Horizontal vs Vertical Lights.

[GrowerGoneWild]

Hellllp!!!! .. well not really.. just need some people to help me think this out.

I'm looking for people that have tried vertical and horizontal lights. I'm planning on a larger grow but I'm kinda stuck on lighting setup.

I have a 8X12 bloom room that I would like to use. I was thinking of using 1 KW on a mover. but I'm kinda stuck on if I should put the lightin a horizontal position and air cool it OR hang it vertical non air cooled

I have a sun systems horizontal hood at the moment, that I could slip a 1KW in.. and air cool it. and put it on a mover.. HOWEVER.

It just seems so much simpler to put a vertical with a hood on a mover. I could do an air cooled vertical..

I was thinking of working a 5x10 area with it.

So here's the criteria:

- Safety, what setup is the safest?.. The one in glass? Or the one
with no hoses attached to it?

- Is a 1KW HPS aircooled horizontal on a mover more effective than
a vertical non aircooled reflector?

- What about heat stress? Is a 1KW hung vertical non aircooled on a mover going to cause heat stress? Even with proper ventilation?



I'm so excited to get my new room going.. I can hardly sleep.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Bummer.. no replies or thoughts on those of you using 1KW lights.

Anywho this is how I'm leaning..

I think for my first setup I'm going to go with using the horizontal reflector 1KW aircooled on a mover.

I will be lighting a rectangular area. Roughly a 10 Ft by 5 Ft section, in a horizontal plane.
Now this works out to be 20 watts per square foot, but on a mover and aircooled to move things closer. I do believe the light will be equal to 50 watts per square foot.

So a circular pattern, although better laterally will be wasted light.

I've worked with 80WPSF. And I got some great colas that were easily 4 fingers thick. So I think I'm close to my target. Considering that was a 400, I cant wait so see some real monsters with a 1 KW light. The light penetration will be great.

Really, the length of the section is working against me.

Whatcha think?

 

[FreezerBoy]

It just seems so much simpler to put a vertical with a hood on a mover. I could do an air cooled vertical..

A hood on a vertical destroys the purpose. It leaves 75% of your plants without direct light. Vertical hangs a bare bulb in a circle of plants radiating light 360º.

 

[Lazyman]

Yeah for that big an area I'd suggest at least two bulbs, I think you'll be unhappy with the density of 1 bulbs buds.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

A hood on a vertical destroys the purpose. It leaves 75% of your plants without direct light. Vertical hangs a bare bulb in a circle of plants radiating light 360º.

Hmmm.. a bit of miscommunication here.

This grow for now, will be in a horizontal plane. No vertical growing planned _yet_ .

I like to think I"m somewhat familar with vertical grows. I'm aware of the light pattern. I've run about a half dozen strains in my verti grow cab.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Yeah for that big an area I'd suggest at least two bulbs, I think you'll be unhappy with the density of 1 bulbs buds.

Gah. I knew somebody was going to say that.. something like why dont you run dual 600s?..

To clear things up:

A) 1KW Horizontal (sun systems 2) aircooled on a mover.

OR

B) 1KW vertical hung light with umbrella looking reflector on a mover.

Those are your only choices..

There is no alternate lighting, I already have the gear. I'm just kinda mashing things out and mebby try to learn something before the ladies hit the bloom room.

 

[whatissixbynine]

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[whazzup]

of course the umbrella. Any glass blocking your light will cost you 7-10% of light. Use air cooled lights only if you have a climate problem.

In a room that big you could easily fit many more lights. I would recommend 2 x 600 instead of the mover and the 1000 watt: cheaper, more efficient, better results.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

of course the umbrella. Any glass blocking your light will cost you 7-10% of light. Use air cooled lights only if you have a climate problem.

In a room that big you could easily fit many more lights. I would recommend 2 x 600 instead of the mover and the 1000 watt: cheaper, more efficient, better results.

Yeah I know I can fit more lights, but the 1KW is what I have now.
so I'm kinda stuck with it.

7 to 10% is kinda high for loss dont you think? The loss to me seems like it could be made up by moving the light closer and not getting heat stress, light bleaching mebby.

Like i said before, I am NOT going 600 x 2. I am geared up for 1KW.

Heres more theory of mine:

-Horizontal lights with a reflector have more canopy penetration.

-Vertical lights have even room distribution. (Could be because of the reflector design.?)

So with that being said. I keep thinking about the arrangement of the element within the bulb.

Horizontal lights have the element parallel with the plants in a typical grow.

Vertical lights have the element perpendicular to the grow. So its safe to assume with typical umbrella type that the radiation is not directly aimed at the planted from the element but reflected.

HOWEVER...

No matter the vertical or horizontal nature of the light the reflector
determines the pattern.

I dunno.. I would kinda lean back towards the hood. So I dont have to rig up a vent hose to the reflector. Makes it simple.

I'm sure that eventually the room with have multiple lights on movers, however.... one light is what I have to work with now.

 

[whazzup]

LOL well you gave us the choice out of 2 solutions

if you only have 1 KW to use I wonder if you actually can run a 1000 watt ballast. Though most electronic ballasts have a soft start, they do have a small inrush. Also, you will need extraction etc. which will add another 100-200 watt to your load.

I's never a good idea to use a circuit breaker to its maximum capacity. On one group go to 75% max for safety.

Alternative: 2 m2 in scrog under 2 x 400 watt and get 6-800 grams per grow when tuned.

Good luck!

 

[spacecaser]

I would deff use the horizontal w/ mover, you can get closer to the plants and you really want as much direct light from that bulb as possible I have an 8x12 room w/ half of it used for flowering w/1x 1kw HPS. Rite now Im using a vertical reflector and it kinda sucks (its what I have) It spreads the light out but spreads it thin. A horizontal w/ mover is on my list or more likely, ditch the 1kw ballast for two 600w hps or four 400w

Good luck man!

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

LOL well you gave us the choice out of 2 solutions

if you only have 1 KW to use I wonder if you actually can run a 1000 watt ballast. Though most electronic ballasts have a soft start, they do have a small inrush. Also, you will need extraction etc. which will add another 100-200 watt to your load.

I's never a good idea to use a circuit breaker to its maximum capacity. On one group go to 75% max for safety.

Alternative: 2 m2 in scrog under 2 x 400 watt and get 6-800 grams per grow when tuned.

Good luck!

I have plenty of room to run the 1KW on that circut, its a 20 amp
breaker, no problem, and I've been running a 1KW MH on it.

Good point about the breaker load concern.. You might have saved me a potential headache.

Thanks for the input..

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Alot of people have been suggesting the multiple light setup. Verti's or Horiz.. 600X 2
or 4 400's.

Well heres the situation, I'm starting this room from scratch, Its your typical empty room
so my budget is blown on all the other crap that it takes to get a room going. My wallet is pretty empty with christmas, birthdays, etc etc.. The timing is bad.

I'm not saying that those of you that suggested multiple lights is wrong, but I only have the 1 light to work with.

 

[whazzup]

I think two 600W lights on 4 x 8 ft will be cheaper to buy and will give a better result than one light and one mover. I'm from the "old world" though, where we like to make a room as easy and stable as possible without many single points of failure. Two smaller lights allow you to come as close to the plants as one big one on a mover, while still having overlap of light for more even light on your plants. Considering the space I would say 600 watt is the best alternative: Efficacy of the 600 watts is better than 1000 watt lamps, plus you have a much more even climate. Starting up you just need one 600 (could even switch that for a metal halide to start up), as they grow and are repotted you can get them to bloom under two lights. With one dimmable 600W ballast of the two you even have the possibility of starting under 400 watt MH.

For the 600 watt lights you don't need a cooled hood so you have a choice of cheaper reflectors.

Just my 2 eurocents

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

For the 600 watt lights you don't need a cooled hood so you have a choice of cheaper reflectors.

Just my 2 eurocents

Are you sure about that?.. I just saw a 600 supposedly burn up from not having a proper fan cooling it I guess they were using a tiny axial fan.

Anywho, I've always used a fan on a smaller 400, or even my combo 250/100 cooltube,

I think the hotspot created by a housed horizontal requires air cooling. I know this because I tried running a non-ventilated 400 on a grow and it heat stressed the plants directly under the reflector.

I'm sure canopy distance comes into play too when talking about
heat stress.

I think I would like the vertical reflectors more if I was doing trees, but thats not the case, I need canopy penetration, I'm most likely going to go SOG style.

So for the most part I want to direct the light in downwards in a rectangular shape.

Anywho the cost for a multiple light setup is more. Even if I was to simply hang them from the mogul base.

So lets calculate: Local prices only.

Horizontal:
1KW HPS ballast 190 USD
1KW HPS Hortilux 140 USD
Sunsystems 2 reflector. FREE
Total 330.


600 X 2 160 ea. 320 USD
600 X2 Hortilux 100 Ea 200
Mogul Sockets. Free.
-No reflector free hanging vertical
Total 520

With umbrella reflectors. 80 X 2. 160
Total 680.

As I said many times before, multiple lights is not an option now.
I will slowly have to grow and evolve the room over time, but
the 1KW is my only option.

I do thank you for your input on an optimum setup and for the most part its right. But really, input on what equipment I have is more helpful than what I cant get at the moment.

I can only work with what I have.

 

[whazzup]

I think in the second situation you forgot the mover and the Hortilux lamps are a bit cheaper I think, but I don't know Hortilux lights that well. Also think about the uniformity of the light, that would improve using two lights

About heat spots, growing styles etc: There is such a world of difference between the US and Europe growing styles. Air cooled lights are not popular here and only used as a problem solver or sometimes with CO2 installations. Here's an example of a grow of a friend of mine, a few years back already. Plants are in 11L each, 2 sprays per pot for top watering, on Danish trays, peat substrate. 1-2 week veg (depending on the strain), then 8-9 weeks flowering. Just to illustrate the simplicity.

Heat in a small reflector should not be a problem for the lamp. In horticulture we use (small) reflectors that bring down 96% of the light with a uniformity of over 90%. It's actually good that a lamp heats up a bit, or it will, with some ballast combinations, not come to it's actual capacity. I just published an ongoing test about that. I think much is due to the design of the reflector. I would imagine that in a large reflector you catch much more heat, it sorta "pours out" a small or open reflector. In Europe the open Adjust a wings are very popular btw. Vertical light grows are not popular at all. 600 watt is the most popular lamp, in professional greenhouses 1KW 400V systems are popular, but you don't see a lot of 1KW in hydroponics here.

Anyways, I'm sure that 1KW will be a lot of fun to play with and don't let my "alien" view get in the way. Always just go for the quality . Good luck!

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

I think in the second situation you forgot the mover and the Hortilux lamps are a bit cheaper I think, but I don't know Hortilux lights that well. Also think about the uniformity of the light, that would improve using two lights

About heat spots, growing styles etc: There is such a world of difference between the US and Europe growing styles. Air cooled lights are not popular here and only used as a problem solver or sometimes with CO2 installations. Here's an example of a grow of a friend of mine, a few years back already. Plants are in 11L each, 2 sprays per pot for top watering, on Danish trays, peat substrate. 1-2 week veg (depending on the strain), then 8-9 weeks flowering. Just to illustrate the simplicity.

Heat in a small reflector should not be a problem for the lamp. In horticulture we use (small) reflectors that bring down 96% of the light with a uniformity of over 90%. It's actually good that a lamp heats up a bit, or it will, with some ballast combinations, not come to it's actual capacity. I just published an ongoing test about that. I think much is due to the design of the reflector. I would imagine that in a large reflector you catch much more heat, it sorta "pours out" a small or open reflector. In Europe the open Adjust a wings are very popular btw. Vertical light grows are not popular at all. 600 watt is the most popular lamp, in professional greenhouses 1KW 400V systems are popular, but you don't see a lot of 1KW in hydroponics here.

Anyways, I'm sure that 1KW will be a lot of fun to play with and don't let my "alien" view get in the way. Always just go for the quality . Good luck!

Nothing wrong with your "alien" view.

I did notice something tho'

Are those are horizontal lights in an umbrella reflector? Europe or here I think people are realizing that the element must be placed parallel to the grow for optimum lighting. Given the growing area is in a horizontal plane.

Hortilux is an upgraded HPS bulb..

I dont think we're stuck in any certian way in the US. I have friends that grow using all types of reflectors.

Interesting point about bulbs heating up to optimum temp. I guess I could lower the CFM out of the blower by adding a filter to lower cooling power.

Thanks again.

 

[whazzup]

These are horizontal lights in aluminium reflectors, they are not umbrellas. I know you're not stuck into anything, I just see a lot of different gear on the US and European market

As far as I know there is no horticultural light here that has its lamp vertical, they all grow horizontal. I think hat's also due to the the fact that the reflectors must be compact to not intercept sunlight in greenhouses. The distance from the lamp to the plant is of course much greater in a greenhouse so it's hard to compare the two.

What we saw with the use of small (computer) fans to cool the lights in the open hoods: It has a negative effect, as it spreads the heat in the growroom, blows it out of the reflector. If you don't blow into the reflector it will just leak from the sides and move up: warm air moves up unless you move it yourself.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

What we saw with the use of small (computer) fans to cool the lights in the open hoods: It has a negative effect, as it spreads the heat in the growroom, blows it out of the reflector. If you don't blow into the reflector it will just leak from the sides and move up: warm air moves up unless you move it yourself.

Warm air is only part of my problem.. I'm kinda concerned about the heat radiation.

You might be onto something here. Seeing how 1KW bulbs generally need more distance and canopy penetration is greater, I should have less heat radiation to worry about.

So thinking about this.

Lateral lighting is important to my growing style, I dont need light to penetrate that deeply into the canopy since I'm doing SOG with 1 month veg time.

This also simplifies my grow... This would eliminate my need to provide ductwork for the light on the mover.

What I need to do is to run the light in the room for 24 hours with zero ventilation and find the highs and low temps to see if I can run without directly aircooling a light.

 

[whazzup]

that would be a good translation to your situation. The heat radiation from a HPS light is enormous. You normally only see the PAR graph of a light but what they don't show you is this:

This is the spectrum of a 600 watt HPS light, including the infra red spectrum. While in greenhouses this is welcomed it can be a problem with indoor lighting.