhisattva of the Earth
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Mexican Mafia

Mexican Mafia

Duh, because the odds of being on the scene while CAMP swoops in is next to zero.

Who stays and waters their garden when helios are hovering overhead? :rolleyes:

Really, your arguing that you would have no compunction about maintaing a 1400 plant garden and the legality (and resultant penalties) wouldn't even enter your mind.

That's just insanity.

They are constantly finding giant grows in california and then saying well we didnt catch anyone ... but we did find 30k MJ plants but the suspects ran off into the woods. We know it was mexican mafia because we found tortillas. We all know the "THEY" are planting these giant grows to keep the federal money coming in to extend their war on drugs. All the equipment they have and they cant catch a few mexicans running through the woods ... Bullshit !!
 

Babbabud

Bodhisattva of the Earth
ICMag Donor
Veteran
BS

BS

I couldn't even finish all that but I can say that judge is the one who is insane because the US laws DEFINATELY deter ME from growing 1400 plants.

Obviously the laws in Canada aren't a deterent because they aren't stiff enough.

If that judge had sentenced that guy like they did eddy lepp then I'm sure he'd see more of a deterent in Canada.

For anyone to do any jail time for pot is an atrocity.
 

bombadil.360

Andinismo Hierbatero
Veteran
this judge is cool; I understand the OP too... I do not think they missed the reference nor the context, they simply spin doctored it to suit their bullshit cause.

it is obvious the point the judge was making by defining insanity as repeating the same action over and over and yet expecting a different result from the one that is always obtained.

in the context that the war on drugs is insane because the war keeps on going, people keep on going to jail, getting killed, and yet illegal drugs are as available as ever.

which means it is insane to try to solve the issue through the same old ways.

just re writing the obvious here...
 

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