Experts: Smart grid poses privacy risks

[Blimey]

Isn't this data confidential?

i.e. LEO can't access the data unless they already have reason to suspect you are growing, and will need a judge to sign off on it.

In which case it is no different than LEO using heat-detection equipment etc etc.

I used to design and write software for utility companies (electric, gas, water and phone), including "smart" metering software. In my experience, the utilities don't care what you use electric for. The more KWH the better, as is more money for them. The whole point of smart metering was so they didn't have to pay guys to check your meter manually. They have millions of customers, and the more automated they can make everything, the more money they save, and more profit they make.
All the utilities I had as clients intensely disliked doing stuff for LEO, as a member of staff has to spend lots of time extracting and preparing the data, which costs them money. LEO don't pay for the info, so more often than not, the utility company would insist on a warrant.
The utilities wouldn't want to pay a software house to write software to detect "suspicious" usage, as getting a software house to do anything costs mucho $$$$.

My computer runs 24/7. CPU plus monitor plus broadband plus wi-fi adds up. I often leave my TV on 24/7. Security lights...air con. It all adds up.

I will concede something running big wattage for exactly 12 hrs 0 mins ON then 12 hrs 0 mins OFF every day does look iffy. Personally, I "wobble" my lights up to an hour either way, but that's due to my laziness, and the way I have my grow set up rather than security concerns.

But my point is.....if they need (and get) a warrant to look at your usage, you are already f**ked, because they won't be asking for a warrant unless you are on their radar. They can't just mine confidential utility data willy-nilly.

 

[dongle69]

Unless the police get a subpoena/warrant for your power records, this doesn't really matter does it?

EDIT:
I didn't see the post above...

 

[Skip]

Unless the police get a subpoena/warrant for your power records, this doesn't really matter does it?

EDIT:
I didn't see the post above...

You would think so, wouldn't you. But NO!

It's no different from them monitoring the Internet 24/7.

If they want they can call up any reports that match a given pattern.

Say all reports that indicate 1500+ watts continuous usage 24/7.

They could add a couple more variables if they wanted.

In this case they are looking for suspicious patterns, once they find it, THEN they can go get a warrant to inspect the premises.

I don't see privacy laws covering this. Why? Cause many meters are visible to the public. So the information they collect could be considered in the public domain. I know it's stretching it a bit, but they could go this route.

And if they don't have the legal authority for it at the moment, once there are enough smart meters out there and LEO figures out they can tip off grows do you think they're not going to ask for legislation that allows them to sift thru these reports?

Certainly if they already suspect someone and have another kind of evidence or complaint they can probably access the electric usage report to gain enough evidence for a search warrant.

The point is this is new technology, and getting the info doesn't really invade one's privacy. It's not like listening to a private conversation. It is a bit like using infra-red, but since that can reveal more info than they're looking for, it can be considered invasive, more than looking at a report would be.

Also by using infra-red you've already targeted an individual residence, perhaps without sufficient cause. Whereas a search thru records for suspicious electric usage doesn't start with a target or a presumption of guilt on anyone's part.

Another possible avenue for LEO is to do what they did with banks, who must report any unusual activity on an account or cash deposits exceeding a certain amount. They can just legislate a similar law for electric companies who must report unusual usage for further investigation by the police or Feds.

 

[dongle69]

It doesn't work like that with PG&E in California, fortunately.
Gotta have a warrant/subpoena.

 

[Skip]

Everyone in NorCal should note this:

On July 20, 2006, California's energy regulators approved a program to roll out conventional meters retrofit with communications co-processor electronics to 9 million gas and electric household customers in the Northern California territory of PG&E. These meters report electricity consumption on an hourly basis. This enables PG&E to set pricing that varies by season and time of the day, rewarding customers who shift energy use to off-peak periods. The peak pricing program will start out on a voluntary basis, and the full rollout is expected to take five years. [4]. The smart grid also allows PG&E to give customers timing and pricing options for upload to the grid (see vehicle-to-grid).

 

[intlplayr]

Yes they are in use today...so sounds like its time to brush up on your hardware and 900mhz protocol hacking skillz if your going to have one installed ;-)

I like that idea. Point me in the right direction

 

[dongle69]

Everyone in NorCal should note this:

That is pretty cool.
Those of us that run our lights at night will save money.

 

[Blimey]

I don't see privacy laws covering this. Why? Cause many meters are visible to the public. So the information they collect could be considered in the public domain. I know it's stretching it a bit, but they could go this route.

Many meters are, but they aren't smart meters. Whole point of them is to avoid having a box outside your house that a guy has to come round and read every few months. Or one that LEO can read as he wanders round your 'hood.

How many private households in the US using electric? 80 million? More?

How many businesses in the US using electric? Many using LOTS of electric.

Each household and business producing many records every day - to produce a graph like the one shown, you need one record for every timing interval - be it each minute, 1/4 hr, whatever. Billions of records per month.

A lot of data to look at.....A lot of innocuous things that "could" be MJ grows.

I don't know about the US, but here in the UK, we are already at the stage where the police have to cherry-pick what grows they bust, as it is such a time-and-manpower consuming job to pull down a grow, bag and tag everything etc etc. And there's all those other murders, burglaries, assaults etc etc that cut down on their time.

So the cop goes to the judge and says...."While we were trawling through everyone's electric records, we found these 4,752,806 households and businesses that COULD possibly be suspicious. We've filled out 4,752,806 search warrants, and we just need you to sign them all. We'll have another few million next month, so we'd appreciate you getting on it ASAP".


I can't see it. Isn't there a probable cause needed? I don't think an en-masse analysis of millions of supposedly confidential records qualifies as probable cause.

Yes, they can use this data to help get the warrant...maybe. Even if they don't need a warrant to get the data in the first place. But my guess is, if you are not on the radar already, this won't be the one thing that tips the scales.

 

[intlplayr]

In BC it would. Although yes they are busy enough as it is currently if they get a report from teh power company claiming unusual electrical consumption behaviour they do put it on their list to inspect for "city safety inspections" they give oyu 24 hours notice for these and are more towards a cash grab for teh city than laying criminal charges in the way of walking through and making a list of everything that is not up to code and needs to be fixed before habitable once agan, usually totalling up to 20K or so in fees with 5K going to the city for troubling them...

 

[Throwgar]

That graph scares the hell out of me. I'm a software engineer involved with signal processing, and with that kind of detail thrown into one giant database, I bet they could have a computer monitor all of the signals, and pick out EXACTLY, down to the appliance, what you're using for electricity. It won't matter if you stagger their usage, with enough resolution, they could tell what KIND of blender you're using, much less how much HID wattage you're running, and when.

I don't think it's too much to wory about, since that info is only requersted by LEO is they already have you in their sights. Stay out of the sights, and the electric company could care less. After all, YOU are their best customer.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Just a hypothetical question.

Since it is possible to transmit signals on electric lines. I assume that is how smart meters "talk" with HQ.. Could we broadcast and muck up that signal?

I saw some time ago that people can use a device that allows a phone to plug into the electric socket and work like a phone from any electric plug in the house.

In fact I understand that data transmition is very possible on high voltage lines and they already do send data over electric grids..

This is an interesting topic to say the least.. Just how much information about our lives and activities can be taken from the "signals" or "noise" on our electric wires coming from our homes. I don't know but i imagine some things can be known like if we are running specific equipment like a 1k ballast or maybe a specific pattern can be determined for say an inline fan or such..

If Americans are looking at the slow and steady change to American fascism will we even do something?

There is a true story on how if i take a frog and put it in a pan of hot water it will jump right out but if I put a frog in a pan of cold water and then heat slowly to a boil that frog may stay there and die not getting the news that it is slowly boiling since the change is so gradual. It was some experiment i read about.

 

[dongle69]

If you can jam a cell phone, you can jam one of these.
They will come out and visit you, though.
From PG&E:
Relays receive electric meter reads via radio frequency and relay the reads to access points.
An electric network device transfers electric meter reads to PG&E’s head-end system via a secure cellular network.

 

[HIGHGROOVE]

hey dongle the program u want to check ino is the e6 program thru pge that could save you some big bucks that plus care...

 

[dongle69]

Thanks.
PG&E told me they would need to install a special meter to get the e6 rates.
Smart meters are coming to my area in a few years, so I can wait.

 

[rootfingers]

The electric company knowing when my girl is blow drying her hair and I am starting the coffee maker seems like a major invasion of privacy. With all that information they are able to see through walls.

 

[bigbrokush]

Solar is the only way to go now

 

[dongle69]

and wind...and water...and....

 

[mrwags]

The electric company knowing when my girl is blow drying her hair and I am starting the coffee maker seems like a major invasion of privacy. With all that information they are able to see through walls.

This threat is very real and the technology to see through wall's has been around for over 5 years now. Yes they have it and Yes there is an Area 51 so with all the advancements they (the US Government) has gotten over the years (to de-engineer) why is that so hard to believe? It's not simply a storage shed and they know more about us than ANY OF YOU wanna know.


Mr.Wags

 

[jaded1]

in britain at the moment they are trying to pass a law under the pretence of anti terorism where it will no longer need a judge just a senior police officer or government official and every site you visit every phone call you make will be recorded and stored,big brother seems to of taken over in britain,you cant go anywhere without being on camera,every phone call,e-mail,text is recorded(if there trying to pass the law you can bet it's already being done)now with smart meters and helicopters flying around all day they will know exactly what your doing in your home.very sad

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[Graham Purwatt]

the big part that scares me is here the cable company ,garbage collectors and the electric company all work together to identify grows.i'm pretty sure they wouldn't require a warrant to look at anything.hell with this,i'm moving to a med state in the next couple years before they install these things.colorado or cali,here i come