detailed symptoms and pictures!

[aeviaanah]

symptoms:

leaf edges curled upwards (mag def?)
multicolored leafs (pH?)
burned tips (overnute?)
blotches (pH?)
torn leaves (bugs?)

if you look at the first picture you will see the leaves have holes in them. i havent noticed any bugs and i have been looking for a while. they also get treatment for bugs once a week. is there a def or overkill of a certain nutrient that will cause this?

any help will be greatly appreciated.
-aeviaanah

___________

How long has this problem been going on?
10 days

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
No

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
Coco coir

What STRAIN are you growing?
Bubba kush, jack the ripper, super silver haze, bagseed

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
clone

What is the age of your plants?
60 days

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
3 weeks

How tall are the plants?
18 in from

What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
veg

What Technique are you using?
lst - paper wire ties to keep short
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
Coco coir and soil (one plant)

What is the Water temperature?
room temp 65-75

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
White and real fuzzy, no slime. i use mycorrhizae

What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
GH maxigro, cal mag, fish emulsion once in a while, humic acid
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water?
maxi grow- as directed per gallon
cal mag - as directed
fish emulsion - 1 tsp per gallon
humic acid - as directed

How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
every water - 3 to 4 days

How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
i thought feeding and giving nutes was the same thing...please clarify.

If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?

What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
whichever bottle i pick up first. ph down last.

What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using?
not sure/not sure/900-1200ppm tap water is 150 ppm

What is the pH of the "Tank"?
water in is 5.5 - 6 and ph out is 6.0

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? yes just bought and just calibrated both ph pen and ppm reader.

When was your last watering?
Two days ago

What is your water temps?
Room temp (65-75)

When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
Always feed the same. alternating with mycorrihizae every other week

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
never
What size bulb are you using?
400 hps

What is the distance to the canopy?
16"

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
not sure but it is somewhere between 40 and 55

What is the canopy temperature?
65--75

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
65--75

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
No ventilation, door remains open

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
No

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
Not sure

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Tap water

Are you using water from a water softener?
No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
Yes

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
Neem oil once every two weeks, permethrin

Are plant's infected with pest's
Not that i am aware of. I check often

 

[jyme]

looks like a phosphorus deficiency but could be a mn def. what does the rest of the plant look like

 

[aeviaanah]

Super silver haze is hit the hardest

All coco coir plants are affected (bubba kush, super silver haze, bagseed, jack the ripper) Jack the ripper in soil is doing fine. Not sure of it being a phosphorus def. I am still in veg and symptoms dont fit. What are your reasons for thinking it may be phosphorus?

 

[MynameStitch]

Your plants are getting heat stressed from being near the light a little too much, looks kinda of old though.... as for the purple, that is caused by temps being too cool at night time,

Also called color changing strains, keep the temps above 72 if you want. Cooler temps causes slower growth and is slows the amount of food the plants need and you can cause nutrient burn more easily, because they take the nutes in slower.

Also few of the plants inthe picture above are showing deficiencies in calcium it looks like, would have to see a closer up of the plants in question,

The plant that is right above the plants in the bottom of the picture, the leaf edges are yellowish/red

I would also ease the ppms down a bit, they look like it's just a bit too high.

 

[aeviaanah]

plants arent heat stressed...light is 18" away and temps are 65-75. the purple you are seeing is a bad picture. as you can see the reflective foil has a purple tint to it also. just a bad picture. keeping plants above 72 is a good point thanks...

im thinking ph was a problem...and it was causing a lockout of certain nutrients. possibly overdosing of other nutrients. at the moment i am feeding about 600 ppm. 100 of cal mag...and base water is 140. how close would you want me to take a picture? did you see the ones in the beginning of the thread? thanks for your help.

 

[MynameStitch]

I don't mean high heat temps like 90F or anything like that, radiant heat from the bulb heats the surface of the leaf. the leaves cup like that to try to retain the moisture on the plants surface of the leaves, this is due to too much water leaving the plants leaves too quickly. You also do not have ventilation to help disperse the heat even if you keep the door open it still does not get all the heat away in certain areas. Top surface of the leaves can heat up like a parking lot in the sun.


There is only 2 things that cause leaf curl like that, over fed or the light.
now that the damage was done back, because it's in the middle part of the plant from the pictures you posted.

That part is the least of your problems though..... Keep them on what you have now and keep checking to make sure it's not spreading, it will spread from the middle part of the plant and upwards if the amount the plant needs is not being met.

 

[fsttimes81]

I think your RH is probably higher then you think and you temp is to low. No fan blowing on them WHY? High RH will not let the plants transpire IE no nutrient uptake certain nutes will begin to stock pile in your medium(cal, mag, iron, etc) and cause a lock out. Just my worthless .02 cents.... But I have seen that before

 

[aeviaanah]

i see what you are saying but it doesnt hold true to the other plants that are equal in height. radiant heat can still be measured at top of leaf and 70 degrees is not high. i believe it is over feeding. i have cut back on the feeding and i am down to one plant showing stress. overfeeding of any nutrient will do this or do you know of which will?
i have a fan connected to the light that equalizes the heat in the closet the best it can. i have another fan that blows air across canopy and out of the door opening. thanks for helping me figure this out.

 

[BurmeseDragon]

No way is it a calcium deficiency, most hard water has PPM's from calcium...usually calcium and magnesium from lime! The damage to the plant cells is not going to be solved, it's about not spreading it.

I'd get fresh water and cut down on the cal mag, your soil might even have lime in it. To much lime is not good, these plant symptoms get to be real head scratchers and trying to solve it can make it worse!

MAKE SMALL ADJUSTMENTS

The leaf margin curl, is defiantly heat stress...add some silicon for that and back the light up, cool down the light not the ambient temperature.

The yellowing and blotches are from over watering and to much cal mag, it's in your tap water...

The damage doesn't look bad, but your soil is being poisoned with to much lime which is cal mag. It's not a PH buffer at all, it does buff PH but it adds a lot of problems more than ion exchange that it solves.

It takes so much calcium to exchange PH ions, there are chemicals much better for effecting PH....it's mostly calcium but it has a fair amount of magnesium and probably why your plants are so green. Sea Weed is a better source of magnesium than calcium magnesium products, fact is calcium sucks for cannabis!

Cal mag is a bad idea, it took off do to marketing scheme and easily brain washed stoner minds. Calcium is only for outdoor grows, but the PH around here is very rich in limestone...so it doesn't do anything good!

IF I need cal mag a shot, and I mean a shot of tap water works...but plants really don't require very much calcium at all! They don't have friggen skeletons.

 

[jyme]

i will not disagree with stitch and heat stress comes in diferent forms. the new growth looks good. the first pic and thrid is signs of posable heat stress and fsttimes is right about rh. keep us posted and maybe you have it under control

 

[jrosek]

I would say ph problems for sure..... are you checking your run off?

 

[MynameStitch]

i see what you are saying but it doesnt hold true to the other plants that are equal in height. radiant heat can still be measured at top of leaf and 70 degrees is not high.

Like I said, it's not the F that is causing the problem, with you not having fans heat is going to be in hot spots light intensity and 400 watt hps is known for this, it can give out a dry heat like other ones, but from my experience 400's do this a lot and like I said has nothing to do with Fahrenheit temps when I am talking about heat stress, those leaves are trying to protect themselves and keep in the moisture that leaf has so the plant is trying to save that leaf from dying.


i see what you are saying but it doesnt hold true to the other plants that are equal in height. r

This is because you are growing many strains at once and not all strains are equal, sativas have much more tolerance to heat and light intensity than indicas do, so when you grow multiple strains you must keep track of which ones get what dosage since many of the strains may not be able to tolerate the same feeding nutes where the other one in the same system (growing conditions) different strain is hungry and needs more nutes.

THat is just one part of your problem, as for the rest, most people when they grow coco they use strain coco.

If you mix too mediums together one requiring higher pH then the other medium you will have a balance act to follow and I have seen many people have problems with this.

example
If you mix say coco with MG organic you have 2 different mediums that have different pH's
you can have problems with the plants ability to properly uptake nutes, because of there pH difference.

This is why if people mix soil mixtures together they try to keep the same medium pH

say like coco and peat moss

GH maxigro, cal mag, fish emulsion once in a while, humic acid
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water?
maxi grow- as directed per gallon
cal mag - as directed
fish emulsion - 1 tsp per gallon
humic acid - as directed


Another thing that is a problem, your ppm,s are high (1200) for the size of plants,
Your plants are lacking in micro nutrient area, lockout is occuring, you feed that amount every watering is bad, this causes buildup of left over plants do not use and this causes a big problem. You should always alternate water in between feedings. Or you could feed 2 times in a row and then the 3rd time use straight water and give it a very good water to help rinse left over salt buildup.
I would flush your plants out with a lot of water, what size pots are these plants in?

I normally would use 1 gallon of water per gallon size or double that if it's severe.

if I were you I would flush with 1 1/2 gallons of water per gallon size pot.

Nute burn does not cause the kind of leaf curl that is in the picture you posted, that only comes in play when dry heat crisps the leaves.

 

[jyme]

well said i dont know if any one else could have said it so throughly

 

[RicoT]

Indeed. I've just learned quite a bit from that simple, yet thorough response Stitch!

 

[aeviaanah]

im not quite grasping the concept of heat stress. i dont understand how there can be heat without anything showing that the heat is there. can this heat be measured in any way? i know too much light intensity can cause stress, possibly this is what you are refering too? i just havent had this problem in the middle of summer and now it is winter. but as you said it has nothing to do with temps. i guess what i am not grasping is that heat is measured in temp. i currently have a fan blowing over them now...hopefully if heat is the problem it will be fixed. i have two of the same strains one showing this problem and another not showing it. the only difference is soil and coco coir.

i will cut back feeding. what do you say about 700ppm? lots of people are saying when growing in coco to feed every water. are you familiar with coco? i guess coco is closer to hydroponics then to soil. just as you wouldnt run no nutrients in your resevoir. ?? ive just transplanted from 2 gallon pots to 7 gallon pots. pots were root bound. i know this is a large jump but i am going to veg for a week or so more than go to 12/12.

is it ok to mix nutrients? say u mix one nutrient and it is a 10-10-10 and another that is a 5-5-5 is the final product 15-15-15? how do you know when it is good and/or bad to mix?

a friend of mine just gave me a box full of nutrients, plus i have some....which would you use along with the coco and/or soil? (anyone feel free to answer)

veg:
supernatural gro terra 20-20-20
general hydroponics maxigro 10-5-14
age old grow organic 12-6-6
pura vida grow organic 6-4-3
fox farms grow big organic 6-4-4
fish emulsion organic 5-1-1

flower:
supernatural bloom terra 11-31-15
general hydroponics maxibloom 5-15-14
fox farms tiger bloom organic 2-8-4
age old grow dry fruit organic 2-10-20

supplements:
general hydroponics kool bloom 2-45-28
supernatural super boost 10-49-10
fox farms big bloom organic 0.01-0.3-0.7
bio grow 1.8-0.1-6.6
humboldts countrys own snow storm 0-0-3
general hydroponics flora nectar 0-0-1
general hydroponics chi 0.2-0-0.2
grandma enngys humic acid
cal mag 2-0-0
botanicare cal-mag
age old grow mycorrhizae


i know it is a big list...possibly you are familiar with any of these products and how they react with soil/coco?


stitch, i appreciate your detailed posts thankyou.

jrosek, yes i am checking ph runoff and it is around 6.0.

 

[jyme]

well as simple as i can say it heat stress cand be like you in the sun on a 74f day with min, air cirulating like say 0 wind well if you stand there or if you do somthing your gunna sweat well thats wat there doing the temp has nothing much to do with it direct light and suffication them rh plays a role aswell

 

[aeviaanah]

ok i see.. which of these nutrients listed would u use?

 

[lysol]

im not quite grasping the concept of heat stress. i dont understand how there can be heat without anything showing that the heat is there. can this heat be measured in any way?

Stitch gave a fantasic parking lot example. Pretend your HPS is the sun, the leaf is a parking lot on earth. outer space is the air between your lamp and plant. If humans put a themometer in outer space it reads -500 F, but a parking lot picking up radiant heat rays in the form of non visible light, and raditions, can heat the parking lot to 100+ on a cool day easily (ever burn your bare feet walking on it?).

You would need an IR thermometer that measures the absolute temperature of the surface. In my 78F room the buds can heat up to 100F+ under my 600.

You could consider doing what I did and get a high temp cutoff switch. That will save your ass while you figure out your issues.

If you hold your hand halfway between the plant top and the lamp, for like a minute long (since radiant heat is a "build up" not something you can just measure instantly), if you feel any radiant warmth at all, you should consider taking stitch serious. Picture a car out in the hot sun, the heat builds up inside it and gets trapped, its like a solar cooker.

 

[jyme]

in my case i live to use a 15-15-15 with micro nuts added ofcourse there deficencys are rare and in most cases ocure when the ph is to low or to high thats in vegging state then when i switch over to flowering i use a low nitrogen solution like a 5-30-15 but me personly i always keep nitrogen in the mix some like to drop it i just drop it low the plant will not use much of it any way but i like some nitrogen there.in flowering the last two elements are the most used and with out them the buds just wont be all they could have been its quit simple npk is npk but some fertilizers were took from difernt things i use mg and dont advise it for the novice as the nitrogen salts can build up and cause toxicaty just be cause of the form of nitrogen it is but the type of nutreints you use is completly your choice but rember the brand doesnt make the plant grow its the avalabity of the npk that makes the difernce

 

[aeviaanah]

i appreciate everyones help. thanks! has anyone ever tried or grown bubba kush, jack the ripper, or super silver haze?