molasses got u down?

[dmt]

after reading a couple posts concerning my fellow hydro growers, i thought id share my sugar tips with everyone.

i lost a crop to blackstrap molasses last year tetsing it to carboload.

these are my conclusions for all carbo boosters in all hydropnic set ups.

when plants first trigger into flowering they slow down for a bit for hormonal transition into reproduction. this is the suggested time to start carbolaoding by companies and i dont think they"ve ever done any r/d in this area hydropincally. this will result in no sugar uptake becuase of the bloom transition and you are left with fermanting, gunky funky res and rotting roots covered in the funky gunk too.

the solution came to me this year as ive been busy building and not growing so here it is: add your favorite powder or liquid sugar at 1/16 strength every 2 daysfor veg and/or flower week 1, 1/8 every 2 days week 2, 1/4 strength every 2 days week 3, 1/3 strength week 4 then up to 1/2 strength every 2 days from then out subject to grow spaces demands.

my observations have been super clean res and lines=awesome roots, way efin sweeter, stickier buds and increase in yield and smell tatse in the final product(especially chem only grows).

the reason is you can actually feed plants up to 4 times more sugar then recommended by the manufacturer over the crop cycle versus dumping it all in once each week. which will ruin your up to then masterpiece.

the numbers ive put forth are just a simple model. i just add 1/4 strength every 2 days the whole cycle in flower, but its due to the fact i have monster root masses and grow heavy trees.

im sure with a little caution and a couple grows you will be able to grow chem weed(or organic of course) that will have the smell and taste of cherished organic kind.

if chem growers add 20-30% organic nutes and this sugar routine, you can trick even the most seasoned organic heads.

im trying a 80% organic recipe as we speak. i lost 2 crops to a 100% organic hydro grow after 4 very successful 20% organic hydro runs and now finally realise that it was the sugar that took the grow on its first step on its fate to the root rot.

im very excited now because i started organic but ditched most of my recipe when i graduated to hydroponics. now i maybe ready to convert to almost 100% organic hydro which i wanted from the get go.

anymore info on the topic is much appreciated,

il post the results in about 10 weeks. d

 

[OjoRojo420]

Very good information that I'll take to heart!

Thanks

 

[Think Green]

That's a lot of info. I would imagine you would want to document more than just the results at the end of 10 weeks. Like how things have differed with the formula for the whole bloom phase. Maybe even a control group.JMHO Anyways, I'd like to see some pic's!

 

[freeride high]

ive heard that sugar makes it sweeter and also heard it doesnt do anything except make your res stink.
i figured it wasnt worth it on my last run, now im wondering otherwise.

 

[dmt]

^^^^^for 7 years ive grown hydro and never once did it occur to me that the sugar was the prob till i did the control dwc grows with an carboload vs blackstrap. niw i think i can even add organic cane sugaer crystalline with equal if not superior results. i only finished the last half of my last crop and its not dialed so i cant say for certain. but the sweet aroma was triple what it was on my last 7 years, with all my fave strains.

i will share fotos forsure. it will take a while as im taking cuts tomorow for my next batch.

see, i do nft always in tables or buckets, and i always thought it was the organic nutes rotting roots.

to me, the cleaner the set up, the godlier the plants. and with smaller plants i would notice a build up on the roots never thinking twice. i did it in the flush phase to and they exploded the last 2 weeks.

ive only put it all together now that too much suager means major headaches to major failure if not less then optimal numbers.

my plants efin loved the mini doses, and bigger they go tje more they could take, pretty tricky eh, haha

i will do a better documentation as my last try was half ass and tried it on a whim.

since my failures 7 years ago, irealised plant size had so much to do with sugar uptake, and would keep them to a minimum for the first 2 weeks to avoid the sugar goo.

everything makes sense to me now and my stressed 25% organic crop tatsed like eating sugar, leaving the sweetest tatse on the lips for half an hour after smoking, making you just wanna smoke and smoke and smoke. like 100%organic kind.

i will be following up becuase i have 2 friends on it and 4 other spaces on the program.

im so stoked to go back to organic growing win or lose, d

 

[dmt]

they say plants store sugar when they dont need it, like us, the buds had not as much shrink either upon curing becuase i believe all the 3 times sugar i put in the res(in incramints) was immediatly sucked in and stored in the swelling calyxes.d

 

[Biggy]

Can you clarify your thoughts on when you can start adding carbs?

 

[mpd]

dmt - is this not anecdotal at this point? How many grows on those recommendations? Different shakes for different bakes? Do strain genetics have some play in this?

I'm not here to bust your balls. I have just started Russian Roulette from seed and this will be an issue for me to consider in a few weeks, so I want to get the inside skinny. Excellent presentation now let's get it to brass tacks. I'm looking at this for coco coir so I will be hand feeding this into my babies and looking for results.

 

[dmt]

this explaination is for hydroculture with no mediums just roots. in soil or coco, plants hve 3-7 days to uptake the sugar that was fed. in hydro, dumping it in all a once is extremely detrimental for smaller root masses and big ones alike. if your coco grow is recirculating, then it would apply.

ive documented what happens in day 1-5 of flowering. day , build up starts on roots and res and lnes. days 2-3 roots suffocate allowing harmful bacteria to decay the dieing matter by day 5, all the roots are rotting, the res is full o gross dead roots, gunk and funk day 5 all roots must e removed, drip lnes replaced do to clogging and a new res filled. or, just start all over agian becuase your yield wil be half its potential from this sress.

i notice that hydrosetps do not even realise the sugar doses a smaller portions over the week, becuase they can take what they are given even more every week to be taken up.


if you are hand feeding,at feed twice a week, cut the weekly sugar dose into 2, instead of full every feed. d

 

[mpd]

Most excellent. I'll give it a whirl and be sure to post my results. I've been working with this strain for a couple of years now so I have a baseline to go with and then we will see. Obviously I will have to establish some baselines in the coco coir and then go from there. I've got the time so it should be interesting. I'm starting from seed again and looking for the ideal queen of the box and then add select genetics from there. This is shaping up to be an excellent project...

 

[Cat Jockey]

You seem committed to the cause. Kudos to you. Although I don't do organics, I hope you stick with this, especially since you have enlisted other growers and gorw ops you have an opportunity to do some learning and educate the rest of us.

Keep it up and keep us updated.

 

[bendoslendo]

I was under the impression that plants could not uptake sugars through their roots? I thought the sugar only fed the beneficial flora in the root system. I'm pretty sure plants create all the sugars/starches they can use themselves. Could you clarify this for me?

 

[Mr.Bigbud]

Hi DMT,
great thread for me as I have just started using carboload for the first time. I'm 3 weeks into flower with my power plant, growing on NFT. I haven't noticed any sticky build up, but I've been a bit careful with my dosing (about half the dose stated on the packet). I have noticed though that the plants are looking ahead of the game compared to the last batch of cuts I flowered, the buds are larger by a long way! Am I right in thinking this is because carboload has xylose in it, as this is a sugar that plants produce? I've heard of people using mollasses in NFT, but I think the sugars in black strap are not available to the plant, just to the beneficial bacteria in the rootzone, which makes no difference in NFT using rockwool.

 

[dmt]

^^^^^^2 great posts. i only used carbolaod and 2 times blackstrap. with both products i notice stunted root growth because there was too much at 1 time for the smaller guys. in the begiining i went as far as adding no sugar for the first 2 weeks. thats just plain over acting on my behalf.

plants do suck in sugars, if its dissolved on the water. or else after 8 weeks of flowering my rockwool would be 1 solid sugar cube haha

my model is just a model, but i have 2 other friends doing it and they are saying less if no more slime anywhere, and jumps in vogur becuase of the cleanliness and in sugar uptake(less is more). i remember growing organically in soil and never using sugars when i was an indoor newb, and the herb i grow now thats mostly chem, its way sweeter in the room and the final product cured.

advanced nutrients sugar is complex and simple carbs that suit resin producing annuals to a T. im not a sciuentist but have 15 years indoor and outdoor experience, and the sweetest and wieght the sugar adds is noticeable.

standard blcckstrap molasses is highly respected for it iron, calcium and magnesium i believe, and its weight,aroma and taste. though it may or may not be organic it is natural and a fave for gorwers worldwide.

i know 40 years vets that still add icing sugar to there grows for yield and smell/taste,

this is my data, experential. if plants have enough sugar from light, then every ounce of sugar potentially obsorbed by the roots will be stored in the precious fruit.

feed moms at 1/4 strength and get more vigorus cuts becuase all the lil guys have until they callus is sugar storage to keep em going. d

 

[theherbster]

I was under the impression that plants could not uptake sugars through their roots? I thought the sugar only fed the beneficial flora in the root system. I'm pretty sure plants create all the sugars/starches they can use themselves. Could you clarify this for me?

Yes, you are correct, plants cannot absorb sugar. I have read several otherwise completely reputable sources like Jorge Cervantes even talk about sugar as a "secret" ingredient for putting on extra weight, but it is still a complete misunderstanding propogated by some in the nutrient sales business.

Not all additives to water can be absorbed by a plant, many molecules are simply too big to enter the root. So how can some nutrient manufacturers claim that sugar feeds a plant? Sugar feeds beneficial microbes, that in turn break down organic matter and make it more available as NPK (not the sugar, the organic matter) thus the plant gets more nutrients, therefore SUGAR increases the weight in plants! See? Very clever.

In fact, the process is too slow to happen for an indoor potted or hydro plant. So the sugar never really works. However, too much sugar overfeeds the beneficial bacteria AND the harmful bacteria (root rot) thus harming the plant.

So why do you see better results? You're just getting better and giving credit (and cash) to the nutrients.

 

[dmt]

^^^^^nice one, ive always heard this or the latter. okay, i have a room with 2 reses in it. strating in 8 weeks lets see i will stick to my new (snake oil) recipe hahahahaha, and the other res will be kept sugar free.

i definitly agree with the harming part for sure.

one thing that is undeniable though, and i respect both trains of thought, but why is it that when you add sugar to a dwc with little to no roots you get gross gunky funky, and when they have big montserous roots, no sign of gunky funky? my experiments and abservations and feed back all have disapperaing gunk when the plants are big vs small??????

 

[DIYer]

hmmm,.. is it cuz im high as hell right now and suffering from paralysis by analysis, or do we really have two very good lines of thinking tween dmt and theherbster. I hate it when either happens, lol ..and im not much for 'grandma's old secret' anything to be honest, give me science of give me peace and quiet i say, lol
So i think "CAN adding sugar really help or not" is the question we gotta get out of the way before we test how to best use it. Other wise we're potentially just wasting our time, and worse yet potentially lying to ourselves.

I don't know the answer but id love to know for sure.

 

[DIYer]

why is it that when you add sugar to a dwc with little to no roots you get gross gunky funky, and when they have big montserous roots, no sign of gunky funky? my experiments and abservations and feed back all have disapperaing gunk when the plants are big vs small??????

Just a "observation",.. not that im trying to kill the sugar idea or anything,.. god knows id love a cheap way like that to be super beneficial and take my home grown to the next level,.. but maybe its as simple as big plants (with a lot more root surface area converse to small plants) can just handle the condition of having sugar in the res better then small plants can? Does no "gross gunky funky" really mean they ate it up, or did they just have more root surface area to hide it on? I mean it is harder to kill a tree then a sapling right? I recon you could substitute sugar with motor oil and get the same scientific outcome, 'bigger plants handled a qt better then smaller ones', lol
Bottom line can they really drink sugar up through there roots is the million dollar question. And if not does it help in some alternative way like via the good microbes or something? I have no idea but i think these are the question we need to answer.

 

[Tirs]

Guys people have been growing plants for a long time before us with much more money invested to fund studies. Just look up some papers and you will see that roots clearly can uptake simple sugar molecules.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l1w3618057525k44/

 

[Retardo Motabon]

Seems the carbs help but man, so many people seem to apply it like the plant wants to eat Lucky Charms or something!
I regularly see people using molasses at a tblsp per gallon and offering it as good advice to others. SHiz that tblsp is 300-400ppms in a gallon. Poor plants are going to get cavities from those doses!
I often notice with carb loaded plants that the buds are more dense, but they dont burn as well or smoke as well. I use molasses for my first flush as I'm knocking down to zero nutes but avoid sugars after that. Too much and it lowers the bud quality imo.
RM