500 watt Scrog Grow -Blackjack-

[Scrogerman]

I'm off to work just now but when i get back i'm gonna check out the nute profile of GH or Lucas 5/10 or 6/9 against the grow formula you are using from GH, i think you posted the link to it earlier in the thread. Im curious to see the ratio's of K and Mg even the N too, i'll look at the lot for that too.be very interesting to see the difference buddy.
Till later. Peace,,...........scroger'
What ratio's are you using the G,M,B again?12.5,7.5,2.5

 

[SkuNkWorX]

no scroger, I diddnt...it was just 5.5 ph H2O... I have a bottle of GH Flora clean....I could put the plants one by one in an empty bucket and flush the grow medium and hydroton with a solution of that....it would probably be taken in by the roots as well..maybe loosen up some excess salts...I dont really want to put it in my tank because i dont have the time to do a full flush again rite now....do you think this would help? ill wait for a reply....also im working on the pics....Are you mostly seeing the problem with the first plant in the line of pics?
Peace, Skunk

 

[FreezerBoy]

Hey Skunk, got your PM. Next time, shoot me a link. Speed read through so I may have missed some things but my first thoughts are these:

That much Rockwool is a bad idea in DWC. The 1" starters are all you need. The large blocks need to be flooded and drained regularly which doesn't happen in this system and things can build up in the cube throwing things out of whack.

I think an EC of 0.6 was too weak in the earlier stages. My tap is 0.5 all by itself. I run a stronger solution than 0.6 for unrooted clones and unsprouted seeds.

If you want to know where the problems are coming from, lose everything except FloraMicro and FloraBloom (the FloraGro is useless and you're better off without it) With such a low EC to begin with EC is being chewed up by additives that may be depriving plants of trace elements in the micro and bloom formulas. Removing the low mag Gro will require you to make up the EC difference with higher mag Bloom which may remove your mag problem altogether. Did mine, anyway.

Personally I swing pH between 5.5-6.0

I think you're playing with too much all at once. Start with M&B and once things are going well, add ONE extra thing and see what happens. When you know it's OK add ONE more thing and wait again.

Nute manufacturers aren't interested in your plants health as much as they are interested in taking your money. Their schedules are designed to needlessly cram as much down your plant as possible without it bursting into flame. The more you needlessly waste, the more you needlessly buy. You simply don't need everything on the schedule. M&B with pH Down are all you need.

Oh, and my 3rd grade teacher says, "Paragraphs are your friend." Try them out sometime

Break a stem.

 

[Kindman69]

Skunk, here I read through the whole thread getting ready for my 'big input' only to find that Freezer Boy said it better than I ever could have. Tip of the hat to Freezer and Scrogerman!

Here is a pic of mine at 2 weeks flower. Look in the bottom left corner and you see what is going on with yours. You will also notice on my pic the overall mg deficiency. Mind you I already add 5ml/g Cal-Mag to my ro water and it is not enough.
I noticed this problem early and should have foliage feed right away (i.e. magic green etc.) but like an idiot I just watched it for a week before foliage feeding them. They have improved a lot, but I was not able to outgrow the problem, they were getting too big, had to flip.
Once flower onset starts I don't foliage feed anymore.



My advice to you, fix the problem before you flower them. Foliage feeding works fast, while you can address the underlying issues. My plants looked light like yours (which is not bad by the way), they darkened up a bit, but I am at 1.8 EC at this point (includes some additives). Broaden your drip around the rockwool if you can, so they don't remain completely water logged all the time. I use 'rapid rooter plugs' for that reason.

At least blackjacks seem to flower rather well, even with some minor issues.

This is what they look like now:

You can see, they are flowering well, but have not outgrown the early problems

Kind

 

[SkuNkWorX]

so should i pick up some cal-mag asap tomorrow or what? I just want to get this corrected as soon as possible...before i end up with bigger problems! so do we all agree this is a deficiency going on? im about to post new pics in a bit...working on them now

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Skunk i got a link you should read, i'll post it underneath. After reading this myself i'm gonna foliar this stuff in future, at the correct growth phase times like it mentions in the thread below. Interesting read.
It would be pretty simple to flush your pots me thinks even though i may be wrong. but couldent you just unplug your outlet and flush your pot through to waste. if not and its a lot of hassle never mind just a thought. When you flush you should try using a very diluted nute solution say 200/300 PPM's. this will provide for a much better flush and the best way to describe what happens is any salts in your medium are more attracted to a weak solution which works a bit like a magnet and helps purge your medium of any accumilation of salts. Much more affective than plain old h2o' buddy.!
Interesting read this one: I'll pm it to you someone removed the link ah! WHY??
Peace'.....Scrog'

Ps Hey FB you tap is way out of whack ah! What you are saying about the M&B is what i was fearing with this formula all along, but we have disscussed this too and Skunk has pointed out that many growers use the 3 and get great results. But personally i would do the M&B but thats jusrt me! Peace bro'

Edit- The 4" cubes you are running in your netpots buddy are a little excessive, but dont worrie, just flush ya pots once every 2 wks an you'll be just fine NP'
"Overall good advise you guys"!!

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey FB'
Whats your take on the fact Skunks Tap reading is 190ppms, makes it hard right! How would you go about adding this to the formula for 0/6/9 or taking it away rather(whatever ppms that is). What would be your advice on this issue as the Lucas is based on RO water is it not?

This link may help or confuse further, either is possible!!
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

 

[Scrogerman]

Here's the important bit:

Recommended Profile Target
Where the 100N-100P-200K-60Mg target profile relates to General Hydroponics Flora Series 3 part liquid fertilizer products, the same profile can be mixed without using any of the GH Grow component. If one carefully reads the labels, he'll find the Micro component actually contains more N than the Grow, and the Grow component contains nothing else that isn't already contained in the Micro and Bloom components. Substituting a little more of the Micro component to make up for the missing Grow precludes the use of the Grow component altogether.

Deviations from a given target are to be expected when using any premixed fertilizer, even 3 part products, due to the pre-determined ratio between elements contained in each part. More often than not, increasing the content of one element to match its target perfectly causes other elements to move off-target. Given cannabis' apparent immunity to a wide range of profiles, small compromises from the target are of no consequence, but often annoying. The profile arrived at during the project used just the Micro and Bloom GH Flora components at a convenient 1:2 usage rate, though any comparable fertilizer product(s) could be used to reproduce the profile. It translates into the following formula...

N-P-K-Mg ppm ml/US Gallon GH Flora Est [email protected] Est Cost/ResGal
122-99-171-68 7.5M-15B-0G 1251 $0.15

This formula has proven itself to be one that can be used for all stages of growth, under HID lighting of various intensities, and when using a variety of hydroponic systems with a reasonably good quality source water. What is most notable, however, is in the interest of efficiency, low maintenance, ease of use, fewer products to purchase, equally high yields and equally healthy plants. For expedience, that GH formula was rounded to 8M-16B-0G, which has become widely known in Internet cannabis circles as the Lucas formula.

 

[Scrogerman]

So in summary it would be 5/10 or 6/9 for veg & the 8/16 for bloom. does Skunk need to take away anything from these formule to account for his tap ppm's?
Even though it does say the 8/16 ratio can be used for the whole grow cycle!

 

[FreezerBoy]

Hey FB'
Whats your take on the fact Skunks Tap reading is 190ppms, makes it hard right!

My tap has an EC of 0.5 (250-384 ppm). I may try the hardwater formula next time around but, haven't used it in the past.

I "invented" the Lucas formula some 12-14 years before I heard of Lucas. I believe he saw the same thing I did with the Rosenthal/Frank NPK charts. The proportions could not be approximated with the Gro bottle included but, without the Gro, you could get darn close.

The only thing Gro had that seemed important was magnesium and I was adding epsom salts at the time so, Gro was providing nothing I needed, at least in usable amounts.

As a one time event it's hardly a scientific experiment but, I always waited to see signs of Mag deficiency before adding Epsom Salts. Once I stopped using Gro, I never saw a mag deficiency again. But, I was stumbling in the dark back then and there may have been other factors that escaped me then and now.

The weak solution flush sounds interesting. I was going the blunt force trauma route, just force the stuff out. Letting chemistry do some of the work sounds like a real plan.

 

[SkuNkWorX]

OK, so as soon as i can get this figured all the way out so i can understand what im doing ill switch to not using grow.... so what did we decide on the deficiency issue...do i need to pick up some cal-mag and folier feed?

Hey scroger...if i missed it im sorry, did you find a way to figure a starting point as far as how many ml's per gallon i would add of micro and bloom if im leaving grow out? If we can be sure of what i need to do, ill drain what i can out of my tank tonight and flush the buckets well....I did flush the two plants that are worst off 1 &2. OH BTW, did you find the pics you wanted in the new photo album? eventually ill delete those, or most...they were just to give a better idea whats going on...so if you saw them, what did you think?
well Thanks for digging up the info and helping me the best you can...scroger, Freezer as well as everyone else!
............................................Peace, Skunk.....................................

 

[Scrogerman]

I think it wouldent hurt to foliar with a cal-mag app anyway(use a super chleated form), imo within a week of switching to the stated M&B formula you'll be just fine anyway. You'll then be giving a more suitable K & Mg ratio in your mixes. to me this is the issue here K & Mg being i n too small amounts in your current formula.
I aint got the ratio's of of the two formulae for K and Mg written down yet, as soon as im finished reading i'll post it up. Unless someone beats me to it -FB?
In a bit Skunk.................Peace.......................Scroger'

 

[Scrogerman]

Hey Freezerboy you use this stuff, share a little advise for skunk buddy-Please!
Peace........Scroger!!
Its only the Micro that comes in Hard or soft water formulas is it not?

 

[FreezerBoy]

I believe the Micro is the only one in Hardwater formulation.

Skunk, While you can use EC to match other peoples numbers, I submit it's better to use it as a Universal Translator that speaks plant.

Choose a proportion suitable to the stage you're in (1:1, 2:1, 1:2) Start with a half tsp (2.5 ml) as the base unit. Mix up the formula, record EC, fill res, chart EC and pH every day. There's your answer. Not an approximation or a guess, an EXACT answer that refers to your one garden alone in all the universe.

The answer will be Papa Bear, Momma Bear or Baby Bear. For Mom and Pop, adjust accordingly. If it says Baby Bear, DON'T BELIEVE IT! You WANT a small pH swing as no one pH number allows absorption of all nutes. If pH swings, EC goes the other way, it's a package deal.

I feed barely too rich with a pH of 6. Over two weeks, Water level drops about 4 gal, EC climbs 0.1-0.2, pH drops to 5.5-5.6 and 4 gal of straight tap water brings me back to my starting numbers. Several weeks to a couple of months later, signs of stress will indicate the time to dump the res for a new batch.

 

[Scrogerman]

Although i'd like to thank you FB, some of what you have said could be a little confusing for a novice. Pappa Momma Bear What?!!!lol
Please dont take offence as i mean none!
So in summary buddy you are saying to mix either 1:1 thats M & B the same for the 2:1 & 1:2, you are talking M&B i will presume. Mix formula-to what? record EC to what? what should it be for a young plant in veg? Chart EC- 'OK, i get you need to track this on a daily basis to see what the plants are eating etc. again the same goes for charting PH, this will give you a good idea of what is going on in solution terms!
I still dont see how this info gives a nube' the exact anwsers they are looking for dude, or the way you have put it may be a little confusing, could you simplify the numbers please buddy. and give a ball park EC for the mixed formula for M&B at this young veg stage for the plants.
On your add backs with straight tap, you are saying that the EC climbs a couple of .1's or .2's/Points,over 2 wks and when you add back straight tap(couple of gal) this takes you back to ph 6 and your starting EC point. Is this correct FB.

So after all that being sussed out & said. What is your recommended starting PPM & EC for M & B formula in this stage of veg Buddy??? And do you think that Skunks starting tap ppm matters in this equasion??? I'm trying to help Skunk out here and dont use GH nutes myself & im just trying to simplify things for him ok buddy.
Thanks in Advance for your time dude.

'Peace & Much Respect...............................Scroger'

Ps-Sorry if i didnt quite get your post FB but it is a little confusing and abstract to say the least, i just want basic numbers that you recommend?thats all!

 

[Scrogerman]

M=
B=
Recommended EC/ppm for young veg stage=

Tips=

Thanks FB

 

[FreezerBoy]

Pappa Momma Bear What?!!!lol

Sorry, too cute for my own good. Remember Goldilocks and the 3 Bears? Papa Bear's porridge was too hot, Momma Bears porridge was too cold and Baby Bears porridge was just right. Every batch of nutes will fall into one of those 3 categories: too hot, too cold or just right. Which category will remain unknown until you ask your plants.

My numbers are determined by my plants, in my water, under my lamp, in my cab, in my garage, with my temps and my RH. You and Skunk have none of these conditions.

When you ask for specific numbers, I have to ask, "What did your plant say when you asked her?" If she said EC up-pH down, that's too rich. If she said EC down-pH up, that's too lean. If she says EC flat-pH flat, that's just right for today ONLY! Remember that a small pH swing is good for you and if pH swings so does EC.

I recommend starting with 1/2 tsp (2.5ml) per gallon as your base unit of measurement in a 1:1 or 1:2 proportion depending on veg or flower (2:1 would be an aggressive veg formula that may be unsuitable for small cabs with limited space). Whatever the EC of that solution is gets recorded but, is meaningless without another reading to compare it to. It's the movement that brings meaning to the numbers (which is why lies like PPM and TDS will do)

Some of my plants say 0-3-6 is too strong, some say 0-5-10 is too weak. But, I had to ask them to find out.

 

[Scrogerman]

N-1!

N-1!

Hey Bud,
Thanks for the info and explaining things like this bro-Good Job'
I'm sure Skunk can get a mix on the go with confidance now, if he takes in what you just said, and thanks FB' again for your time'Dude'.
'Peace & Respect'..............................Scroger'

 

[SkuNkWorX]

THANKS FOR ALL OF THE HELP FREEZER AND SCROGER...Its all much appreciated. I believe that this situation may just be about under controll! Time will tell but im already seeing posative results and its only been a day! I cant wait to see what the next couple of days have in store as the plants continue to transition, and i get use to this new program...

Ill get some new pics and stats up this evening
Peace, Skunk

 

[Scrogerman]

'What are friends for Buddy!!!!!

'Your most welcome'-Anytime Bro'!!

Peace..............Scroger