first attempt at hydro, pH is not my friend!!!

[FRIENDinDEED]

i am sure at some point this is going to turn into a diary of some sort but for right now i am dire need of help, so here are some factors u guys should know followed by my problem:

1. i am using the same nutes from my soil grow, the guano co./ super tea mix/5-10-2, vinegar for pH down, dynagro's KLN rooting hormone for the clones. nothing bigger than clones yet, all my moms are in soil and doing absolutely fine (one i thought was a male is actually fem and im in the process of air layering it right now, stems way too long to repot it)

2. i just finished my cloner: DIY, 54 site, RR plugs go straight into the drilled holes, 3 x air stone sticks/wands, double outlet airpump. painted the top, black duct tape for the container, it holds 5gl. its light tight and i have nothing building up in it, i check it constantly and the water is clear as day as when i first put it in. i pH'd and nute'd the water b4 i put it in the cloner.

3. for flowering, im running an ecoplus 396gph to dripper rings to 16 site hydroton filled 2gl grow bags from 27gl res

what im doing or my theory is that if i can get my cloner working as far as pH and whatever other problems may arise, then i should be ok with the bigger grow BUT i cant get my pH to . . .well. . .pH properly!! the cuts seem to be ok when i first put them in but after a while the lower leaves start to turn yellow and the rest of the cut top gets a little lighter green (a lot lighter than when i first put it in).

i decided to give it some more nutes as another experienced grower told me that the yellowing means that the plants arent getting enough nutes. i check pH and find that it goes right back up to 8.0. so i add vinegar to bring it down along with the super tea.

PROBLEM: i just checked my pH in the cloner out of curiosity and sure enough it was right back up to 8.0 (never higher or lower).

-how do you guys get your pH to stabilize? what am i doing wrong here?
-is there a relationship between the water and the RR plugs that im not aware of?
-do i need/use stronger/weaker nutes?
-is there something i could switch out/ add/ get rid of?
-if i need to how much time should i let them be under constant light b4 i switch to a regimen?
-is the vinegar good for soil grows and not hydro?
-what could cause the pH to shoot up like that?

the grower that i get info from is and has always used the GH series and never had to use any other probes or other means of testing and his cannabis is the greatest, even the bagseed weed that he cranks out is primo.

he says after a while the plant lets you know whats going on, and i know that to be true since its what/how i learned about my plants during my soil grows .he loves hydro cause its set it and forget it, BUT im finding that im doing more setting and checking than ever before!!

***my water pH out of the tap is 8.0
***i have a 35gl res that i keep to the side and the water is constantly being bubbled, so no chlorine issues, i dont adjust the pH in the main res until im ready to use it.
***right now im running PRINCESS DIESEL and i'll be adding SSH as soon as i can get this pH shit under control
***lights for my cloner stay on 24/7

 

[Old time lurker]

I've read a couple of posts where someone more in the know than I ( Freezerboy maybe?) said that vinegar was not a very good organic solution for ph down, just for that reason...the effects didn't last very long.

 

[!!!]

Vinegar isn't good. Get a pH down product (it's phosphoric acid. prob cheaper to buy in pure form).

Search for the "water chemistry" thread by BigToke. Are you letting your water sit (preferably with an air stone) for 24-72 hours before using it? Right out of the tap the pH is changing, so that's a bad time to check and begin balancing it and adding nutes. Maybe try distilled to see if it makes a diff?

 

[FreezerBoy]

Strike three for vinegar. It, baking soda and other kitchen remedies are for emergencies only as they last just long long enough to run to the store and back. pH Down is dirt cheap, highly effective and long lasting. While "pure form" may be cheaper, note the diluted stuff in the bottle is used at a rate of 1-2 drops per gallon. Remember to add pH down AFTER the nutes as nutes are acidic and will drop pH on their own.

I'll second your buddies recommendation for GH. I can't say it's the best as it's all I've ever used but, it works great, no troubles. FloraMicro, FloraBloom and pH down is all I add to tap water

 

[RockyMountainHi]

I'd question all your additives.

Vinegar - while it sounds good - don'r work for sheet mang,,,,

your nutes - can't say,, but when I went to hydro from soil - I changed from FoxFarms to PBP.

pH is stabile and the plants are happy.


Your water is different - so you will need to test and guess to find the best mix.

 

[SoCaliSmoker]

All water is different, some areas have higher chlorine, some rural areas are well-water only, depends on your water. As suggested by " !!! " it's best to get a PH down product. If you have the cash, you can also invest in R.O for your water. My water kind of sucks out here but I still get great buds. Glad your only problem is your P.H. A lot of other growers have waaaaaay other issues and yours can be fixed. Good luck on the harvest!

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

GOOD JESUS, DONT I FEEL LIKE THE ASS IN WOLFS CLOTHING

GOOD JESUS, DONT I FEEL LIKE THE ASS IN WOLFS CLOTHING

ok i get it now, i was really really hoping that i could go with the vinegar and my other nutes for the hydro as well, but guess not. this run i think i'll play it safe and go with the GH series.

i already have the micro and the grow, so all i'll need is the bloom, pH down and im good to go. money is not the worry it was really me wanting to just use what i have and keep things organic. im really not into making the teas and all that. not that i "got it like that" or anything but just buying the big bottle from the guano company seemed to be sooo much easier.

i tried to upload some pics of my setup so it could be critiqued but they didn't take, i would have been so pissed if i would have had to scrap it. today i'll be washing my hydroton of and getting the big cad ready for the lilun's once they are good to go. i just noticed so new growth as well, so with your information and that new development i have renewed vigor!!!

!!!please be kind as i curse a whole lot, i mean a whole fucking lot, dont take it the wrong way though!! he he he

FreezerBoy - dude what the fuck are you some kinda damned hydro super hero?!? lmao Old time lurker just mentions your name and here you appear!!! but thanks though seriously you guys. and would you know if the adding of teh vinegar or any pH down after the nutes would work for soil as well? i always did it the reverse and my plants (in soil of course) pretty much always sprung back to life in spite of.

RockyMountainHi -the nutes i have are from THE GUANO COMPANY (don't worry, the caps are to make my inner grower feel better about using the nutes- lmao), but what i have is made for hydro. i read it in the advice column of hightimes a long time ago, the suggestion was a soil less mix with a hydroponic nutes regimen for the best results and it hasn't let me down yet.

!!! -you know, with you mentioning that, i meant to go over there and read that damned water chemistry post, but i got caught up with this friggin vanity/bathroom sink conversion thing i promised the wife i would do today and got lost in searching for information for that. dont worry, i"ll kick myself square in the ass for you. and btw sometimes ive been known to forget and have my water sitting for a full week completely bubbled, lmao, so no worries there. ive seen chlorine damage and that shit aint pretty at all!!

SoCaliSmoker -brother you aint kiddin about those damned horror stories. i'll tell you lil story as to why i was worried about all of this; my res was always left uncovered and bubbling with a water pump on the inside just for flow reasons. i guess i wasn't using it as fast as i was while i was working with soil and it ended up turning a very dark, if not black, color' so much so that i couldn't see that damned bottom of the res!! scared the shit out of me and i was thinking " shit! is this what i have to deal with when i convert to hydro?" but its all good though, i keep it covered now, and bubbled constantly.

i spoke to my buddy the other night and he was saying that maybe i should consider the actual container as a cause for the pH dilemma i was having. i knew vinegar worked just didnt know it was a temp thing

while i have your ears, so far i have had the lights on the clones for about a good week+ now, so i was wondering when would be, or better yet, when would have been a good time to switch 18/6? im looking at the cuts and its dawning on me that maybe they are not really reacting to anything because they are constantly having to utilize energy with the lights constantly being on and all.

well like i thought i may just turn this into a hydro diary and that would be it for me as far as diaries, ive got two soil grows under my belt, a failed teaching attempt and enough unused supplies to make a couple of grow systems (seriously, i made a six site hydro tub the other day out of sheer boredom, pump, air pump/stone, hydro corals, light trellis to hang light , the works, been thinking about putting it on ebay) maybe one hydro-chem and one hydro-organic will put me in the walk of growers.

i really want to find a patient that i could supply, so that my skills could be put to better use and not just for myself.

i'll be back with updates (once i figure this pic shit out!!!), stay tuned. . . . .

 

[Uncle Remus]

Hydro is SUPER EASY...Go to Rez's "recipe" thread...Follow the recipe, watch your pH, and you'll grow KICK ASS smoke...I've been using it, albeit tweaked, for about 1 year and find it works fantastic...My pH stays level until around the 5th-6th day of the week, then goes up .5 or so...You're changing nutes every week so a minor pH fluctuation for 1-2 days before a nute change won't hurt anything

I run bubblers or DWC...I find that after a nute change the pH will rise slightly (.5) in approx 24 hrs...I simply check and correct it the next day and it stays stable for the rest of the week...From then on (after the 2nd day) I simply add back ph 6.0 water to my res...GRAVY brother

Not sure if you stated if you where a newbie or not, and I didn't see what you were running, but I highly recommend DWC...Its super simple, you have direct control of the root zone and whats going on there...Supplies are cheap and easily attainable, and I get superior results when using Rez's recipe

Also not sure but I thought it stated that you use a nute formula in your cloner??? I highly recommend NO nutes to ANY cuttings until they are well rooted...I've fried many a clone by feeding too early and too strong a mix...Straight pH 6.0 water is all I use now for any cloning and seed starting

 

[choch]

"Gramma Engy's" Fulvic drops the ph dramatically in my experience. Seems nicer to add something that benefits the plants when you need to lower the ph.

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

Uncle Remus -thanks for droppin by, and i will definitely look up Rez's recipe. ive gotta a couple grows under the belt with organic soil, but yes i am a true newb when it comes to hydro (wanted to go hydro when i first started but "the great flood of '02 resonates in my mind! lol). taking on the challenge now i always knew that i was dealing with some really funky water to begin with, but when what i was doing wasn't working at all, i mean AT ALL, then i started to panic. but i knew you guys would put me back on track.
im definitely gonna take that clone advice and be easy with them now that i can see where my problems lie. the clones i have are yellowing some, but nothing that they cant survive until i get the pH down. to be honest, i started out with DWC, had total/complete faith in it, but after that flooding i decided to take it back a notch and get a good couple grows under my belt first with soil. my buddy has recently gone complete DWC and as you are reaping the benefits.

most of the strains i have in stock are sat's so im gonna go hydro with them to finish them out quicker. thank god everyone is chiming in though, cause now i can throw my SSH back into the mix the one elite strain that i was blessed with and i dont know where to start with the benefits of that strain!

choch - i will look into the "Gramma Engy's" and see where i can get it from. im in a more affluent growing community now so things like that are to be had at ease, and thanks for stoppin in, i always appreciate the help.

thanks once again people, i am honestly gettin excited about hydro again. my first boost was my cloner, its light tight now so now when i check i see crystal clear water . just gotta tweak it cause not all of the plugs are getting the moisture from the popping bubbles.

i think im gonna start tinkering with the wife's camera so i can start gettin pics up. i know some people dont like to bother with certain aspects of hydro systems but the DIY of the grow is something i really enjoy, keeps me busy and active and i get to reap the fruits of my labor in what i consider a "full circle" sort of way. the dripper rings, the plumbing, anything i put my hand to i take pride in and it all has meaning and purpose. im thinking about hydro again and im doin the old "hulk hogan come back ring dance" (you remember the arm pumping, parading around the ring? lmao, i just havent gotten to the part where he stops, look sat the crowd and starts whalin' back at his opponent! lmao)

and i also have to realize that while i was in my lil funk, ICMAG went through this change and i havent really gone over the site to see how things are done now. i saw the growers faq which i actually let out a sigh of relief at seeing that it was finally put together. pontiac was/is doin a great job with collectin' all those threads but its still good to have some place to "sit a newb down and make em read" like it was done at OVERGROW back in the day.

this may be a good title to this hydro grow. once i can get pics up i thin i'll ask the great mods to move this to the diary forum and continue on

im back people!!!!!

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

ok folks pics of the cloner ive got goin

 

[SuperSizeMe]

FiD....Tri-Stater here with the SAME high pH issues....natural lemon is what I use....no issues and it's organic.

You'll get'er straight.

Peace Homie

SSM

Oh yeah...welcome back Kotter

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

FiD....Tri-Stater here with the SAME high pH issues....natural lemon is what I use....no issues and it's organic.

You'll get'er straight.

Peace Homie

SSM

Oh yeah...welcome back Kotter

DUDE!!! natural lemon?! you gotta tell me how. i was using vinegar at first but ive come to learn that, that is good for a quick fix and not the long run.

i went and got the rest of the GH series ( i had the flora and the micro, so went and got the bloom and pH down) and replaced the water in the cloner. i asked my grow shop if i could use the organic nutes that i have along with the pH down and he said it was cool. it made sense to me, but i wanted to be sure. im gonna go with the GH series for now since its my first real attempt but after this im definitely gonna go total organic and maybe even DWC recirculating of course

i acutally saw some new growth on a tester clone i cut. its the only one that had roots, but it wasn't growing any taller. i looked the other day, i would say its been day 3 since i changed out the water and things are looking a lil better but that one cut is showing signs of new growth at last.

another grower suggested that i take pics weekly of everything so i can see any changes or differences that may occur, but i think i'll just wait for root growth, once i see that then i'll start the 18/6.

i also was air layering a nice tall PRINCESS DIESEL plant that i thought was male, but it was a female since i had about 6" of length between the bottom node and the pot surface i wanted to air layer and replant but it wasn't working out, so i just cut it down then cut it in to and threw it in with the rest of the clones. the SSH beans im gonna start in a while, the RR plugs stay moist so i may just pop the seeds in them and see what happens

i'll take pics of everything tomorrow. . . .

 

[Greenmopho]

OP, you can use the GH organics line, if you want to stay organic with hydro. I will be switching to them, after my current crop is harvested. Its completely organic and given a vegan rating. There are more supplements like humic acid, cal mag, etc that you have to add. There is the Botanicare product line, also. I have used the Liquid Karma from Botanicare, as an additive for tradition Hydro, with good results.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/blog/2009/06/22/general-organics/

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

OP, you can use the GH organics line, if you want to stay organic with hydro. I will be switching to them, after my current crop is harvested. Its completely organic and given a vegan rating. There are more supplements like humic acid, cal mag, etc that you have to add. There is the Botanicare product line, also. I have used the Liquid Karma from Botanicare, as an additive for tradition Hydro, with good results.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/blog/2009/06/22/general-organics/

i was thinking of that aswell, as far as using their floralicious line. the vegan rating i had no clue about, but thats the kinda advice im looking for.

i take this growing thing very serious and will eventually be adding veggies to my cab on a regular as well. if im gonna be ingesting anything i want it to be as close to natural as possible for me and my family (veggies for fam, cannabis for me!! lol)

thanks for dropping in!

 

[vintner]

Hey FID Good to see you round again Bro I had the same problem w/my municipal water supply. pH 8+. Switched to rain water, but then I do soil, and only go through a few gallons a week. Sounds like you're getting things worked out.
Stay safe n high

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

Hey FID Good to see you round again Bro I had the same problem w/my municipal water supply. pH 8+. Switched to rain water, but then I do soil, and only go through a few gallons a week. Sounds like you're getting things worked out.
Stay safe n high

whassup bruh, ive seen you around while i was trollin during my funk. yeah im back doing/trying this hydro thing, but who knows, soil is looking better and better man, things are taking their sweet time.

its been about 3 weeks and no new growth on the cuts at all, i have one thats doing really well, but that pretty much just started. im thinking about just getting that one started in its own bucket while i wait for the others to show some form of rooting at all.

i picked one clone up to see if it was bound in teh plug at all and there was nothing, not even root buds, so i decided to put some rootone on them (a rooting hormone powder that has come through for me so far) and see what gives in about a week or so. ( i ended up picking and pulling at all of them and there was nothing on any of the cuts, 'bout 16+ of em if im not mistaken)

***my cloner set up is one where i have the plugs forced into holes of the top of the container and bubbles popping form underneath to keep the plugs moist. they have been staying moist for the whole time, but yet and still nothing is showing.

-does this sound like something thats worth doing?

-are the cuts getting too much moisture that way and not being able to root?

-theyre sativas does that even matter?

-the water is nuted and pH'd and i added some KLN rooting hormone to the mix?

-is there something more i can be doing?

-theyre under 24/7 floros, should i change them to 18/6 to get things going?

im thinking that this hydro stuff just aint for me. three weeks and nothing new yet? man i dont know. i know that i would have been half way to 12/12r by now with soil. my moms (even the plants that i think are male1) are doing way better than what ive got going on now with this hydro stuff.

seriously im gonna give it 2 more weeks and if nothing by then im loading up the 1 gal bags with my soil and stuff the shit outta my cab!!

i guess i"ll do smoe more searches on how long things tend to take, but like i said, i would have been half way to 12/12 by now. . ..

i"ll check back in peace

 

[Greenmopho]

FiD, as far as your cuttings, can you lightly pull on the stems and feel if they have any roots at all? I mean if they give some resistance when you pull on them, chances are they have roots. Secondly, when I switched to hydro, I probably killed a thousand cuttings before I got good at it, so keep trying and dont give up. Also your setup looks good but for the first day or two after you take them off of your mother, I would only give them half light. They need to adjust to being off of the mother before they can handle full light. Are you using a humidity dome, rooting hormone, some sort of cloning solution, i.e. olivia's or clonex and some sort of damping off agent?

When I take cuttings, I use either rapid rooters or 2*2 grodan A-OK rockwool plugs(5.5 pH conditioned with Olivia's cloning solution),in a prop tray with a humidity dome and I usually see roots in about 9-12 days. As soon as I cut it from the bush, I place it a container with the Olivia's and let it sit in there for about 5 minutes or however long it takes for me to get all of the cuttings I want. Then I dip the ends, about a 1/2 inch, in the rooting hormone, I prefer Clonex, then immediately transplant to my medium. After I have them all transplanted, I spray the top of the medium and stalk with Aquashield to prevent damping off, then i put them under a 2*4 T5 on half power for the first 2 days, kick up the power on the 3rd day and I dont uncover them for the first 5 days, only changing the air in the dome out through the vents, which remain closed except when changing out the air. On the fifth day when I uncover them, its only for about 5 minutes and then I recover them, but now I leave the vents on top open. I gradually start leaving the cover off for more time everyday after day 5, this helps condition them to the room outside of the dome, by day 8 or 9, I start leaving the dome off completely. Good luck!!

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

FiD, as far as your cuttings, can you lightly pull on the stems and feel if they have any roots at all? I mean if they give some resistance when you pull on them, chances are they have roots. Secondly, when I switched to hydro, I probably killed a thousand cuttings before I got good at it, so keep trying and dont give up. Also your setup looks good but for the first day or two after you take them off of your mother, I would only give them half light. They need to adjust to being off of the mother before they can handle full light. Are you using a humidity dome, rooting hormone, some sort of cloning solution, i.e. olivia's or clonex and some sort of damping off agent?

When I take cuttings, I use either rapid rooters or 2*2 grodan A-OK rockwool plugs(5.5 pH conditioned with Olivia's cloning solution),in a prop tray with a humidity dome and I usually see roots in about 9-12 days. As soon as I cut it from the bush, I place it a container with the Olivia's and let it sit in there for about 5 minutes or however long it takes for me to get all of the cuttings I want. Then I dip the ends, about a 1/2 inch, in the rooting hormone, I prefer Clonex, then immediately transplant to my medium. After I have them all transplanted, I spray the top of the medium and stalk with Aquashield to prevent damping off, then i put them under a 2*4 T5 on half power for the first 2 days, kick up the power on the 3rd day and I dont uncover them for the first 5 days, only changing the air in the dome out through the vents, which remain closed except when changing out the air. On the fifth day when I uncover them, its only for about 5 minutes and then I recover them, but now I leave the vents on top open. I gradually start leaving the cover off for more time everyday after day 5, this helps condition them to the room outside of the dome, by day 8 or 9, I start leaving the dome off completely. Good luck!!

whassup Greenmopho glad you stopped by and i'll explain all:

i went trolling around and did some searching and found a bubble cloner thread that yielded so much information it was bananas!!

first this i was doing wrong i guess was using what i already have and being that this is a hydro grow, i have to get my mind in tune to the things that are necessary for a hydro grow.

the way my cloner works is that its a bubble cloner, andi have to admit i havent seen to many bubble cloners that use RR plugs. most of them either have the cuts directly in the hole or in a neoprene plug.

-what ive done to rectify this was cut some neoprene plugs out of some neoprene flooring i had laying around from a past cloner project to fit into the existing holes of what i made.

-next thing i did was add a wate/aquarium heater to the cloner since the temps are damn near freezing where the cloner is kept (i really dont know why i thought that they would have been able to survive in that cold but oh well, you learn as you go i guess) so the rez temps are well in the 70 - 75 degree range

i took another fresh cut popped that in on monday and put it in a spot in the cloner by itself; now that things are changed up i want to see if i get a proper reaction or growth rate form it. the other clones i was still able to just pull them out and nothing has shown as far as rooting or even rooting bumps. the older cuts i think have pretty much gone through all they can stand and are just absorbing fluids and nutes like cut flowers; although they dont seem to be doing bad they are stagnated right now so i am reluctant to say that they arent doing good either.

havent been able to take any pics as of late, but i will be throwing up one or two of the changes i made tomorrow. i have to admit it looks like a pretty strong setup and by no means am i taking credit for some new design. everything i learned, i learned from someone elses design on IC, i just end put putting various concepts into one in order to get the best results possible and crate teh most stable conditions for growing.

the stems that i took the cuttings from are already starting to grow back and i'll be able to fill the cloner to the max the next round of cuts i take. my goal is and always has been to get a turn key grow going, but this time i aint stoppin' for no one and i want cuts coming out the whazoo!!! the next time i wanna help someone out theyll get 5 clones form me, thats my max on that.

*** i have one cut that has rooted in the RR plug that has withstood all teh fluctuations. it is one of the original cuts i took and even under all of the bad pH, cold temps and over saturation shes still holdin on strong. that clone has been the one i look at to see if things are doing any better. if that one is good than it makes sense that the conditions are better for the rest of the cuts. at first it had roots but the growth was stagnant, i pH'd and it started to pick up a little and actually showed new growth, once i added the heater, its doing even better now and even starting to green up a whole lot day by day; so since that one seems to be "the bad bitch on the block" i use her reactions to give me some indication as to whats really going on in the cloner.

im watching the new cut and hoping for the best, the first round of cuts have been in there for a while now but im not giving up on them yet. theyve got two more weeks before i call it a day, reason being, by then ill be able to take more cuts to replace those and add even more.

my flower cab hydro setup is ready to go but i haven't started to officially run it yet since i dont have any plants to put in it, so this cloner is the beginning of it all for me, so although i may feel like giving up on it i wont. i actually have room at the top to put another one in so once things are where they need to be i am going to build a new/another one and keep clones of different strains so i can have some to sell/give to others as well.

when i pretty much moved my grow to this other spot and took on a partner it threw me for a loop and i learned alot from the experience.. but now im back in the game and going hydro, im going hard with it!!!

hopefully it will be a design that others can recreate and keep their grows going as well. its a good design because it can give you clones that can go in either a soil or hydro setup

 

[KUSHT4TUS]

Household remedies are not stable. Listen to those who know hydro best -
They all responded on page one - Just wait till you add the nutes THEN worry.
If you are still not in manageable levels then add PH DOWN (thats what its for !)