Coco VS Hydroton in Flood & Drain

[mikeross]

I was set on running 100% Coco in 6" square pots over a 4x8 flood and drain setup with a 100gallon reservoir. Planning to flood every 3 hours and possible once when lights are off. I am still doing research on proper flood intervals.

I have read very mixed reviews of using straight coco in a f&d setup. I have read many members claiming Hydroton is superior in f&d setups. I have also seen many members have amazing harvest using 100% coco... Dongles69 comes to mind.

I recently got a PM claiming that I would be making a big mistake running 100% coco in my F&D setup. I disagree with his statement but figured making a thread with my concerns was worth it to see what the majority think.

So what is everyone's opinion on coco in a f&d setup?

Do you recommend a layer of Hydroton at the bottom of the pots?

Do you think the 6x6x8" pots are sufficient enough for plants that flower less than 65days with probably less than 2 weeks of veg?

I plan to run 16 plants in a 4x4 area so I do have the room for bigger pots. Should I up the pot size to say an 8x8x8?

Any recommendations on flood intervals? The table takes about 5 mins to flood and 7 mins to drain.

I know there are many good brands of Coco but has anyone proven one is better than the other or found 1 brand to be the #1 choice? In my research is seems like any of the name brand Coco product are all equally as good.

thanks for the help guys, much appreciated

 

[YosemiteSam]

Any high end brand of coco seems to work just fine. I use Biobizz (cause my local hydro store carries it) without flushing...no worries.

Flooding twice a day works great although I am going to experiment with more based on info from H3ad's thread.

Pot size/plant count...my opinion the 5.5 inch nursery pots outperform bigger pots even with same number plant counts. Taller pots do not get really wet at the top of the pot and it seems air is not pulled through the medium as well (that is just an observation, it may or may not be a fact). But for sure roots completely fill the pot with the 5.5 inchers where they do not with the 8" tall pots. However, to get better yield you are probably going to want to go with more like 30 plants on a 4x4 tray.

I have added perlite to some pots and have seen no improvement although a few have claimed improvement. For my money 100% coco is the way to go.

Bottom line...both hydroton and coco work and both work well. Go with either and you will be fine.

 

[mikeross]

thanks for the quick reply... very helpful

 

[CuZZn BooBerry]

I use 100% Bcuzz coco(straight from the bag, no rinse needed) w GH nutes, 4x4, flood/drain 3x a day(every 8 hrs) under 1k hps and have had nothing but success. I think you cannot go wrong either way but, IMHO coco is the SHIIIIIT!

 

[whadeezlrg]

what u pulling off of 1k cuzzin? basically same setup except hand watering with the possible upgrade to drip

 

[humboldtsbest]

Just a question here. Why would you not fill your grow space with as many plants as can fit? In a 4X4 you got 48inches by 48inches correct? if you use the 8inch pots, thats 25 plants. Unless of course u are using circle pots and not square. Personally made this mistake, and will never do again. Get as many plants in there as u can with whatever size you decide to use. More plants equals more MJ....

 

[bbing]

100 gal res???

Is there any issues not running to waste, ito recycling nutrient, and diminishing Ca Mg levels?

PH & hardness stability? Amendment sched?

 

[Guest 18340]

If you read through dongle69's thread then their should be no question about whether to use coco and how effective it is.
As for hyrodton VS Coco, you MAY get slightly more growth with hydroton, MAYBE, but their is no down side to F&D'ing with coco.
If you're using coco, then you won't have to flood as often as you would using hyroton, those clay balls don't hold much moisture at all.
Gotta agree bbing, why not drip to waste? Thats how I do and it takes away all the add back headache and ph fluctuation. Well, i'm sure you have good reason.
Stick with a name brand when buying coco, I've used Botanicare, GH's coctek and Sunleaves. I'd use any of them again and am currently using Cocotek.
I too am using those 6x6x8 pots (mine are those white ones) and they are perfect for your veg and flower times. dongle69 used them at first and she uses the even SMALLER 5x5 black pots. ( I think they're 5x5, she says what size in her thread).
As for flood intervals, that a trial/error thing. Once you get set up, it should only take you 1 day to figure out how often to flood.
I say go for it dude, dongle has blazed the way for ya

 

[gmanwho]

Hey mikeross...... Just to chime in here abit...

I've ran coco on drip before for a few runs, and hand watering for about 2 years, and now i run e&f buckets with hydroton. I had great success with coco, and lots of horrible results as well.

Hydroton has been nothing positive other then support issues before roots get established. I have seen what seems to be some ph raisng issues at first with fresh hydroton. the hydroton always raising the ph, but after a few days it stops. other then that, u clean it and can reuse it an reuse it ; unlike coco. u can reuse coco a few times. but then it seems to cause more issues then its worth. i feel i may have seen poor results in the end as i reused my coco to many times, even with flushing.

thou if u do run coco, i suggest adding like 25% perlite to the mix. i saw better results with the perlite added.



Watering frequency with the coco will be your issue at first. but once the roots are developed and the plant is consuming a good portion of the water u are feeding, those issues i think will dissappear. ( issues meaning slow growth, p def) Coco and recirc dont seem to go together. it seems the rez is only good for a few days, then it seems to create lock outs and problems. Especially if the plants are REALLLYY taking off, def can appear very quickly from a shitty rez.

i found it difficult when i automated coco because they always werent ready for watering on equall times stage & environment dependent. in the end i just attached the drip rings and when I felt they needed water, i plugged in the pump. Not on a timer untill they where like 30+ days into flower. Then the timer worked. i went like every 6hrs with a 4ft plant in 6inch pots at that point under 600's.

But with saying 30+ days then i used the timer................. it would really depend on alot of other things then just saying " the 30 day mark then u can use the timer" ,IME. Plant size, Container size, genetics, stage of growth, TEMPS, HID or CFL's or LED will all play a role in that watering frequency. I thinks this why u can't find a sced on how long and often to feed coco on a timer; to many variables at the root zone that would call for different watering frequencys and length of leaving the pump on.


I didn't like automating coco cause when there young an not established i saw that they didnt like to be overly wet all the time. Def's appear and are problematic, stagnate growth etc..

When " I " look back an would compare coco to hydroton in my experiences,i point out the following.

1 Coco holds alot of water. Good if there feeding fast, bad when there younger and under established. Very bad when its overly wet and u want those roots getting established. medium stays wet, no oxygen, COLD wet conditions roots DO NOT enjoy. Plant suffers. U gotta get that dry out period i feel. Coco can become like quicksand suffocating the roots.

also Coco's a mess to clean up, fungus knats love it.

2 hydroton holds alot less water, never making it a really fully saturated environment for the roots. after the flood has drained, there are still large air pockets in between the clay balls. the air pockets the roots enjoy. the clay balls surface and pores hold moisture and wick it as the plant consumes it. Roots are exposed to more oxygen period. Hydroton is reusable and cleaner in my eyes.

with all i know now, i wish i went with hydroton or lava rock along time ago. But thats me...

Not to push my thread, but I am currently on one of my best runs ever in 8years. check my ebb & flo thread from my username. thou I need to do my 30 day update which is killer. the switch to hydroton for me has brought me ahead leaps and bounds...

Good luck in your searches....

B-safe

 

[*mistress*]

60/40 hydroton/coco...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1483855&postcount=61

or...

50/50 perlite, pumice, large bark, lava rocks, silica stone, aquarium gravel/coco...

water retention + good drainage & aeration.

enjoy your garden!

 

[gmanwho]

60/40 hydroton/coco...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1483855&postcount=61

or...

50/50 perlite, pumice, large bark, lava rocks, silica stone, aquarium gravel/coco...

water retention + good drainage & aeration.

enjoy your garden!

Mistress....everythings fine if u have all the time in the world. And u wanna make things more complicated.

its a pain in the ass running any small particle medium in a recurulating hydro system....... PERIOD.

Soon to be decaying pine bark in flood medium?all slimming and musshing eventually. then have a living root touch that decaying bark. Not even a zyme can help u there. it may work thou, but thats a problem area waiting to happen. or even in 2 recycled runns now that its mush. Not a risk u should be taking.

even the small hydroton balls in the mix suck, pea size or smaller, toss them when u can.

Small medium particles will clogs pumps, clog feed rings, clog strainers on fill/drain tables, clog drip irrigation elbows an tee's. Builds sediment everywhere. Then your pulling this and that apart cleaning and wondering what else is clogged.

then your getting plants that could miss a cycle or 2 or 8 before u realize. I just found a clogged drip ring ,1/4 inch elbow clogged. And i got a large porace aquarium type batting around the mag pump, then a 120 micron final filter attachd to the inlet of the pump. And somehow a piece , "a single piece" of mycrohze flake got in there to clog the elbow. not multiple, ONE.

Needles to say, that plant is the smallest of the other 4 of that same clone. how long was it like that??

ya u can add filters. but then you cleaning them. Filters still gum up an can prevent irrigation.

NO thank u...

hydroton and lava rock are for me. to each is to own...


B-safe

 

[Randybobandy]

In my opinion hydroton grows faster but has more water weight. Not to much faster though.
I think the exelerated growth has to do with incressed watering frequency.
You don't have to deal with cat-ion crap with the balls.
But the balls are heavy. Pros and cons but they both rock when used right.

 

[*mistress*]

bark has been used for very long time. in greenhouse crop production & by orchid gardeners. comes in small (seedling), medium, & large sizes. does not decay like humus. retains its structure through cycle & is very re-usable. does not clog drains.

wood does not disintegrate when watered...

any medium can clog drains... filter & strain 1st... can recirc propagation grade perlite (smallest) if drain is filtered/made correctly.

hydroton is mainly used by hobbists. some hobbists use many different medias. some prefer conventional methods.
gardeners will draw own conclusions...

enjoy your garden!

 

[Rolando Mota]

bark has been used for very long time. in greenhouse crop production & by orchid gardeners. comes in small (seedling), medium, & large sizes. does not decay like humus. retains its structure through cycle & is very re-usable. does not clog drains.

wood does not disintegrate when watered...

Wrong again.

In my 10+ years of real, on planet Earth experience growing orchids one of the first things I learned was that bark breaks down. Because of this you need to replant orchids into new media every couple of years.



Sigh..

 

[*mistress*]

Wrong again.

In my 10+ years of real, on planet Earth experience growing orchids one of the first things I learned was that bark breaks down. Because of this you need to replant orchids into new media every couple of years.

yes, it does gradually break down.

much less than coco in same period or re-use...

as you stated, maybe

every couple of years.

or longer... bark lasts for long periods... especially the large pieces... have not noticed ant structural degradation in yrs of use. if cared for.

what sized bark did you use?
did you amend the bark?
wouldnt orchids need to be re-potted every 2 years or so anyway? whatever media they were in?

bonsai mums get repotted every ~6-8-12 mos...

fairly common to

replant orchids into new media every couple of years.

... as most plants, in general require re-potting more often than than.

why did they nned to be re-potted anyway? because of the orchid bark? or because the plant simply outgrew the pot in 2 years?

please point out

Wrong

in post...
or, maybe just different than the squares trying to fit into circles?

enjoy your garden!

 

[Randybobandy]

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.p...6&page=1&pp=15

This guy uses hydroton. Looks like more than a "hobbie" to me.
More like a calculated masterpiece.

 

[*mistress*]

@ member Randybobandy...

bad link^...

post intends to convey many different mediums can be used in f&d...

enjoy your garden!

 

[Rolando Mota]

please point out wrong

wood does not disintegrate when watered...

VS

yes, it does gradually break down.

As for coco vs hydroton, ran flood&drain with hydroton for a while and had good results. Didn't like having to monitor ph and other variables. After several years of running coco dtw I am convinced. The ultimate "set it and forget it" K.I.S.S. efficiency.

 

[W.P.]

I run Hydroton in F&D and get really good results , I also run Coco in 3 gallon bags RTW.

I would not want to use coco in recirculatory system.

I prefer Coco/Perlite 50/50 - 60/40 for better drainage.** Key ** here as pure Coco hold To much water (IMOP) and you have the problems gmanwho was talking about.

Hydro E&F supper easy , good growth, clean flush. Not as forgiving w/, Ph'ing, organic matter that turns into Brown Algae (not good) ,And so many good products that can have bad effects on your rez that i love to use Floralicious +, Hygrozyme, Bloombastic, Sweet/ Molasses etc.... All do much better in Coco RTW

Hydroton easy to clean when you get a system down, last much longer than Coco.

So it's live and learn. But i think I can/ will get a little bit better buds w/ coco actually because sometimes the instability of adding something new to Hydro.

Coco/Perlite on a Drip for the win , best of both worlds.

 

[*mistress*]

please point out wrong...

wood does not disintegrate when watered...

yes, it does gradually break down...

?...

In my 10+ years of real, on planet Earth experience growing orchids one of the first things I learned was that bark breaks down. Because of this you need to replant orchids into new media every couple of years.

answered own inquiry...

a novice gardener should be able to distinguish the difference between a gradual break down & disintegration... if not, they are below novice level, & should ignore *mistress*' posts.

firewood sits outside for yours w/out disintegrating. so does bark...

hydroton degrades over time... the constant sludge of rinsing after every run. even more of a hassle is the extraction from a diy mix...

coco degrades over time... especially depending on quality...will physically disentegrate faster than bark.

one of the most desireable qualities of coir fiber is that, unlike many of our more commonly used hydroponic substrates, it comes from a renewable resource and because it's a natural by-product from other industries, it can be obtained @ a reasonable cost.
it also decomposes after use, so disposal is less of a problem than with other products...

comparisons of commonly used orchid media
bark
ph.......................slightly acid
fertilizer control......good
leaching................easy
aeartion................good
disposal................good
...
re-potting time.......1-2 years
...
overwatering..........yes
cation exchange.....yes
buffering...............slight

fwiw... the data is for those interested. that have or may explore different media. maybe different media than hydroton or coco, or others common on these boards...

gardeners can draw own conclusion(s)...