Very slow growth, crazy leaf loss, HELP

[bali_man]

I've run out of solutions. I desperately need some help here.

I'm growing in coco, canna brand to be exact.

Ph of water is always between 5.6-5.8, and they are watered as per coco should be watered, where they are always moist, but never drenched. I use a pick up method to determine watering intervals.

Temp range with lights on is between 77-82, lights off 74-77
Humidity is between 40-50%.
CO2 is between 1600-2600 PPM

I water them with approx 250ppm Flora Nova series which is approx 2 MLs per gallon. With that they receive sm90, a drop of calmag, a few drops of vitamin b1, some silicon, and some liquid karma.

The growth has been snail paced. And for every new fan leaf, they are losing 3.

I've flushed them with ph 6 water. and started from scratch. Still the same.

They're in 12 ounce cups waiting some healthy growth to be transplanted to then flower.

Some of the plants are under 200 watts of tube floros blue and red spectrum. And the others are under a 250 watt MH.
To me the plant has its co2, its nutrients, and light, so I can't see whats amiss at this point.

I'll go take some pictures now and upload them, perhaps it might be helpful in diagnosing this.

Oh and they're clean of pests, Pm shit like that. They came as healthy looking cuttings and considering I've transplanted thousands of cuttings over the years and I didn't do anything differently, I can't understand what went wrong. Some of the transplants are from the beginning of november and they're still struggling to put on a few inches.

Only thing that I can think of that I did differently is I microwaved the coco for a few minutes to guard against anything. Could that be to blame????

Chime in, I'm getting dangerously close to losing some really good genetics.

 

[Moneygrowonweed]

get some pics up maybe try transplanting pics would help out a lot what you are doing sounds good but need more details pics would be very helpful. sorry

 

[growcodile]

why do you have raised co2 levels when you have plants probs ? imho co2 should ONLY be used when all other parameters are maxed out ... as you have probs, your other params dont seem to be top notch ..

now just a wild guess into the blue ... you are feeding way too few to your babes!
300ppm = 0,4-0,5 ec which sounds quite low to me ...

try to foliar feed them for a quick help/fix .. and raise the food up to 1,0 EC at least imho!
in veg on coco levels should be from 0,8 (clone) up to 1,3 .. but 0,4-0,5 sounds way too low imho!

 

[Scrogerman]

2600ppm's shit bro no wonder you got problems. Not only is that way too high it's toxic to them dude, cant be very good for you either, seen any pink zebra's lately-lol.
CO2 should be 1500ppm's maximum!!yeah thats where you are going wrong bro' i double checked your spec's.Take it down to 1200-1500ppms. I'd bet money it will fix all your issues. Word!
Peace..........Scrog'

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Agree with Scrogerman, those levels are about what my friend was using to try and kill SM's. Also, 12oz cups are small and my plants quickly outgrow them, maybe a week at most. Do they need a repot?

 

[bali_man]

 

[abnorml]

Hey Bali,
I don't have any input on coco, I've never used it. I thought it may be a root issue, but root probs are often accompanied by a bad smell in your rez/media and ph fluctuations. I think the 300ppms is fine. I've had 2ft tall by 3ft wide moms that ran on 200 ppms for weeks without issue. Your CO2 levels are really high. Even at 1500ppm, if you don't have really good circulation in the room, the levels of co2 at plant level can be way higher since its heavier than O2.
I would definately drop your co2 to 1000ppms til you get this figured out then raise 100ppms at a time til you get to 1500.
Can or have you tried to take a peek at your roots?

 

[bali_man]

really everyone thinks co2 levels are too high? I've been at around this level for several runs with no adverse issues, but explosive growth.... I was thinking more nutes might have gone bad or something.
From my science background co2 would be problematic and dangerous for plants and myself near 50,000 ppm levels.

But I have looked at roots healthy and white for the most part. some were already looking like they're root bound.

As far as the feeding ppm and the cups being too small, I'm really trying to minimize stress at this point until I can fix whatever is wrong. I also foliar them with a 1/8 strength LK, and nute spray, hasn't made a difference yet. Perhaps the pictures will help. Here's more. Thx everyone!

 

[contra]

Hey Bali, interesting looking guys/gals there. You wouldn't be by any chance using environmental selective pressure to cull out some inbreeding traits would you? There is obviously more than just one issue going on there. Light penetration to the roots, for instance, can keep the root system very small. Are you watering with softened/chlorinated water? If you pinpoint a few problems, you can always trim them down a bit and sort of start over. You need some life in that coco, just walk outside, grab some nasty looking dirt(free of inorganics of course) and fill the cups a little higher if you dont plan to repot just yet. It may be worth noting that too much too fast can be detrimental to overall well-being. Whatever you keep out of this run that passes all your tests will surely be some dank when you dial him/her in? Keep us posted on your progress whatever direction you go!

 

[MrBomDiggitty]

yea, just grab some dirt from outside and mix it in with your plants, that way you'll have bug problems, too!

 

[abnorml]

Damn Bali

You definately have issues. I know everyones saying co2, and they're right about the levels, but looking at the pics, you have an uptake issue. If those were in dirt I'd say you were overwatering given the fact that your nutes and ph are ok. Do you flood with a timer or manually water. How often are they watered lights on and lights off? Also, if your roots are all the way to the edge of those white cups, they're getting lots of light too. If you had a little canopy of leaves going, it wouldn't be an issue probably, but theres not much stopping penetration right now. I still think the roots maybe staying too wet though. Anyone else agree?

 

[Scrogerman]

That light looks too close for young plants, i'd have it at least 24-36" away at this stage.
Them ppm levels are way too high dude, read up on levels used for mj. 1500 is the absolute max ive ever seen anyone trying to go.
Cant remeber at what level it becomes toxic too the plants but i think its around 2-2500 ppms. 50.000 ppms i shudder to think.!lol
Co2 levels affects allsorts.
adverse health conditions in humans can be expected of levels above 2500ppms, drowsiness at 2000ppms
ya plants are likely to first yellow then die at levels that are much above 1500ppm's
So i dont know what they were teaching you in ya science background dude!
Like i said before i would bet money on this one- ANYONE!

 

[Scrogerman]

If ya got everything else right and everyone is telling you No NO stop thats too much, dont that sort of tell ya something dude.
1000ppm's would be ample in this situation like someone mentioned before!
Or-Watch em completely go yellow like your flushing em & then they WILL die
2600ppm's im sure is toxic to em bro'

 

[growcodile]

i dont get why you would want to use co2 at this point at all .. massive uptake probs, you surely dont want to accelerate those too ?
doesnt co2 only make sense when everythings else running fine ? light, nutes, etc ..

 

[Scrogerman]

By the looks of things that is exactly whats going on GC'.2600ppm's lol-Heavey mann!
I'm sure i would actually \\Trip the fk out;' Pink Zebra's everywhere!
Peace Scrog'(any one evert been high on co2 - Yeah baby ive tried it & dont advise the experience i had either, very dangerous!-It was just like someone plugged me in to the mains in a fucked up solvent sort of way, not that i'd know!- similar was a bit like sniffing poppers x 1000= 0-brain cells lol

 

[MrBomDiggitty]

im with abnorml on this one. i just got done growing something in soil that did the exact same thing to the leaves because of overwatering

 

[Ms_Weekend]

less water, MORE FOOD, co2 only for bloom...why waste it?

 

[Moneygrowonweed]

Wow ppm over kill i did that once before i got a ppm meter the ppm meter is a life saver well worth a hundred bucks and help me double my yields. I don't recommend over 1600ppm ever unless room temps are a bit high like in the high 80s but never above 2000ppm. Some say in life more is better but that does not apply with our girls over kill will only cost us. late

 

[bali_man]

Hey all, Thanks for the replies, I'm actually quite surprised that the consensus is co2 concentration. I've had it at over 2000ppm for many runs, with only positive effects. I would disable the co2 entirely right now, since they're not doing that great, however it's rather complicated and already being controlled by a env controller. I personally think that the 1500-1600 ppm rule of thumb is just an efficiency factor. After 1600 ppm the increase in growth rate is minimal, where as from a baseline of 500 to 1600 ppm makes huge increases. I'll emphasize again, I've been running over 2000ppm from rooting cutting all the way through harvest.

I'm beginning to think that some members are right regarding the ppm of the feed. I've kept it that low simply because they are getting watered RTW, and I didn't want to stress them.
I'm going to post some more pictures that might help. I've noticed myself that there are a lot of deficiency symptoms and I know that they are getting proper npk-mg,ca,fe, ratios.

I appreciate the input, but can we look at the problem leaving the co2 out of the equation for now.

I know some are also saying over watering. But for weeks now I'm painstakingly doing hand watering applications to make sure nothing gets too much or too little. I'll snap a picture of some root action once the lights turn back on.

 

[abnorml]

Do you always grow in coco? How often are you watering? You're sure the only thing you did different is nuke the coco? Are all of your cuttings the same or are there different strains. Is every single one suffering the same symtoms?