earth juice ph up & down vs general hydroponics up & down

[bluntt]

Well,Not a whole lot on earth juice ph up & down.seems the gh ph up & down will not my bring my ph value up on my organic solution just wondering what people uses for organic solution,I'm assuming not general hydroponic.I know and everyone knows that lime works as buffer in the soil,but what if you dont have lime in your soil what do you do.

 

[BurnOne]

I know and everyone knows that lime works as buffer in the soil,but what if you dont have lime in your soil what do you do.

You fail!

Dolomite buffers nothing. It adjusts pH but its main use is to supply calcium and magnesium.
Humates buffer the pH of organic nutes so the plant will take them up.
If you don't follow the instructions you will have problems, so let me tell you now so you won't have to ask when your plants start suffering...

Follow the recipes!

Burn1

 

[bluntt]

You fail!

Dolomite buffers nothing. It adjusts pH but its main use is to supply calcium and magnesium.
Humates buffer the pH of organic nutes so the plant will take them up.
If you don't follow the instructions you will have problems, so let me tell you now so you won't have to ask when your plants start suffering...

Follow the recipes!

Burn1

No! you fail. lime is a soil buffer and yes it mainly for cal/mag but also it controls your ph in your soil. Buffer solutions are used as a means of keeping pH at a nearly constant value in a wide variety of chemical applications. and your wrong about humates. humic acid helpl for better nutrients intakes.You still didnt answer the question about what you are using to bring the ph of organic solution instead i get a dump comment.if i'm wrong correct me,get me up to par thats why I'm on this site.what kind of moderator are you

 

[Centrum]

 

[Chesticles]

chelate

 

[maryjohn]

I think he's the kind of moderator who sees questions like this one over and over. Sounds like you come from conventional NPK gardening. Ok, that's like making a stir fry. Organic soil is more like baking. You just preheat the oven, follow the recipe EXACTLY, and you put it in and wait. There is no guessing, schedules, ppm, pH, or any other readings required.

 

[BurnOne]

what kind of moderator are you

I'm a GRUMPY Moderator. It says so right over there. <<<
I'm grumpy because I write this stuff hundreds of times and people refuse to read before posting a question. It makes me feel like you think my time and hard work are worthless and you have some kind of right to pop in here, ask a question that has already been answered a dozen times this month and tell me I fail!
You're the genius who didn't know the answer and I'm the one who has been teaching this stuff for years.
There, I feel better now.
Let me post this again...

Organic pH issues

I hear a lot of people asking or talking about the pH of their organic soil mix or organic nute solution and how they might correct or adjust it. pH in organics is not an issue like it is in synthetic growing.
The best place to settle the pH issues in organics is within the grow medium. A medium rich in humates (humus) is the place to start. Humates work to "buffer" the pH of organic mediums and the nutes you pour (or mix) into it.
Humates come from compost, worm castings and bottled humus. If you use a peat based medum, use dolomite lime to raise the pH of the acidic peat. Dolomite should be used in any soil or soiless medium to provide magnesium and calcium. But since we are talking about pH here, I'll mention dolomite lime's pH correction benefits.
A medium of coir has a pH near neutral (or 7.0). But humates are still neded to allow uptake of organic nutrients that are outside a near neutral pH range.
With an active medium rich in humates you can pour in nutes like Pure Blend Pro, Earth Juice and guano teas way outside the optimum pH range without worry. The humus will allow the nutes to be taken up through the roots, even at such an extreme pH reading.
So throw those pH meters away folks and enjoy the ease and safety of organic gardening.

Burn1

 

[somebody041]

just want to share my own experiences.

i transplant rooted clones into straight LC's mix with peat and worm castings. generally after transplant, the clones go through a trial period where they all struggle but some grow faster than others. the leaves exhibit signs of PH problems. as the plants grow bigger they grow much more vigorous and healthy but still do exhibit minor ph problems even now and again. my tap water has a PH of 8.5-9.

i picked up some earth juice ph down to lower the water ph a little bit. never a specific targeted ph, just down in the 6-7 range. since doing that my freshly transplanted clones have had a much easier time adjusting. there are less ph problems and less nutrient deficiency problems as a result of the ph lockout.

i wish that i didn't have to worry about ph because i do believe the humates can cover ph problems but for those like me who have extreme ph problems then i have found using some ph adjusters has helped.


again this is just my own experiences

 

[maryjohn]

Somebody, I'm not raggin' on you, but: has anyone else noticed that only people with pH testing equipment ever seem to have pH problems with organics? My current clones look terrible, because they took a month to grow roots. But since going into LC mix, all the new growth is beautiful. My water is near neutral though, so i guess that doesn't count. Not that a pH of 9 is all that far from 7.

What I've noticed about soil in containers is that the bigger the container, the better things work. Maybe pH problems can still occur with organics if the container is not of sufficient size to become a fully functioning system? Perhaps we need to compensate for the smaller containers by increasing the EWC content, thus increasing humates? Given the increased surface area to volume ratio of the smaller containers, water retention may be less of an issue.

I would say in any case, that if the soil biology is working, the pH problems can't happen. I have trouble believing the only way to get soil to take care of MJ is to manipulate the pH of every watering. There must be an easier way.

 

[BurnOne]

has anyone else noticed that only people with pH testing equipment ever seem to have pH problems with organics?

 

[maryjohn]

some things to consider before pH: perhaps anyone want to help me complete this list?

things to check for before pH'ing your water:

Chloramine, chlorine
Soil getting too dry too often, reducing or disabling the microherd
insufficient humates
ridiculously excessive salts in the water
soil not mature enough
root binding
did not follow the directions
strain specific problems
too much iron
too much molybdenum
temps
overwatering

 

[spiral]

Hey bluntt, if you dont have lime in your soil add organic matter, like compost or earthworm castings theyll take care of you. Never used GH ph up or down. However back before I fully got into making ewc/compost teas I used to use the EJ ph up and down products. EJ ph down is citric acid if I remember correctly and works well Id add a very tiny amount to my water. Cant give you an exact measurement it was like crumbs.Ive had my bottle of ph down for about 8 years and still have not used a quarter of it,and thats for god only knows how many gallons of water. The ph up is potassium something I think. That product was not so good would have to add 1/4 tsp. + per gallon to get the ph just right. Now I just add organic matter to the soil and make teas no more testing this and that tryin to chase ph, and I thank Burnone for that with his great posts. Good luck.

 

[psycho pirate]

if you are using organic nutes just buy some humic acid and mix you own solution... it's real cheap 1lb. for $12 dollars plus free shipping on Ebay also Fulvic Acid works well... I use them both

 

[Chesticles]

not trying to start anything but a pH of 9 and 7 are very different, unless 100X more basic isn't that big a difference to you, not disagreeing w/ what you're saying in general but i do think till someone gets the hang of creating and maintaing a living soil pHing could help, and i don't see how it could hurt

 

[maryjohn]

100X more basic than 7 is not that big a difference to me, no.

knowing the pH of some things can come in handy, but I've observed it's handier for people not to know, and just get good soil going. I haven't taken out the kit in a long time.

 

[Chesticles]

all i'm saying is, you come off like a guy telling someone an eraser is useless just trust your hand and pencil, or seat belts aren't needed everyone just needs to drive safely, yes pHing isn't needed if you know what you're doing but not everyone does

this is as far as i'm taking this as i know you like to argue

 

[maryjohn]

yes pHing isn't needed if you know what you're doing but not everyone does

Perhaps you misunderstand the point I tried to make? Knowing the pH of things is more likely to lead to harm, rather than good, and isn't really necessary as long as your soil is functioning. Which is not hard to do, you just mix up the right ingredients and water it right, and it's done.

If you went around with your pH pen and tested everyone's water that has good grows, you might be shocked. Soil can handle it, at least the soil most of us are talking about. Unless all the other "non pH" people I've interacted with on this board all have the same conditions as me... It would be interesting to find out!

 

[somebody041]

Somebody, I'm not raggin' on you, but: has anyone else noticed that only people with pH testing equipment ever seem to have pH problems with organics? My current clones look terrible, because they took a month to grow roots. But since going into LC mix, all the new growth is beautiful. My water is near neutral though, so i guess that doesn't count. Not that a pH of 9 is all that far from 7.

i grew for over a year with no ph checking equipment. i WANTED to rely on the microherd and the humates to take care of my problems. i defended my methods against others who kept telling me to check my ph and i wouldn't have problems. i convinced fellow organic growers to not ph their teas and they thanked me when they noticed better growth as a result of it. believe me, checking ph is the last thing i want to do. it's a pain in the ass.

but i could not argue with the facts that my plants always had a tough time once initially transplanted. they all exhibit signs of unhealthy plants: purpling stems, slow growth, rust spots, yellowing and dying of leaves, purpling of leaves, etc. i only recently purchased a ph test kit and ph down. and only recently has growth been much better. a ph of 9 is vastly different than a ph of 7, as ph is measured on a logarithmic scale. meaning the difference of 7.1 and 7.2 is 10x

in my opinion saying "only people with ph testing equipment have ph problems" seems kinda useless. i never had ph testing equipment and i had ph problems. i understand that there are people on here that do not check their ph and still get great results. i know people will write that sometimes the teas they brew have very low ph's and the plants respond to them just fine.

but

what is their initial ph? when they water with regular water i'll bet their ph is much more in line with where it should be.

in my case, with a ph of 8.5-9, a freshly transplanted clone getting just plain water with the occasional tea puts stress on the plant. that's a fact. and regardless of if i check the ph or not the fact is that the clone is getting bombarded with high ph water and it takes a little bit of time for the plant to adjust and for the microherd to start to develope. i should note for the record that i mix LC's #1 mix and wet it right before i transplant clones into it. maybe would have better luck if i made a batch a week or two earlier and let the microlife built. even though i'm told that's not necessary for plain LC's mix.


i'm not trying to tell anyone to do anything any other way than burn1 advocates. he's the expert and i don't want anyone thinking that i'm saying he's wrong. hell most of my knowledge comes from his writings.

all i'm saying is that IN MY PERSONAL SITUATION, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T WANT TO CHECK THE PH, I GET MUCH BETTER GROWTH WHEN I DO.

 

[maryjohn]

well then, you found the exception that proves the rule: a new clone, with almost no contact with the very thing that buffers the water. Clones need extra care. That's how it is.

You could condition your water as you do or water clones with R/O or rain water. I use R/O, since I keep it around for my carnivorous plants.

 

[psycho pirate]

yeah but 7 is neutral and 9 is very alkaline... if your pH was 7 it would be much easier to correct than if it was 9... if your soil pH was 9 your plants would probably be dead