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Smell may NOT be probable cause to search a vehicle.

thekingofNY

Cannasseur
This should apply for all states with decriminalized laws, I think.

Granted it hasn't been taken to court yet, just a defense attorney making the statement, however it makes logical sense. When you get a civil ticket for speeding or running a stop sign, its not probable cause to search a car, why should simple marijuana possession be.

Article:
Last week a state trooper stopped Robert Adamuska Jr. in Charlton for speeding, and after encountering an “odor of fresh marijuana” asked Mr. Adamuska if he “had anything” in the car.

“Ya,” Mr. Adamuska allegedly answered. “A pound of weed under the passenger’s seat. I also have a quarter in my pants.”

The trooper then searched the car and found a pound of marijuana under the seat, and half an ounce in Mr. Adamuska’s pocket.

Initially, I thought Mr. Adamuska was smoking too much of his own stuff or that he had badly misread the state’s “Sensible Marijuana Law,” which has decriminalized less than an ounce of the drug.

It is quite common for people to misread the law, or to not have read it at all. Some assume for example that if they are smoking a joint, and the police stop them, it’s because the officer wants to party with them.

This appears to be what happened to British author, editor and political commentator Andrew Sullivan in September, when he was stopped by a park ranger while smoking marijuana on a Cape Cod beach. The ranger asked him if he had any other joints and Sullivan pulled another from his wallet.

The ranger was not in the mood, and, more significantly, the beach was federal property, which means the federal law governing marijuana — a Class B misdemeanor punishable by up to 6 months in jail and a $5,000 fine — trumped the new Massachusetts law.

Mr. Adamuska, however, may have fessed up to his marijuana possession not because he misread the law but because he might have assumed that he and his car would have been searched anyway. If that was his assumption, he may have been right.

Although some people believe that “odor-based” searches are questionable, if not illegal under the new Massachusetts marijuana law, police officers continue to use the presence of a “fresh” or “burnt” marijuana smell as probable cause to conduct a search of a person or a vehicle.

In October, for example, the car in which three men from Lynn were driving was stopped in Sturbridge because its rear license plate lights were out.

About a pound of marijuana was found in the car, and the men were charged with possession and intent to distribute the drug. The car was searched based on the trooper’s assertion that a can of Axe body spray had been used to apparently mask the odor of marijuana.

Similarly in November, a Worcester woman and a Revere man were pulled over for excessive window tint in Sturbridge, arrested and charged with allegedly having 15 grams of cocaine and more than $48,000 cash in their possession. Worthwhile bust, you say?

Maybe, but does it matter that the drug and cash were found when their vehicle was searched based on the officer’s assertion that “burnt marijuana” smell was coming from the passenger compartment?

Kathleen M. McCarthy, a criminal defense lawyer in Boston, writing on her office blog earlier this year, argued that while the courts have upheld such searches in certain situations in the past, the grounds for them have been eroded by the Massachusetts marijuana law, which she said equates pot citations to traffic citations.

She believes one could make the argument that similar to a traffic violation, a marijuana violation provides a basis to issue a civil citation, not to conduct a search. “Even if the court believes that a police officer possessed the training and experience to smell marijuana that would not provide a basis to search a car, a person or a home,” she wrote.

Ms. McCarthy also argued that an amount of marijuana cannot be determined based on a smell of the substance and that an odor of marijuana is more likely to be indicative of a noncriminal infraction of possessing an ounce or less of the drug.

Her argument sounds reasonable and it should give some, and I emphasize “some” (after all, she is a defense lawyer), comfort to recreational users such as the Jill Lane resident in Sterling who has been written up a couple of times in the Sterling police log this year as the “neighbor” who “smokes marijuana every night at the same time.”

http://www.telegram.com/article/20091202/COLUMN44/912020374
 
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Skip

Active member
Veteran
That's a good point! When LEO smells marijuana it should be assumed that it is within the law (unless it smells just smoked in a vehicle), in a decriminalized state, and not a violation of the law.

Again this is the LEO mindset that must change. The possession and consumption of marijuana should be considered to be legal unless proven otherwise. Smell alone should not be the basis for a search anymore since smell alone does not indicate any laws are being broken.
 
too bad it wont hold up in court. cops get away with saying anything they want in court. the evidence against you in court is the officers nose, how can one argue with that? they will assume 10 times out of 10 that the cop is telling the truth and smelt "burnt marijuana odors".
nice try, but in most draconian states 'round these parts they smell it, your busted.
though ive been pulled over a total of 2 times now whilst smoking hash, and i guess they must not have smelt it, or dont know what hash smells like or something because i got off both times they didnt even mention it.
maybe with all the schwag they normally find they forgot what real medicine smells like. or i got lucky.
 

thekingofNY

Cannasseur
Pistil I dont think you understand. The citizens of MA said last november that they wanted to decriminalize possession of under an oz of any form of thc. Its not criminal, just 100$ ticket. Like speeding or running a stop sign without making a complete stop. Granted its illegal, but not jailable offenses.

Therefor if someone is driving with a 1/4 or 1/2oz in there pocket or center console, they are committing no crime that an officer can search a car or arrest for.
 

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
“Even if the court believes that a police officer possessed the training and experience to smell marijuana that would not provide a basis to search a car, a person or a home,” she wrote."

Wishful thinking, in my view.

Is this a sensible argument? Yes. Is it likely to prevail in court? No. Not in my opinion. The smell test is a ridiculously useful and intrusive excuse for Law Enforcement to justify all kinds of searches that can't be proven or disproven after the fact.

If they find nothing after a "smell" based search, then there is no harm done (from the perspective of LEO) and there will be no complaint in court which concerns their tactics. If they do find something - then they were right all along, weren't they? The court will back them up on it.

If the judge is one of the relatively few appointed to the bench from the defence bar, he or she might buy into this argument. Judges with a background as a prosecutor (far more of those on the bench) or who have developed a more chatty relationship with LEOs are very unlikely to let this excuse for conducting spot searches go. Appeal courts? Even more so. It's simply too useful.

Even in Canada, where they tend to be far less Hang em High about these matters than the courts are in the USA - one of their provincial appeal courts recently confirmed the smell test under rather extreme circumstances too. Different legal tests and different laws to be sure, but the motives behind the decisions? Exactly the same.

So is this a possible outcome at a trial? Yes. Likely result? Not in the least.
 
All this shit continues to happen because of the lack of political participation from the US general population. Nothing is "ideal" about this world and there seems to be very few of us, relatively speaking, who are truly incorruptible.
 
M

MoldyFrogToe

Thanks from a fellow NE'er for the post. That's interesting. Thanks bud.
 
B

Blue Dot

Pistil I dont think you understand. The citizens of MA said last november that they wanted to decriminalize possession of under an oz of any form of thc. Its not criminal, just 100$ ticket. Like speeding or running a stop sign without making a complete stop. Granted its illegal, but not jailable offenses.

The same can be said for cali but if an officer in cali smells "burnt" MJ it's completely reasonable IMO for the officer to assume the driver may be "under the influence of a controlled substance (whether legal or not)" and therefore detain and search the driver on those grounds.

There's nothing "civil" about driving under the influence of anything.
 
Cops are gonna do what they do and say what they wanna make up in court until its finally completely federaly legal to posess marijuana. IMHO. Peace.
 
Traffic stops are their bread and better, next to tips from jealous exes. Well, you can't argue with a cop to well....and they always take it more seriously, well with a house they have to be trained to distinguish between growing cannabis and dried or smoked cannabis...but with a car, man anything and they know they have you! But as far as a warrant on a house, they will think about you but it's a real rare jerk to just try to barg on in telling you that he doesn't need a warrant yet your laughing at him trying to open the door...that isn't going to open itself. As far as a car, don't drive they will rip you out and beat your ass!
 

NS775

Member
When charged with a marijuana crime, it is every marijuana smoking citizens duty to argue the case in court and occupy as much of the states time and resources as humanly possible. As it stands right now, that is the most compelling arguement for the non-smoking population to legalize it (the burden on the justice system). Its also most likely the reason we've made so much progress so far.

My question here is how does this affect drug dog searches, specifically at traffic stops.

Not sure if its federal or just my state, but here if you are stopped for a traffic violation the cops can bring a dog around the OUTSIDE of your car and that does not constitute a search. If the dog just happens to signal on your car (of course they aren't trained to signal on command!) THEN they can search your car. Presuming dogs aren't trained to distinguish between drugs detected, then because small possession is potentially a civil offense, a dog signaling could still only be a civil offense.
 

Skip

Active member
Veteran
From my knowledge about drug sniffing dogs, they must be given a sample scent to know what to look for at that moment. So the dog handler carries a sample of what they want the dog to find, and he sniffs for that one substance only. Whether a dog can automatically signal any drug they've ever been trained for seems unlikely.

I remember once I was at the border and I could see into a gated area where customs searches cars. I watched the dog handler pull out a bag of mj from his pocket for the dog to sniff. Then the dog went over the car and found something. That's my only reason for thinking this, other than it being logical.
 

Surrender

Member
Most states have open container laws for booze don't they? Similar laws might be useful in medical states.

Wouldn't this solve the "car smells like weed" issue to some extent? If the container is sealed from the dispensary, or if the caregiver seals up his product before transport and then washes up, the problem would be diminished some I think.
 
Smell does not hold up in court. Same as feelings. You can't prove your fealings or smells.
If it can't be qauntified measured or seen it can't be proven. If a cop smells something how is he sure were it came from. Does he/she just ASSume it came from you by profiling you. Smell is subjective. They are not bloodhounds. The only time it will get you in trouble is if you play into it. If dude says your car smells like weed. I dont smell anything and I do not consent to a search. If they have or call in a dog-WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD.
 
What do you think would happen if u cooked some stem tea, put it in water baloons or squirt guns and sprayed it outside the local police station and on the cars they transport the dogs in. Lol. Would the dogs keep freakin out everytime they were brought outa the station and stuff? Not that I would ever do this. Conversation I had with an old head that said they would have to get new dogs cause they would think the ones they have are broke. lol. Idk
 
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kmk420kali

Freedom Fighter
Veteran
From my knowledge about drug sniffing dogs, they must be given a sample scent to know what to look for at that moment. So the dog handler carries a sample of what they want the dog to find, and he sniffs for that one substance only. Whether a dog can automatically signal any drug they've ever been trained for seems unlikely.

I remember once I was at the border and I could see into a gated area where customs searches cars. I watched the dog handler pull out a bag of mj from his pocket for the dog to sniff. Then the dog went over the car and found something. That's my only reason for thinking this, other than it being logical.

Here is a li'l info on how they train them--
http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-dog4.htm

Police Dog Drug Training

<!-- dtl_id=38935 //--> People often wonder if dogs sniff out hidden drugs because they want to eat them, or because they're addicted to drugs themselves. In fact, the dogs have absolutely no interest in drugs. What they're actually looking for is their favorite toy. Their training has led them to associate that toy with the smell of drugs.
The toy used most often is a white towel. Police dogs love to play a vigorous game of tug-of-war with their favorite towel. To begin the training, the handler simply plays with the dog and the towel, which has been carefully washed so that it has no scent of its own. Later, a bag of marijuana is rolled up inside the towel. After playing for a while, the dog starts to recognize the smell of marijuana as the smell of his favorite toy. The handler then hides the towel, with the drugs, in various places. Whenever the dog sniffs out the drugs, he digs and scratches, trying to get at his toy. He soon comes to learn that if he sniffs out the smell of drugs, as soon as he finds them he'll be rewarded with a game of tug-of-war.
As training progresses, different drugs are placed in the towel, until the dog is able to sniff out a host of illegal substances. The same method is used for bomb-detection dogs, except various chemicals used to manufacture explosives are placed in the towel instead of drugs.
A story recounted in "Dogs On the Case," by Patricia Curtis, tells of a drug dog that was a little too eager for a game of tug-of-war. While walking along a line of cars waiting to enter the United States from Mexico, one of the dogs alerted to the smell of drugs, slipped her leash, and ran down the line of cars. Before her handler could find her, she trotted back into view, holding a large brick of marijuana in her jaws. Although the border patrol had no way to tell which car the drugs came from, the dog still got her tug-of-war. She did her job, and the drugs were off the street.
 

Moldy Dreads

Active member
Veteran
Good luck, I know a cop (my ex neighbor sheriff looking for tweakers) that searches all vehicles he pulls over in a certain part of town at night..Depends on who and where..cops bend laws ALOT.
 

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