PL-L or 2' T5 for Rubbermade?

[LEDGro]

So I have been working of designing a small rubbermade grow box. I see that many people use basic CFL's but I was wondering if there was a better option. I have heard people talk about PL-L lights. Also I have found some small T5 fixtures like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/GROW-mh-BLOOM-h...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef9c54f71

I have also just heard about these PURPle lights but cant seem to find them in the US. If anyone knows where to get them please post!

What do you think would be the best for 2 35G rubbermades on top of each other? I would prefer something with an external ballast that I could keep outside of the box to try and keep down heat.

I am very new at this and would rather buy the correct CFL once then constantly spend $$$ upgrading.

 

[LEDGro]

It seems that the PL-L might be the best choice. I still want to hear from people but I would also like to know where to buy fixtures and ballasts for PL-L lights. I would be willing to pay a bit more for a complete kit but DIY is ok.

EDIT: I found this writeup on wiring up remote ballasts. Would this be a correct guide to follow:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=112670&highlight=pl-l

 

[fatigues]

Pl-L is nearly twice as efficient and strong as a T5HO of corresponding length. Cheaper too.

That ends that debate.

PL-L ordering/buying info is here.

 

[LEDGro]

Thanks for the info. Can anyone comment on the 80W PL bulb? They look nice! They are 22" long, so two would fit nicely in a large rubbermaid. Could they run off of the same ballast?

80W PL Bulb

Fatigues: Will these kits from AHSupply run PL-L bulbs? If so seems like a perfect easy way to get everything I need.

 

[LEDGro]

When using PL lights I noticed most people mount them on one side. Would it be better to have one bulb on each side to try and even out the spread of light?

Here are two quick designs for my mounting, which one looks better?

 

[#1cheesebuds]

while I havent used PL lights befor. just cfl lights.

I would go with the 2ed one. because Im thinking it would give off a wider spectrum of light per squar foot. thats 2 cents.

but I would wate to hear what scrubninja thinks or anyone that has used the pl lights.

 

[ScrubNinja]

The 55w is the most efficient model for lumens per watt. I would look into hanging the bulbs vertically in the middle (not on the side/walls) but I don't know what your dimensions are. You can even use tubing from regular fluoros as a cooltube, ala the High-pod. But from those pics, option two looks best to me too. Best of luck.

 

[LEDGro]

I would not have thought about hanging the bulbs vertically. Are there any grows that show this setup?

I am still working on choosing the right container. I think that only using one container would be much more stealthy. I was looking at the Rubbermaid Square Bruit container because they have more vertical headroom. They have a 28 and 40 gallon versions.

The 28G is 21.5"L x 21.5"W x 22.5"H. This seems perfect for a small grow. Here is where I found them for sale: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23323&catid=770 The 40G might be better though. Its 23.5'' Square and 28.5" H. Will that extra space be useful?

How does this size seem? I figure it would be good fit for 2x 55W lights with reflectors. Would a S&P TD-100X and small carbon scrubber be sufficient for odor control and airflow?

Add to that a few computer fans inside to blow on the plants and a scrog screen and it seems I could have a nice small setup.

 

[LEDGro]

I was looking at the bulb specs again and the sylvania's are 21.1" long. So I guess that forces me to use either the 40G Square Roughneck or another container. Including the endcaps the bulbs should fit but it wold be tight.

 

[Aerohead]

Option #2 would be slightly better for light distribution but not for cooling or canopy training. PL-L bulbs run almost twice as hot at the socket end of the bulb so you would have a tough time keeping the canopy close to the bulbs with the sockets opposite. Even if cooling was not an issue, you will have to train the canopy in quite a strange way with that setup. You have to keep the canopy very close to the bulbs to get the most out of those lights. I would go with option #1 for cooling benefits as well as the ability to run the canopy on a slight slant away from the sockets to avoid burning the buds.

 

[fatigues]

Thanks for the info. Can anyone comment on the 80W PL bulb? They look nice! They are 22" long, so two would fit nicely in a large rubbermaid. Could they run off of the same ballast?

80W PL Bulb

We have not seen anyone use those here on ICM and the 80w PL-L is new. Looking at the lumens output in your link, it seems less efficient than the 55W – which puts out an initial lumens of 4800 or so. The 55w PL-L lamps available here costs less than $3.00 a lamp when you buy 10 of them. I would recommend going with these lamps to start. You can add 3000k lamps for flowering if you feel the need, and even pick up some 6500k lamps from AH supply if you like too. But I would start with the 4100k lamps at least to start. They are tried and true proven performers – and they are cheap. If you also want 3000k lamps specifically for flowering? Order ten more of those,too. They are the same price at about $2.75 each from 1000bulbs.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/4100-Kelvin-55-Watt-4-Pin-2G11-Base-Compact-Fluorescent-Light-Bulbs/40749/

Fatigues: Will these kits from AHSupply run PL-L bulbs? If so seems like a perfect easy way to get everything I need.

You’ll do better sourcing the ballasts and bulbs from 1000 bulbs.com and getting your 2G11 bases from a local electrical supply shop on special order (2.00-3.50 per socket). The 2G11 base that you want is made by Etlin Daniels, part number CF2G11-RSM-REL Releasable -Rear Screw Mount. You can see it here on page 17:

http://www.etlin.com/ED_pdfs/C_Compact_Fluorescent.pdf

Etlin is one of the world’s largest electrical supply manufacturers and most electrical supply stores in North America and Europe can order from them. The CFG211-RSM-REL is a superior socket, because if has a locking mechanism on it to prevent the 4 pins at the base of the lamp from slipping out of the socket. This isn’t normally a problem when your lamp is horizontal over the top of the grow; however, if you are going to grow vertically with the 55w PL-L lamp – in a High-Pod, Hydro PiLLar or even used as a bare bulb vertically like Scrub suggests - all of those designs could have your lamp slipping out of the socket. The locking CFG211-RSM-REL is just what the doctor ordered to prevent the bulb from slipping out of the socket base under those conditions.

The only reason you want to get parts from AH Supply is if you are looking for 6500k 55w lamps – which are carried by AH Supply and not by 1000bulbs. They are quite expensive though when compared to a $3.00 4100k lamp from 1000bulbs.

AH Supply also sells miro reflectors for 55w and 96 w PL-L lamps. They appear to be a little more expensive than the list price offered by Cool Lights, but AH Supply’s shipping cost is reasonable and Cool Light’s is not – so they end up being a little cheaper to buy at AH Supply. For the types of growing methods I’ve been discussing here, however, there is no need to purchase a reflector.

The 80w PL-L does not seem worth it to me. The 96w PL-L is another matter as it is nearly a three foot long bulb and it has its attractions. Problem is, those lamps are available only in the aquarium trade at this stage and are prohibitively expensive by the time you factor in the larger number of Fullham e-ballasts it will take to power them. I seriously considered installing 6x 96w PL-L lamps in my PiLLar, but in the end, I couldn’t justify the cost, (and could not find a source of 96w PL-L lamps less than 6500k in temp, either). I went with 2x Workhorse 8’s and 8x 55w PL-L instead.

I would not have thought about hanging the bulbs vertically. Are there any grows that show this setup?

No there are not, other than as deployed vertically on the perimeter of a cylinder. (Read on for details about that.)

Scrub and I have discussed this idea in the past and I’m somewhat intrigued by it too. One obvious idea is to set up your grow chamber so that it is essentially a 360 cylindrical vertical grow with the bulbs in the centre. I’m not sure how practical this approach really is, however, as the number of bulbs you’ll end up deploying in the centre of your cylinder will have the lights blocking one another. It’s not that much more efficient than just deploying them on the perimeter of a cylinder. You could just put them down instead in a staggered pattern in a square or rectangular grow area, which was an idea that Scrub thought might work well. Someday I may try this, but for now, I’m more enchanted by the strengths of the “Lamp Scrog” that installing the lamps on a perimeter of a cylinder provides.

I am still working on choosing the right container. I think that only using one container would be much more stealthy. I was looking at the Rubbermaid Square Bruit container because they have more vertical headroom. They have a 28 and 40 gallon versions.

If you are considering a 40 gallon roughneck style container, I expect that you have not read about the High-pod. I strongly suggest that you do. The High-pod is still the reigning champion on ICM for highest yield using PL-L lamps. I’m in the midst of building two variants of the High-pod for use with hydroponics and which addresses the biggest drawback of ineffectualize’s original design – the inability to fully access the plant during the grow. We’re calling our variants “hydro PiLLars”.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=92259

The 40G might be better though. Its 23.5'' Square and 28.5" H. Will that extra space be useful?

Again, I suggest a High-Pod design using either a 42 gallon trash can or, better still, my PiLLar design using a standard 55 gallon shipping barrel. The PiLLar design is superior because the circumference of the barrel does not change or flare out as it does with a standard trash can. This allows you to use the wired cylindrical barrel as a “lighting lid” over your grow which you can remove during the course of the grow to tend to your plant, check for nanners, etc. without damaging the plant.

How does this size seem? I figure it would be good fit for 2x 55W lights with reflectors. Would a S&P TD-100X and small carbon scrubber be sufficient for odor control and airflow?

I bought TD-100x set up for use with my PiLLar design. They are ideal and, if anything, a little overpowered for a single PiLLar. A TD-100 would serve as well; however, the marginal cost of a TD-100x over a TD-100 is negligible, and the extra CFMs is always nice to have. You could run two PiLLars off of a single TD-100x, imo.

In the original High-Pod, the design called for 6x55w PL-L lamps, wired to two ballasts: a Fulham Workhorse 7 or 8, and a Fulham workhorse 5. That allowed you to run 6 x 55w lamps off of those 2 ballasts. The issue which I looked at was just how sensible that approach was, given the marginal cost of adding more light and a bit more overall vertical height to my PiLLar design. The cost of 2 Fullham Workhorse 8’s is only $10 more than the cost of a Workhorse 8 and a Workhorse 5 which would be necessary to run six lamps. Add in the cost of two more sockets and two more lamps? It was an increase of only $20 for 25% more light. That’s a no brainer, imo.

I’ve opted to go for 2 Workhorse 8’s and 8 x 55w PL-L lamps in my Hydro PiLLar. Deploying the eight lamps on the edge of the barrel, with a slight staggering to the lamps of about 8 inches off centre to increase the overall vertical height covered by the lamps, I can completely light the interior of the barrel to a vertical height of 30”, instead of the high-Pod’s 22” of vertically lit height. Visually, think of the lights as set up in your "figure B" above, except there are eight of them are lined up vertically equidistant along the inside of the barrel in cool tubes. The 2G11 sockets are all on the same end, towards the top of the barrel.

The original High-Pod’s grow was a single indica plant in coco coir. Ineffectualize pulled 5.7 ounces out of his trash can using 330w of Pl-L with that one single plant. My PiLLars are designed for hydroponics and use DWC. I hope to get six ounces (or more) out of my first run with 440w of PL-L– but if I can manage four ouces, I’ll still call it a success.

Add to that a few computer fans inside to blow on the plants and a scrog screen and it seems I could have a nice small setup.

With a high-pod or PiLLar design, you don’t need any other fans if you are using a TD-100x and you don’t need a scrog. Because of the 360 degree lighting the plant receives, the whole perimeter of the plant becomes actively lit at the same distance from the lamps as any other part of the plant (more or less). In other words, the design means you did not scrog the plant – you "scrogged" the lights! Your whole plant is therefore ALREADY “scrogged” without you doing a damn thing and by just letting it grow like topsy inside the barrel. In the PiLLar’s 55 gallon barrel, the 360 degree lighting inside of it all around the plant translates to the same square footage as you would get from a single plant, scrogged in a roughly 2x4’ area lit horizontally (There is a little over 7.5 sq. feet of “scrog”, in a perimeter lit PiLLar).

 

[LEDGro]

Wow thank you for the long informative post. I dont think I will be able to use the round barrel design though. Basically I feel that it would look odd in the area I am putting it. A square container would blend right in with other containers I have.

I love the design though and will build one when I am able. It has inspired me to take another look at the lighting of the square tub though.

Do you think I could put 1 55W light on each side and then 2 on the top? I know it wouldn't be as efficient as a circular enclosure but would it work?

If I was to put lights on the side should I mount them vertically or horizontally?

Should I still scrog if I do this? I figure If I scrog I would put the size lights horizontally and if not I would mount them vertically.

For bulb selection are you saying all I should get is the 4100K bulbs and use them for both veg and flower?

Once again thanks, I look forward to the responses.

 

[ambertrich]

LEDGro, you may want to check out HTGSupply. They have a 2x55W PLL fixture that includes the two 55W bulbs (110W total) and a nice professional looking reflector for $69.99.

Replacement bulbs are available as 3000's and 6500's and are about $7.00 each ( $15.95 a pair).

I use mine for starting seedlings and for clones, but I bet this baby would rock in a microgrow.

I looked at the stuff at AH and Cool lights and for the price, I don't see how I could have gotten a better deal.

 

[LEDGro]

Thanks for the info.

 

[fatigues]

If you are bound and determined to use a square roughneck style container and you intend to scrog, you should strongly consider having your container "upside down". The lid becomes the base your plants will sit on (I am assuming you intend to grow in soil/less medium and not hydro). You may want to put weather stripping on the base lid edge so you get an air-tight seal for odor control.

Reason: You need to be able to get under your screen easily - and that's not going to happen very easily if your plants are sitting down inside this tub. Better to have the main tub of the container act as a "lid" you can take on and off of your grow.

If you are going to scrog, I would put the lights on the top, not the side. The 40G you mention would give you ample space to put four lamps up "top" - the top in this case would, in fact, be the bottom of the 40g tub. You can fit four of those plus reflectors on the "top" of your 40g container.

One Fulham Workhorse 8 and 4x55w PL-L 4100k bulbs would do you fine. You could get another 4x55w PL-L lamps at 3000k and use them to flower if you like - but the 4100k lamps are proven to be effective for both veg and flowering. The phosphor profile on PL-L is not as distinct as in say, a HPS. So color temp is as much marketing as it is an accurate decription of the color of the light.

If you want to go horizontal, I strongly recommend getting 4 miro reflectors. The 2G11 sockets here are fine if you are putting the lamps horizontally, else get the lockable Etlin Daniels noted in the prior post. You will want, if you can find them, a lamp support clip for the bulb. The Etlin part # is LCM-2G11-HP-SC. They are about $1.00 a piece. You can just use some wire if you like - but having the clip is nice. You'll have to special order those at an alectrical supply store, but AH Supply sells them too. (For that matter, they will sell you 2G11 sockets too - probably save money on shipping by the time it all works out rather than order form another company.) You can order those at the same time as their reflectors.

I'd still get the rest of your ballast and lamps from 1000bulbs.com though. You'll save close to $100 that way.

 

[fatigues]

I looked at the stuff at AH and Cool lights and for the price, I don't see how I could have gotten a better deal.

Depends on the reflector shape. An efficient 55w PL-L miro reflector has some rather odd bends in it. It's not easy to see in that pic what the contours and angles on the interior of the reflector is. The gain from the reflector shape is very significant if it has the correct angles.

I agree that the price is pretty good. About the same, really, by the time you add in the cost of reflectors from AH, so that's a definite plus. Size wise, I'm not sure that's ideal for how he plans to use his lights. He'll lose a few inches of vertical height using that reflector housing. Price on their 6500k 55W PL-L lamps is very decent though. Hell - I might pick up a few of them from there It would help if they didn't call them T5's!

 

[LEDGro]

Hey fatiges thanks for the upside down idea. I was trying to figure out how to get around that. I was thinking a hempy medium for my substrate. The plants would be in a 22x22x7 tray. My plan was to attach the scrog screen and the tray to each other so I could hopefully pull the whole thing out of the container for maintenance.

As you are probably aware, the hempy method has a hole about 2" from the bottom to allow water to escape. I was planning on running a 1/2 tube from there to a hole in the base of the container so I could capture runoff outside of the container.

I will need to think about having it upside down. Once again it sounds like the best option but would look kinda odd. I plan on having this in a closet with other boxes, some servers and other crap and have it just blend it.

 

[ScrubNinja]

I would not have thought about hanging the bulbs vertically. Are there any grows that show this setup?

Alls I gots is this 24w grow. Pic is a few days old but I'll be flipping soon. There's other lights in the cab on other plants so it's not strictly pl-l light though. And it's 24w, but fudge it, this is the micro forum



Also, epic posts, Fatigues. Do you have a thread up for your PiLLars yet? Will you make one when it's all finished?

Good luck LEDGro.

 

[fatigues]

Also, epic posts, Fatigues. Do you have a thread up for your PiLLars yet? Will you make one when it's all finished?

Good luck LEDGro.

Not yet finished 'em. We're working on some razzle dazzle for separate lockable compartments for DWC and utility area. As stealthy as interlocking 5 foot tall borged barrel parts can be

When it's done, I'll post with full DIY tutorial, pics and hyperlink parts list. I think people should always be able to easily find the crap they see posted here

 

[LEDGro]

Thanks! Now I just need to figure out how to add some LED's to this grow or possibly change my name to PLLGro